So called dieselpunk

[Captain Brandsson]

Steampunk does have a more victorian europe look to it (though you could have american steampunk, we didn't exist in a vacume back then either) Deiselpunk seems more WW2, 40's and 50's  style, art deco, Bioshock, Soviet technology looks really deiselpunk to me too (ever read The Red Star?)  steampunk has victorian gentlemen and ladies all dressed up and using big, loud steam driven machines, while deiselpunk has more rough, down and dirty men and women with big, loud, deisel powerd machines.

Deiselpunk makes me thing of WW2, bombers, jazz, insane Nazi experiments, and pinups, while Steampunk makes me think civil war, wild wild west, revolvers, loud steam-driven technology, and more insane experiments, just with a guy in a top hat and monocle rather than a little mustache and bad haircut.

A fairly good summation.

[Ottens]

Hey, it's good to see dieselpunk discussed again!

[neon_suntan]

I suppose with the wacky Nazi angle you can have all the 'facts' about

the the secret base at the Antarctic - Neu Schwabenland
the German-Japanese flying saucers -

not to mention

lots more Lovecraft
the last gasps of the Old West
lots of Jorge Luis Borges

as well as everything else folk have said

Plus leather jackets and black clothes became more prevalent in society... yay

[jringling]

I am not trying to pick on anyone's views here, but why does steam power make people think of "elegance" and diesel power make people think of "dirt and grime"? Coal fire is not clean! Engineers and stokers would get just a dirty as an engine mechanic... The "Ladies and Gentleman" of the steampunk world would be doing the same things as the "Ladies and Gentleman" of the dieselpunk world... not getting dirty!

I may be alittle defensive due to my love of Art Deco... just look at those lines...

[Captain Brandsson]

I am not trying to pick on anyone's views here, but why does steam power make people think of "elegance" and diesel power make people think of "dirt and grime"? Coal fire is not clean! Engineers and stokers would get just a dirty as an engine mechanic... The "Ladies and Gentleman" of the steampunk world would be doing the same things as the "Ladies and Gentleman" of the dieselpunk world... not getting dirty!

I may be alittle defensive due to my love of Art Deco... just look at those lines...

I am guessing its (partly) a genre archetype thing.

[Orwin]

honestly, before getting associate with the crowd at all, steampunk always seemed to have a lot more down and dirty cobbled-together feel to it than I now often see being portrayed.


I'd really strip it down to basically a difference in era styles, than technology base or class portrayal.


But then, I'm still not certain I'm ready to qualify diesel as a genre of it's own.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

As an owner-operator, not to mention mechanic, of my own Diesel Semi-Tractor, I can tell you from experience that anything that even gets near a diesel engine gets absolutely filthy in short order.

T.

[MissTwist]

Jringling: I associate it with dirt adn grime because a lot of the larger army vehicles were/are run on diesel fuel and my Dad's an army mechanic so guess what I had a lot of exposure to as a child ^_^

I think that and the fact that the very tone of a lot of the noir style novels just gives that feeling of dirt and grime in a much darker sense that the steampunk genres do.

Orwin: As someone who is defineitely diesel not steam I assure you there's a definite difference. I'm not even sure quite how to explain it but the general feel of it is entirely different despite there being huge overlaps in the community and spirit of the two. I think you'll find teh two will seperate further as teh diesel community grows larger but at teh moment we have no one to really associate with that understands us quite teh way teh steam community does so you're stuck with us :p

[E.A. Claringbold]

Orwin: As someone who is defineitely diesel not steam I assure you there's a definite difference. I'm not even sure quite how to explain it but the general feel of it is entirely different despite there being huge overlaps in the community and spirit of the two. I think you'll find teh two will seperate further as teh diesel community grows larger but at teh moment we have no one to really associate with that understands us quite teh way teh steam community does so you're stuck with us :p

I thought we were already pretty separated. (and sure it feels different. Dieselpunk has a lot from serial adventures and noir to draw off from).
And I don't think we mind being stuck with dieselpunks. 
(I mean, I like it) >.>

[nitromidas]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For example:

I came... Seriously, that is one beautiful car.

I do believe that is the car from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen...

Right, I'll try not to step on too many toes here, but I have a few thoughts on the Dieselpunk-issue. First off, trying to perfect the definition of either genre seems to me a little like stacking marbles. However, there are some defining traits.

First off, I do not see either as post-apocalyptic. Steam is full of optimism and marvel over the marvelous technology, while Diesel has a distinctly pre-apocalyptic theme - the advent of the atomic bomb, the growth of the Third Reich, the post-Depression economic growth, etc. Punk is, IMO, two things here, it's one part attitude, and one part empty suffix.

Dieselpunk to me is, as has been said before, Rocketeer, Nazies, Art Deco and radios. Dieselpunk is also not as [treads lightly] over the top as Steampunk. A Dieselpunk-gentleman will often get approving nods from those who remember WWII.

Did I mention that while I won't claim to be neither Steam nor Diesel, much less punk, I feel more at home in the "Dieselpunk" genre than in real or faux Victoriana.

That said, I really like both as a source of inspiration, be it for writing, roleplaying, crafting or dress, and as a vain man, I always admire someone who manges to pull off an outlandish attire.

For all the differenses between the two, there are also quite a few similarities. Perhaps the most important one is that neither is a from-the-box culture, neither is mainstream, and both base themselves on a vide variety of inspirational sources. Perhaps most importantly, both look back to an age where technology still had promise, to a time where mankind didn't spend their lives with several ongoing, man-made Doomsday-scenarios hanging over its head.

These are some of my thoughts on the matter, as they are.

[Orwin]

MissTwist: I do see your point, however I still disagree with it. 

As one of those people that's been into all this stuff, both what people are calling steam and calling diesel, before I realized what that sort of thing was even called:  They're not very distinct from eachother.  There's a technology difference of less than a century, generally speaking, with a lot of overlap, as well as overlap of themes.  There are only a couple concepts that don't really occur in eachother, which is what distinguishes it as a subgenre.  Steampunk tends to contain more lighthearted mystical aspects at times, and and diesel more hardlined sci-fi concepts, but even there there's still a lot of overlap.

Thus:  subgenre.

[Hikaro Takayama]

Ya, there is, but it comes out like an old bud lite comercial:

Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"

Actually, ALUMINUM was more along the lines of the defining metal of the Dieselpunk era.... Hell, they made entire AIRPLANES out of it (well, it definitely featured heavily in the exterior, especially with the P-38 Lightnings and the B-17 Stratofortress).....

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Actually, and I don't want to sound like "Mr. Know-it-all," but the B-17 was called the "Flying Fortress," the B-29 was the "Super-Fortress," and the B-52 is the "Strato-Fortress." My favorite was between the B-29 and the B-52, the B-36 Peacemaker. It was the largest production airplane ever built, and carried its own little fighter plane (the Goblin) in a special bay.


Thistlewaite

[Atterton]

My god, the wings are put on backwards. Somebody quick tell the pilots! 

[Hikaro Takayama]

Actually, and I don't want to sound like "Mr. Know-it-all," but the B-17 was called the "Flying Fortress," the B-29 was the "Super-Fortress," and the B-52 is the "Strato-Fortress." My favorite was between the B-29 and the B-52, the B-36 Peacemaker. It was the largest production airplane ever built, and carried its own little fighter plane (the Goblin) in a special bay.


Thistlewaite

...I never was good at keeping all those "*.Fortress" planes straight, except by number and sight....  I'm more interested in fighters anyways. (The Germans had some crazy ones, including a rocket fighter that fired rocket clusters and the world's first jet fighter)

[The Kernel]

I'm going to seem even more geeky and "know it all", the first jet fighter was the "Gloster Meteor" , the first operational jet fighter was the Me262 (so I will agree it could be considered a moot point and ripe for a healthy discussion)

[Gunny001]

I'm going to seem even more geeky and "know it all", the first jet fighter was the "Gloster Meteor" , the first operational jet fighter was the Me262 (so I will agree it could be considered a moot point and ripe for a healthy discussion)

Not to 'out-geek' you, BUT...

(*Grin*)

The VERY first 'jet fighter' was, in fact, German - the He-178. It flew in September of 1939, while it was May of 1941 for the Gloster e.28/39 (NOT the Meteor, which was a later aircraft)

Here's the Heinkel:



...and the e.28/39:




(For those about to make the argument that the He-178 was a 'one-off', then I give you the Heinkel 280 - which flew in 1940, still before the Gloster, and 9 were made...)

[chironex]

Ya, there is, but it comes out like an old bud lite comercial:

Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"

Actually, ALUMINUM was more along the lines of the defining metal of the Dieselpunk era.... Hell, they made entire AIRPLANES out of it (well, it definitely featured heavily in the exterior, especially with the P-38 Lightnings and the B-17 Stratofortress).....

I was going to mention, does anyone know how good an idea it is to make a boiler from brass (or properly, copper) for a REAL steam train? Works fine for model engineering and small applications like a sewing machine engine seen in the Workshops Museum in Ipswich, but I'm sure there is a reason why real steam vehicles/vessels usually have steel ones.
I have a 1/144 XB-36 prop-jet and compared to any other 1/144 item in my collection it is the largest thing I have, apart from the USS Seawolf. It is one big plane.

[chironex]

Me?
As Man o War might say:
Wimps and posers LEAVE THE HALL!
Both are heavy metal with dirt and massive constructs and some rebelliousness to the characters however quiet or violent their acts.
Neither should be tied down to a time period.
Nor an architectural or design style.
other than that, dieselpunk is "GIMME FUEL GIMME FIRE GIMME THAT WHICH I DESIRE!"
Steampunk is "Give me Fuel, Give me Fire, Give me Water, Give me...... A bit.....[looks at watch]"

[Arceye]

The VERY first 'jet fighter' was, in fact, German - the He-178. It flew in September of 1939, while it was May of 1941 for the Gloster e.28/39 (NOT the Meteor, which was a later aircraft)

Here's the Heinkel:

             The He178 was no fighter, it was purely a test machine. There never was any intention to put it into production. The Germans may have later claimed for propaganda purposes that it was a production job, just as they did with a special speed record version of the Bf109. I've been reading the memoirs of 'The World's First Jet Pilot' Erich Warsitz, who worked for Heinkel and Von Braun.

[Kittybriton]

I was going to mention, does anyone know how good an idea it is to make a boiler from brass (or properly, copper) for a REAL steam train? Works fine for model engineering and small applications like a sewing machine engine seen in the Workshops Museum in Ipswich, but I'm sure there is a reason why real steam vehicles/vessels usually have steel ones.

Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable will be able to answer your question but based on the tiny amount which I know, I would say that probably, because brass and copper are relatively soft metals the materials used would need to be a good deal thicker, and perhaps buttressed to withstand the working pressure of superheated steam.

I'm not sure if he still lives in the area, but the director of the Nene Valley Railway used to live not too far from Ipswich. If you can run him to ground he might be a helpful source of information.

[Utini420]

since we're talking old German planes...

Aviation Week reports on a television special from the National Geographic Channel on what may have been the world's first true stealth fighter, the Horten Ho 229, a wooden design that was to include a layer of carbon material sandwiched in the leading edge to defeat radar. Northrop Grumman, experts at stealth technology from their Tacit Blue and B-2 programs, have built a full-size replica of the airframe and tested it at their desert facilities where they determined that the design was indeed stealthy, and would have been practically invisible to Britain's Chain Home radar system of WWII.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a41a656fb-92f6-4a9e-97ee-0b44f7587550&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/Overview23
(this link has blue prints and everything)

Big picture:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Gunny001]

             The He178 was no fighter, it was purely a test machine. There never was any intention to put it into production. The Germans may have later claimed for propaganda purposes that it was a production job, just as they did with a special speed record version of the Bf109. I've been reading the memoirs of 'The World's First Jet Pilot' Erich Warsitz, who worked for Heinkel and Von Braun.

Did I call this OR WHAT...? (*Grin*)

(For those about to make the argument that the He-178 was a 'one-off', then I give you the Heinkel 280 - which flew in 1940, still before the Gloster, and 9 were made...)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled lives, already in progress...

[Atterton]

Chironex: Brass is really for ornamental purposes, you don´t want to make anything from it that requires strength. Copper is probably a bad idea too, but I know HAC would be able to tell you all.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

The aforementioned Goblin.....


   Cute lil' bugger, in't it?