So called dieselpunk

[dieselpunks]

Sorry to necromance this thread, but it's a topic dear to my heart.

Rather than thinking about the power sources of "steam" and "diesel" as literal elements, consider the following.

The Steampunk aesthetic arches several well known eras that lacked a cohesive title, but shared a similar technology level; hence "Steam" punk. The "punk" aspect of the aesthetic has less to do with the Ramones and more to do with the DIY, "don't like it, then change it yourself" mentality of punk.

It has also become a "punk" subculture in itself, in that fashioning a steampunk outfit is not something that you can just run out to Hot Topic and buy. Instead, due to the impracticality of mass producing and the skill needed to make such garments, a steampunk will usually wear outlandish and one-of-a-kind outfits that even the "punk rock" kids would not normally have access to.

So, in a world where Misfits shirts, pink hair, and spikes has become the norm in the younger generation, the guy wearing a vest, tie, and bowler cap on the streets is now a "punk" in the truest sense of the word.

Pushing this era up to post World War I and continuing into the Technology age gives us Dieselpunk, which collects the eras in our history where diesel power was the basis of modern civilization.

For more info, I've built a fairly comprehensive website at www.dieselpunks.org that you can use to decide for yourselves.

-Tome

[Kittybriton]

Yes. Always have loved post-apocalyptic.. Wish we could hurry up with the damned apocalypse though, still waiting! I want my grimy dystopia gosh darn-it!

Actually you may have missed it! There was (IMO) a small pocket of it for a while in Ipswich (England) during the late 1970's, early 1980's around the region of the Greyfriars Shopping Complex: a commercial development project that fizzled. I remember wandering past the empty concrete shells of shops that never were, with rusting spiral staircases rising to more empty shells, climbing escalators that had probably never moved, venturing down a huge ramp into a shadowy underworld that led to the subway, and exploring the curious dingy little corners where one or two struggling enterprises eked out a living. There were certain times of day that it just wasn't a safe place.

[Mr. Straenge]

The Steampunk aesthetic arches several well known eras that lacked a cohesive title, but shared a similar technology level; hence "Steam" punk. The "punk" aspect of the aesthetic has less to do with the Ramones and more to do with the DIY, "don't like it, then change it yourself" mentality of punk.

It has also become a "punk" subculture in itself, in that fashioning a steampunk outfit is not something that you can just run out to Hot Topic and buy. Instead, due to the impracticality of mass producing and the skill needed to make such garments, a steampunk will usually wear outlandish and one-of-a-kind outfits that even the "punk rock" kids would not normally have access to.

-Tome

I have always found this to be true of any subculture/style from the ages of bohemianism to beatniks. Its always been about some type of artistic expression in some way or another. The only real difference is that dieselpunk/steampunk/cyberpunk deals in not just asthetics but also the technology that encompasses them.

To be honest though, for diselpunk, I have always preferred a Noir aspect of it and which drew me in. That and the atomic age meets diesel age.

And Tome, If I remember correctly, I believe I was member number 40 of dieselpunk.org. Love the site

-S

[cyberjacques]

I've always thought of dieselpunk as more of a post-apocalyptic style, like Mad Max or Waterworld, to name some examples.  I usually refer to things like Sky Captain and Rocketeer as vintage-tech.  The problem with trying to categorize these things is that so many of them blur the distinction at least a little.  Personally, I love vintage-tech and I'm not too fond of most dieselpunk, but steampunk trumps it all.

[teucer]

Steampunk is a subgenre of Steampunk, as is Clockpunk.

It's the genre that owes more to Lester Dent than to Jules Verne, and where Doctor Death is a bigger name than Doctor Moreau.

[Gunny001]

My personal perspective on the matter...

I don't believe there is a sharp, clearly defined line between the two. For my own reference, and for simplicity's sake, I've always equated it to the first and second Industrial Revolutions, since that's exactly where the original inspirations/guiding characteristics of each seem to originate.

The first IR centered on Britain, and was based on steam-powered machinery, copper, brass, and cast iron. The second IR, however, saw technological leadership moving to Germany and the U.S., largely because of those two powers adapting the cost-effective mass production of steel and the production and refining of petroleum products. (Such as, say... diesel. *Grin*)

To put it another way: Steampunk would be the years leading up to World War One; Dieselpunk the years following. Both 'steal' their impetus from the 'golden vision' of new technological advances and days of glory before the fog of war tarnishes the fading dream...

[JackNova]

I consider Diesel Punk to be distinctively focused on the pre and during WW2 period myself since Steampunk itself is about far more than Coal Technology and Boiling Water.

At least in my opinion.

[MissTwist]

I've always thought of dieselpunk as more of a post-apocalyptic style, like Mad Max or Waterworld, to name some examples.  I usually refer to things like Sky Captain and Rocketeer as vintage-tech.  The problem with trying to categorize these things is that so many of them blur the distinction at least a little.  Personally, I love vintage-tech and I'm not too fond of most dieselpunk, but steampunk trumps it all.

I like to dance between the two. The noir aspect of it actually slides quite nicely into everyday wear around here thanks to a thriving rockabilly movement that has a lot of lovely girls running around in the most amazing of dresses. On the flip side, though my gear of late is pitiful, my personal taste for street wear is the very utilitarian style clothes (I generally run on the theory that if I can't work on a car or beat the living beejeezus out of someone in it then it ain't wearable).

You can comfortably play with both and blend the two.

Mad Max will always have me drooling for good old muscle cars though

[darkshines]

I can flick between the two, but weirdly my Steampunk mesmerist persona/attitude is more apocalyptic, mainly because I have spent the last year studying Fin De Siecle theory, those Victorians really did think society was about the collapse. When I am in my Dieselpunk finery, I'm a double edged sword, I'm far more dominating, world leader type, a lot more military, but can also dress down and be a more 1940s pin up type. I don't tend to mix the two

[Orwin]

Post apocalyptic stuff I normally hear described simply a post apoc. 

As far as dieselpunk vs steampunk... I always just considered it a subgenre, same with clockpunk.  I find some peoples disdain for internal combustion engines somewhat bizarre.  But that's simply following what seems to be widespread aesthetics.

But that does start to get confusing... steampunk and dieselpunk do blend together well.  I think we need a more appropriate catch all term, would be more accurate if we could make steampunk also a subgenre.

(The punk aspect doesn't do it for me.  I don't associate it much with the typical punk aesthetics.)

[Arceye]

The Diesel engine was invented in Victorian times, by Dr.Rudolf Diesel, but developed by Harry Ricardo in the twenties and thirties- so 'Diesel' as an invention and inspiration can be either Steampunk- basically Victorian- or Dieselpunk-WW1 onwards? You choose. I love the way fashion, aesthetics and creativity can come together under the broad 'Steampunk' banner and pick out the bits that appeal. I certainly as I develop my Steampunk likings am not going to restrict myself to a specific period.

[Capt. Dirigible]

I think Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis' is a perfect example of a Diesel punk film, I'm surprised no one else has referred to it yet.

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[Utini420]

I keep forgetting that Steam and Diesel are supposed to be separate things. For me, its about as separate as blue and purple are in the spectrum -- sure, you can tell 'em apart when you've got Purple and Blue, but anywhere in the middle and it comes down to taste.

Anyway, for me, its got less to do with specific points in alt-history, and even less to do with steam vs. diesel as literal power source, and a lot more to do with the overall attitude each genre conveys.  When I hear the "steam" in steampunk, I think steamy, as in hot and romantic, in both the amorous and "scientific romance" senses of the word.  In short, anachronistic with a positive spin.  Diesel conjures images much darker in tone, more black and white and less sepia, and with a much more distopian view: it may be the War to End All Wars, or it might be the apocalypse, but either way the excrement has hit the rotor blades.  Thus, anachronistic with a negative spin.

But I don't feel much need to call this steampunk and that dieselpunk, much like I seldom hair-split my musical preferences between, say, Break Beat 'ardKor and Dark Tech Step.  I'd just say, "jungle."  Anyone "in the know" has their own way of seeing it, and already decided if whatever I'm talking about is Steam or Diesel; anyone who can't tell a top hat from a bowler would just be confused and put off by forcing the distinction.

[MissTwist]

When I think of it I think of dirt, grime and steel...

Which is probably why it appeals to me so much *laughs*

[Captain Brandsson]

My tastes exist where the two overlap.

For example:


Utini quite rightly compared it to a spectrum.  They exist solidly in their own places, but there is much between that blends them together.

It is not simply a matter of setting or technology but rather how much of each gets used.

[The Abiliegh]

Nice car!

And Utini nailed it, from my perspective, at least.

There are most certainly some aspects that are strictly one or the other, but there is far more of the two that are indistinguishable.

[steamtastic]

hmmm......
I never really thought about this subject much. Probably because with steampunk there are so many subtle differences; it's all so up for interpretation, we didn't need to define such a thing. There has to be a limit to how many Sub-genres we can make. Saying that, there does seem to be faint line between steampunk and dieselpunk. From what I’ve gathered from the posts so far, dieselpunk seems to be 1930-40s, with strong influence of the period’s art deco style, and from such artists like lempicka. However, like what's been mentioned, the two genres do seen to mix throughout, but I also think it is important that we  have dieselpunk. We can only stretch steampunk so far before it’s no long even steampunk. And there are many things in dieselpunk which we can’t reach in steampunk, such as the art deco style and the 1930’s airships (although both are seen anyway). Just like steampunk, we see dieselpunk in a lot in places, like – lets’ say for example, Bioshock the game, and I even think that dr steel is actually quite dieselpunk. What I’ve said is probably not anything new, but hey, there are things in dieselpunk that I’ve found that I like, and I think that we should mention it more. I wasn’t aware that there was any rivalry between steampunk and dieselpunk. But just out of interest, is there?

[Utini420]

Ya, there is, but it comes out like an old bud lite comercial:

Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"
Steampunk: "Brass!"
Dieselpunk: "Steel!"

[Captain Brandsson]

People cling to lables and exterior definitions...  Even when rebelling against, well, whatever it may be.

Some are simply more...  particular...  about things falling into neat little categories.

[Gunny001]

People cling to lables and exterior definitions...  Even when rebelling against, well, whatever it may be.

Some are simply more...  particular...  about things falling into neat little categories.

...ah, but we all tend to 'rebel' by conforming to another standard!

"I rebel to be an discrete individual... just like all my friends!"

(*Grin*)

[Utini420]

I'm not sure who hit that nail more squarely on the head, South Park with their episode about Goth Kids, or good ol' Jello Biafra, who once made a remake at the expense of metal heads to the effect that, "no highschool gym teacher could get so many kids to dress alike."

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Steampunk= Absynthe from a cut crystal glass in a gazebo on the South Lawn.

Dieselpunk= Bathtub Gin from a tin cup by a smoky fire in a hobo camp.

 

T.

[E.A. Claringbold]

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For example:

I came... Seriously, that is one beautiful car.

And...yea difference btwn steampunk dieselpunk has to do with time period, different fashion sense according to given time period, the fuel used for technology, the historical music, and overall feel.

A good dieselpunk movie I want to watch again: the Iron Giant.
(It's dieselpunk....right?).

[Captain Brandsson]

A good dieselpunk movie I want to watch again: the Iron Giant.
(It's dieselpunk....right?).

One of my top 5 favorite films!

I dunno...  Atomic Age and Beatniks... Atomonik?

If I my play linguist for a bit (knowing full well that commom usage has rendered much of this arbitrairly academic), the suffix "punk" seems to suggest the particularly cynical spin on a genre setting.  A "modern" spin (at least in context of when the terms were coined) on an "old" genre (even if that genre takes place in the future).  The genre being identified by its most notable technlogy ("cyber", "steam" etc).

[Prof. Grendel Footman Esq]

Steampunk does have a more victorian europe look to it (though you could have american steampunk, we didn't exist in a vacume back then either) Deiselpunk seems more WW2, 40's and 50's  style, art deco, Bioshock, Soviet technology looks really deiselpunk to me too (ever read The Red Star?)  steampunk has victorian gentlemen and ladies all dressed up and using big, loud steam driven machines, while deiselpunk has more rough, down and dirty men and women with big, loud, deisel powerd machines.

Deiselpunk makes me thing of WW2, bombers, jazz, insane Nazi experiments, and pinups, while Steampunk makes me think civil war, wild wild west, revolvers, loud steam-driven technology, and more insane experiments, just with a guy in a top hat and monocle rather than a little mustache and bad haircut.