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Author Topic: I wrote a paper about the forum CAUTION: LONG  (Read 4101 times)
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« on: March 20, 2007, 09:57:28 am »

So I wrote this paper about the forum. It's only a first draft, so be gentle. Constructive criticism is welcomed.

Authority, Legitimacy, and Voice:
Defining Steampunk
   Right now, there is a war being waged. It is a war for identity, it is a war for belonging, it is a war to define a word. That word is “steampunk”, and the outcome will shape the lives and lifestyles of hundreds of men and women. The unlikely battleground is an unassuming online discussion forum. Though not much to look at, in its archives cultural history is being made, and we are on the ground floor to watch it. <www.brassgoggles.co.uk/bg-forum> opened to the public on the 23rd of February, 2007. Special interest forums come and go all the time, but this one seems to have unusual appeal. Within a week, the forum had over 100 members. As of this writing, March 16th, there are almost 400, with an overall average registration of 10 per day. Originally a literary genre in the '80s comprised of a handful of books written by an even smaller number of authors, “steampunk” and its themes of victoriana, anachronism and technology seem to have struck a chord with an unusual number of people. As this fledgling community becomes a bona fide subculture, its participants have begun to struggle to define a subcultural ideology in an attempt to gain the status and legitimacy they seek in subcultural identification.
   In “Goth: Identity, Style, and Subculture”, Paul Hodkinson defines a substantive subculture as a group matching four criteria: first, 'consistent distinctiveness': “a set of shared tastes or values which is distinctive from other groups and reasonably consistent”. Second is 'identity': “a clear and sustained subjective sense of group identity”. Third is 'commitment': “concentrated and continuous practical involvement among participants”. The final defining, substantive factor defining a group as a “subculture” is 'autonomy': where “a good proportion of the productive or organizational activities which underpin it are liable to be undertaken by and for enthusiasts”. (30-32) Within a month, the Brassgoggles community has met, or is rapidly meeting, those criteria.
   The battle to define a subcultural ideology began early. On the first day the forum was open to the public, a thread entitled “Steampunk as Subculture” was started by “kiskolou”, a high school student. Though perhaps a bit optimistic considering the youth of the community, it was portentous, and set off a debate that still continues, spread across multiple threads in most sections of the board. Concentrated in this thread and another, “Steampunk isn't Punk...”, would-be steampunk 'big men' are discussing whether the steampunk community qualifies (or will) as a subculture, whether this would be a desirable state of affairs, and what the definition of “steampunk” even is.
   Of course, the reality of the matter is that steampunk doesn't need people on a forum to define it. It already has a perfectly serviceable definition. According to the official website of Tim Powers (one of the original steampunk authors), the term was coined in a 1987 letter to Locus Magazine by K. W. Jeter, a science fiction writer, to describe the particular flavor of Victorian-era science fiction he was writing.
Dear Locus,
   Enclosed is a copy of my 1979 novel Morlock Night; I'd appreciate your being so good as to route it Faren Miller, as it's a prime piece of evidence in the great debate as to who in "the Powers/Blaylock/Jeter fantasy triumvirate" was writing in the "gonzo-historical manner" first. Though of course, I did find her review in the March Locus to be quite flattering.
   Personally, I think Victorian fantasies are going to be the next big thing, as long as we can come up with a fitting collective term for Powers, Blaylock and myself. Something based on the appropriate technology of the era; like "steampunks," perhaps ...

As implied in the letter, he was one of three writers identified as writing steampunk at that time. Later, other writers, particularly those working in the “cyberpunk” genre (the name of which “steampunk” was implicitly referencing) worked within steampunk, and some stories written as early as the mid-1970's were retroactively included as influential works. It was, at its heart, modern science fiction, dealing with modern themes, transplanted to Jules Verne and H.G. Wells' Victorian 1800's.
   Yet many members of the forum feel a need to redefine it, even when arguing against its attaining subcultural status. “Tinkergirl”, the site administrator, has her definition permanently at the head of the board: a multi-paragraph treatise and bulleted list which includes “fiction actually written in Victorian era... Neo-Victoriania - A Japanese originated alternative where the aim is to recreate certain Victorian aspects of life using modern tools and ways... [and] the series of works of Jules Verne...”. In the thread “steampunk isn't punk”, a member identified as “Vernian Process”, a musician, ironically insists that “like it or not[, s]teampunk already has a definition. I mean the genre isn't exactly new... There is no need to redefine it,” and then proceeds to define the genre exclusively as “victorian anachronism”, in large red letters. “Cory”, another member, rails against what he perceives as the creeping influence of “DIY punk elitism”, certain that the theme of do-it-yourself ingenuity never was a part of the literature, and dismayed at the high regard tinkerers receive in the community. In a larger sense, it is argued whether doing computer casemods are steampunk, whether certain outfits are steampunk, and whether certain music is steampunk. A steampunk ideology, or “consistent distinctiveness” is being established, which fundamentally can not have anything to do with a shortlived sci-fi subgenre.
   The growing subculture's search to define itself is wholly linked with a search to define its focus, steampunk. Unfortunately, it cannot be defined, as it already has a definition. It must be redefined. It's okay to redefine it, but it doesn't inherently encompass Jules Verne or H.G. Wells or Edisonade fantasy. "Steampunk", as it was originally coined, simply did not refer to those works. Certainly, there is a direct relationship, influence, and lineage between the two genres, much as there is one between blues in the 1920's and punk rock in the late 1970's. Can one call 1920's bluesmen punk rock? Undoubtedly so, and there is a strong argument to be made, but it implies necessarily a redefinition of the term to include values, aesthetics, etc. not explicitly a part of the actual genre/social movement the term was coined to describe. Once you're redefining the term to include values it didn't originally imply, you've opened the discussion floodgates for any number of redefinitions.
   It is somewhat misleading to talk about “the growing subculture” searching to define itself or “the community” having needs or desires. While one can convincingly argue that the community is an emergent consciousness of its own with thoughts and desires, fundamentally it is comprised of individuals. The search for an identity is what leads people to subculture in the first place. People marginalized by the larger culture look for a theater in which they can attain the high social status and acceptance denied them elsewhere. It makes sense that upon finding this theater and seeing its embryonic state, they would try to define it in ways that spoke most to the needs they were trying to fill by their affiliation with it.
   It seems natural that as participants build an ideology, individuals would push for the inclusion of values that would facilitate the increase of their social status within the group. Many, if not most, of the members of the forum have expressed a feeling that they were “the only one” who was interested in what they were interested in, or thought the way they did. Upon discovery of the steampunk community, they say, they were filled with relief that there were others like them. This is a common sentiment among subcultural participants. A previously disparate set of interests, values, and beliefs suddenly appear to synthesize a cohesive ideology, and, lucky day! It's even given a name. Steampunk. Bonding over this newfound shared ideology, one can imagine, someone points out that something or other “is steampunk”, meaning, of course, complements their unique set of  interests, values, and beliefs. Someone else sees it and insists that the item in question certainly “is not steampunk”, of course meaning the same thing. From this, conflict arises as each participant tries to mold the definition of steampunk to something that matches the set of things they do or value, creating a social environment in which their actions and values increase status.
   Interestingly, this does not always appear to be the case at first glance. It is instructive to examine a particular item of contention: the inclusion of the aforementioned “punk D.I.Y. ethic”. As demonstrated previously, Steampunk has outgrown its original clothes as a literary genre. As such, it is meaningless for the purposes of this paper to examine whether the “punk D.I.Y. ethic” was an important part of the original body of work. However, a brief survey of the threads in which the culturemaking of steampunk is being discussed demonstrates how crucial the theme is in the current community.
   One of the stated core values of the Punk Rock movement of the 70's and '80's was ingenuity and self-reliance, embodied in the slogan D.I.Y, standing for Do It Yourself.  The Punks (ostensibly) made their own clothes, taught themselves to play musical instruments, recorded their own music, and generally tried to remain as self-sufficient as possible to avoid participating in what they perceived as an inherently flawed, corrupt 'system', the dominant culture. Anti-consumerist to the point of fanaticism, they sought a sense of connection with the artifacts they interacted with that they felt could only be achieved by creating or personalizing them themselves.  Some in the burgeoning steampunk movement question whether when they received part of their moniker (extremely) secondhand from the Punk movement, they also received this portion of the ideology.
   Tinkering, building, and modifying the artifacts and surroundings one interacts with to reflect a more “steampunk” aesthetic are common, visible activities in the current steampunk scene. A search for items tagged “steampunk” on Technocrati, a blog-specific search engine, returns mostly hits for original steampunk art, products, and, overwhelmingly, D.I.Y. inventions or mods of some description. The brassgoggles forum itself is attached to “Tinkergirl”'s steampunk blog, in which original D.I.Y. projects of this type outnumber other items immeasurably. Currently, completing an impressive D.I.Y. project, or taking part in actual steam engineering in some capacity is the most effective way of garnering status. One prominent forum member and D.I.Y.er, “Datamancer” reasons that this is because the interest in steampunk is “a reaction to the utter soullessness and disposability of modern tech.” (Aether Emporium) Jake elaborates, calling it “the Personal Industrial Revolution. The 19th Century”, he claims, “was really the last era in which a high school graduate had been given the complete set of scientific and mathematical concepts to fully understand the technology of the age.” (Aether Emporium) It would seem they has a point. Many participants who do not tinker or build, such as “fmra”, agree with them. There is a strong contingent, however, who do not. Paradoxically, one of the most outspoken dissenters is the aforementioned “Vernian Process”. “VP”, as it is often shortened, is another of the community's leaders, with a status roughly the same as that of “Datamancer”'s. Crucially, however, this status is the result of his being one of a very few self-identified steampunk musicians. Though his self-produced D.I.Y. music has garnered him his acclaim in the scene, he vehemently argues against the inclusions of the values that facilitated it. How can this be?
   In itself, the act of defining the ideology builds status. Being a part of the dialog, more specifically, being seen and remembered as being part of the dialog builds status. While the Hipsters, Mods and Skinheads Dick Hebdige describes in Subculture: The Meaning of Style could unselfconsciously declare their originality and follow their earnest ideologies, ever since Punk postmodern self-awareness and irony is part and parcel of the subcultural experience. If there are earnest followers of goth or emo, unquestioningly confident in the naturalness and inviolability of their respective ideologies, there can be none in steampunk. It is too new, it has no defined ideology, and perhaps most importantly, it is a fundamentally postmodern construct. It is a reinterpretation of a pastiche of a social commentary. Dialog is its lineage and its substance. To participate in that dialog is quite possibly the most 'steampunk' action one can take. The current form the dialog is taking is one of self-consciously defining a term and an identity, but the definition is secondary. The dialog is the primary social activity, the primary status builder.
   Why should “VP” argue in favor of D.I.Y. creativity? He's already gained status from his music, and even if he hadn't, he gains far more by taking such a vocal role in the dialog. By taking the more controversial position, he cements his place as an important culturemaker, even if he loses. By taking the more exclusionary position, he gains ever more subcultural legitimacy. Subculture must be exclusionary. To define a subcultural ideology is to define what it is not. Subcultural participants are characteristically obsessed with legitimacy. In establishing Hodkinson's “consistent distinctiveness”, to differentiate themselves from the dominant group, they must constantly draw boundaries. Participants, marginalized by the dominant culture, must in turn marginalize the dominant culture to achieve legitimacy. They are attracted to subcultural affiliation in the first place because it offers them an opportunity to gain the status denied them by the dominant culture. But in doing so, in achieving that status, they must instantiate the same cultural patterns of status, hierarchy, and marginalization that victimized them. It is all they know; marginalization is inherently linked with- complementary to- power and status.
   And if “fmra” never mods his computer case, what does he have to lose by arguing in favor of D.I.Y.? He's unlikely to quantifiably lose status by not doing something, and stands much more to gain by participating in the debate. The Stranglers, and less controversially, The Ramones, were crucially important in defining the early punk sound. Ultimately, they lost. Were one to make the same music today, any punk purist would tell you that it was not punk, had nothing to do with it. But history disagrees. By their participation in the dialectic process of definition, both bands cemented themselves as legendary pioneers in the punk scene.
   Subculture has always been about substituting your own culture instead of consuming the one given you. The great subcultural heroes are the culturemakers, the early participants who defined the scene, who first looked at the dominant culture and said, “Bollocks!” The pioneers of Steampunk, steeped in the postmodern, postsubcultural 21st century know that better than most, and can not help but clamor for a snatch of legitimacy and a place in history. “Johnny Payphone”,  a member whose profession restoring and maintaining obsolete, largely steam-powered technology wins him enough status to be fairly respected despite his low post count, put it succinctly in “Steampunk as Subculture”: “Sadly, one day you WILL be able to buy brass goggles at Hot Topic, only it will be called Proffessor P. Phineas McGillicudy's Fantastic Gogglemagorium or whatever.” But if he plays his cards right, and keeps making edgy, iconoclastic posts, maybe it will be called Professor Payphone's.

Works Cited
Berlyne, John. "Tim Powers - Published Interviews and Related Articles." The Works of Tim Powers. 17 Dec. 1999. 16 Mar. 2007 <http://www.theworksoftimpowers.com/related.htm>.
Chamberlin, Eric. Pin-Up Punks: the Reality of a Virtual Community. Unpublished.
Hebdige, Dick. Subculture: the Meaning of Style. Padstow, Cornwall: Routledge, 1979.
Hodkinson, Paul. Goth: Identity, Style, and Subculture. Oxford: Berg, 2002.
"Steampunk as Subculture." Brassgoggles Steampunk Forum. 23 Feb. 2007. 16 Mar. 2007 <http://www.brassgoggles.co.uk/bg-forum/>.
"Steampunk Isn'T Punk..." Brassgoggles Steampunk Forum. 26 Feb. 2007. 16 Mar. 2007 <http://www.brassgoggles.co.uk/bg-forum/>.

Note: There are almost no in-text citations. I know this. The situation will be rectified in the final draft.
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2007, 10:26:48 am »

Hey man, I really like the direction you went with this.  I think it was a fairly straight forward and well thought out argument in which no judgment was being made on the participants.  I can't wait to see the finished product,  just one thing I caught when I was reading through it:

        the age.” (Aether Emporium) It would seem they have a point. Many participants

Don't know if that was the type of feedback you were looking for.


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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2007, 10:30:30 am »

Now that was a read! Looking forward to the final draught.



Quote
That word is “steampunk”, and the outcome will shape the lives and lifestyles of hundreds of men and women.

Word!
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Tinker
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 10:57:39 am »

About the only place I'd debate this with you is towards the end where you're talking about status.  I'd argue that, while there seems to be a PERCEPTION of status here based on post count, views, being a culturemaker, etc, this may not be the way each individual sees themselves.  The medium creates a community appearance, with the things one might expect to find in an actual community, but that is a side effect of the medium, not of the indivduals collected within it.  I think you're going down a wrong path here, as exemplified by the phrase
Quote
“Johnny Payphone”,  a member whose profession restoring and maintaining obsolete, largely steam-powered technology wins him enough status to be fairly respected despite his low post count"
.  This implies that we've made some sort of social judgement of this member's worthiness to be heard.  I really believe, and fervently hope as well, that this isn't the case.  I hope people reading what I write take it on its face value, rather than trying to decode some sort of status information.  This sort of thought leads to an elitism that kills forums.

The thought experiment, for me goes something like this.  What I do has nothing to do with status in a group.  I DO enjoy writing about the things I make, and commenting on the things others make, but they're the same things I was making before I found this forum, and I'd go on making them even if there was no audience for them.  Thus, I'm not doing this for status, or to get some sort of culture points.  I'd think that VP would go on making his music even if he wasn't writing about it here.  Most of the people I know who make things, be they writers, constructors, musicians, or artists, do so for reasons that are internal.  External reasons don't last, don't motivate for long.  I'd prefer that we forgot about community altogether than be exclusive and status bound.  Do what makes you happy, and to hell with those who don't get it.  If it really makes you happy, you don't have to care what the world thinks of it.

I remember from a previous thread, the concept that there may someday be a steampunk 'hot-topic' type store.  Reactions went to two extremes:  either 'wouldn't be caught dead in mass produced gear, because once everyone likes it it isn't cool anymore' or 'if it's mass produced I might be able to finally afford all the cool stuff I've been wanting, and I can have fun with it'.  I prefer the latter reaction, as I like what I like, for reasons that have nothing to do with other folks's reactions.  The first reaction to me speaks of the 'in your face' aspect of punk culture, where it's somehow cooler to be unaccepted or misunderstood. 

Just some random thoughts.  While I'm glad you're writing, and I think this is an awfully good way to write about what you like for a class, I you've pointed out the class structure that's going to eventually make this place a lot less fun.

A.
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 11:06:30 am »

Another thought experiment, intended as an excercise in absurdism:

Since I have a greater post count, at the time of this writing (98 to your 97), should my words therefore carry more weight?  If not, how many more posts would I have to have before people would accept my words as weightier?  If the answer is (as I believe it should be) that no particular number of posts means one person's words are better than anothers, then we're back at the idea of taking things at face value.

How about someone who no one had ever heard of, who joined the forum, and as their very first post wrote something long and profound.  Should it be discounted because no one knows them?  Because they are new?

I remember suffering through a forum once where at least one reply to everything I said was STFU NOOB, till I had hundreds of posts.  I'm kind of glad that doesn't happen here.  I'd like to see it stay that way.

Andrew the Tinker
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 01:09:08 pm »

I'd agree.  Status seems to be concomitant on the quality of replies and posts and/or one's ability to create something.  That 'something' can be a look that is agreed upon by others to fit a Victorian/steampunk aesthetic, an ability to find, produce and share useful information or intriguing opinions, or the actual creation of objects that are pleasing to the eye.  So far, fantastic objects that are also usable seem to trump objects that are props.  The amount of time and care in crafting (often shown by documentary photographs) and willingness to share technique seems to create status also.  And language use- the ability to manipulate language is another factor.

This seems to be different from other forums, where the actual ability to use language is less important than the ability to agree with others and form a consensus.
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A true alternative subculture is one that not only questions the social status quo but poses viable solutions to some of the perceived underlying problems. Difference from the norm is not the same as superiority to the mainstream unless it can be  argued that the difference is positing a better way.
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 01:19:03 pm »

How would one put it "quality over quantity?" It does indeed apply here. I would rather be respected for a few posts of rather intelligible thought and idea, than of hundreds of posts that amount to little.

I did enjoy this, it was a good paper.

I feel this forum stresses more individuality, as well as creative expression, than other forums out there. I hope it stays that way, there are so many people with wonderful ideas, and the drive to make them a reality.
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 01:25:33 pm »

A good draft. Something better than any of the papers I'd written either in high-school or college(which really isn't saying all that much, thats the part of the deal that doomed my career as a college student), and something I consider well worth having read. As everyone else here has said, which I suppose blunts what I'm going to say, 'quality over quantity' seems to be what is important here. Take me for example. Should I be respected for my post count alone? No. However on the flip side should i simply be dismissed because I have made neither prop, nor contributed photos of some exotic or aged device or other bit of Victorian era fluff? Again, no, not out of hand anyway. That is part of the appeal of this place, even those who have little to contribute are respected as long as they act like intelligent people(now you have to ask yourselves, ARE these intelligent people that post, or simply those that this is their little niche and thus seem to know a fair bit?).

At any rate, I look forward to seeing the final version as i plan on printing it out and passing it out at the next writer's meeting at the library for discussion.
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 02:58:43 pm »

Quite interesting.  I'm not sure how some of the people mentioned will take their use as examples in the text, but I hope it is benevolently.

As for status - I think here more than in other places, fishing for compliments or poorly vieled attempts at sycophancy will be quickly picked up on and generate backlash.  However, I believe that everyone who posts here (and indeed anyone who doesn't but is known to a portion of the community) has an inherent status in the community through their visible actions.

If posterA is a maker of items, specifically a maker of say - impressive Steampunk themed cakes - then in the absence of all other effect their status will be many layered.  They will be considered a high-status Steampunk cake baker.  Perhaps a mid to high status Steampunk DIY'er.  And probably a mid status Steampunk fan.  They're respected for their specialisation.

On this forum, many things can contribute to 'status' whether the person involved realises it or not.  Quality of writing, clarity of thought, generous nature (offering good feedback, providing tips to others etc), humour, and any 'specialisations' that they may have.  No matter where you go, there's some sort of status web - I don't say hierarchy because there are so many different things to specialise in here, that working out comparative status is all but impossible in many cases.

After all that, though, I think this community is so optimistic and full of joy at the moment, that just being here confers a lot of status - it's all about "You're one of us".  I remember reading that in a relationship - if it's going well then you focus on the similarities, and if it's going well, you focus on the differences.  There's a lot of focusing on similarities just now, which is great.
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 03:38:09 pm »

I tend to agree with the above mentioned statements regarding status, but would add one or two points...

If we are defining Status by recognition, than we have celebrities in our midst.  I would argue that Crabfu and VonSlatt have done more to bring this community together than most (as their "real-world" steampunk works have been the magnet for many people finding this forum).  But if you look at their posting numbers, they are relatively small.

I do think that this group puts a (well-deserved) weight on those that are out doing.  Chances are, if you are out in your lab or workshop all night long (Payphone), you have little to no time to contribute, but when you do, your opinions and statements are revered.

There are also those of us within the forum that just really enjoy the intellectual stimuli of the discussions (and adding to them), and those are also respected.   - - I am reading this posting again and realizing that it might not be saying what I would like to say...

I am just saying that familiarity, if that is the establishment of Status, is earned in a number of ways, and this community recognizes all of them.  And I think that may also be what Alexander is saying...

but I could be wrong.... 

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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 06:56:55 pm »

Status is an (unfortunate?) byproduct of social interaction. There can be no gathering of people in any respect without status being sought and conferred. It is my belief, and I sincerely hope that this came across in my paper, that this community confers status for meaningful, legitimate reasons - intelligent participation in a dialectical process, creativity, etc. The only place I mention post count, if I recall, is in the quoted mention re: Johnny Payphone, and it is to say that other factors trump it. Is that enough? Does one still come away with the impression that, like on so many other forums, post count = status? Because I really do think that is one of this community's greatest strengths.

As to using people's names, I left them in for a few reasons: They're already pseudonyms, I don't think anyone came off looking like a jerk, and it's a publicly accessible forum. I can change their names in the final if they request it, but I AM citing the relevent threads in my paper, so anyone who even casually follows up on my research will immediately see through them.

Thanks for the feedback, and those of you saying "you can't wait for the final", what about this draft makes you anticipate a better one? I was kidding about the 'be gentle' part, I need the feedback to revise. Do your worst.

Regards,
Alexander
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 07:55:29 pm »

I'm really intrigued by your paper. Unfortunately I'm at work, and so I really was able to give only a cursory reading, and therefore cannot offer much in the way of feedback right now. I will, however, read it much more carefully at home, as I'd really like to take a deeper look at what you ahve to say. Thanks for posting it!
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2007, 08:53:40 pm »

Unless you're looking for a particular word/page count I can't really see anything wrong with turning this in as is. However as a word of caution my lack of paper writing skills is one of the reasons I failed college, so you might want to take that into account before following my suggestion.
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2007, 09:14:45 pm »

I noticed you used extracts from Aether Emporium Interviews- it may be an idea to include the url in your cited works?
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2007, 11:45:07 pm »

I think you came across as fair to the others (as I can't speak for them myself), and also that post count is not a measure here...


as MrFats said, "Quality over Quantity" is what matters.


but it is cool that we have so many Captains on board - almost feel like I know all of you people.
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 12:14:26 am »

Please put at least one clear line's space between paragraphs. Otherwise reading it becomes a chore. And you have a has where a have should be.


On to the off topic on topic remarks, might I say that I agree that being creative on here certainly seems to merit more status than not being, as does being a vocal advocate of a challengeable point (with good arguments). I do enjoy making things even though I'm the first to admit that I'm not very good at it. It's taken me three days so far to not yet succeed in removing the drum from a small portable washing machine. So far I've had to buy an angle grinder and tomorrow looks to be bolt/metal cutter purchase day, but I'm enjoying myself.

However, I disagree that more posts equals more status. I've been a member of quite a few forums and whilst some people seem to think it's better to have more posts, there are many others who disagree. I have never been a large poster on any forum, as I tend only to post when I have something to contribute. Which I often don't. But I still feel a valid member.

On the anime forum I helped set up, my post count is far lower than most members, but for some weird reason I have pretty high status. The atmosphere is rather informal, and being a moderator, admin etc. doesn't hold that much sway, so I have no idea why people seem to think I'm any good for anything. *shrugs*

So in my non-eloquent way I suppose building a whirling spinning device gets brownie points on here as does debating eloquently, but having 500 posts probably doesn't. Still, its probably for the best. Out of those three, the only one I have any chance at is the whirling spinning thing.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 12:32:25 am by Lasairfion » Logged
fmra
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Dollmaker


« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2007, 03:29:19 am »

Yay, I've been mentioned in a college paper.. though not really for anything I've done it seems. Hmm. Wonder what status that puts me at..  ::checks litmus paper::

I think the paper is well done, but did leave room for some questioning.  Your latter responses to these questions could maybe be incorporated into the paper or the standing text modified to more clearly answer them.  You don't want to allow the next reader to ask the same questions, you want to cut them off at the pass (so to say).
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"But that's not steampunk hjghahkahjkfdsahjklfdsa!!!!!11one11" -- Anachronist

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Anachronist
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Dandy and Dilletante


« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2007, 03:44:27 am »

I noticed you used extracts from Aether Emporium Interviews- it may be an idea to include the url in your cited works?

My goodness, that completely slipped my mind. Thank you for pointing that out.

Regards,
Alexander
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kiskolou
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Subpelin Underlord


« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2007, 04:10:25 am »

The only thing you missed was the whole piecher/everyone fiasco, which foreshadowed later debate. Of course, that was before this forum existed...
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2007, 04:12:13 am »

Still if its relevent it makes for a good lead in as to explain the history behind the current situation.
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Caffeinated Gent
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2007, 05:11:30 am »

I would say that at the moment, the element of status is much lesser than it will be/ could be in a larger context.

Which is to say, at the moment, the community is relatively small, and thus, status is much less a conference, because there is much more recognition of members.

That is to say, right now, the number of active, posting members is at a point where you can just about recognise almost everyone. Thereby, status is much less of an issue. Since all are recognised, all have roughly the same level of status in general, with greater status in specific fields of interest.

As the forum/ if the forum grows, and the number of posters increases, THEN status will have more noticable effects.
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Tinker
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Edisonade adventurer and maker of gadgets.


« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2007, 06:37:56 am »

I get the feeling that this forum was started at least partially from the ashes of one that got burned down?  A lot of the folks here seem to know each other already, from a previous place.  I really like the feeling of this forum at this point in its evolution, and I'd like to see it stay the way it is.  I don't think that has to change, but I think we can all do ourselves a big disservice by thinking about status.  I'm not even particularly concerned with HOW status is assigned.  Post count is just the most obviously shallow way of doing so, and the fact that it was mentioned was a bit of a flag that I should read the paper line by line.  I think the whole idea of status on an online forum is misguided.  It's an inherently misleading way of thinking about our fellow posters.  Anyone can be right, and anyone can be wrong.  Anyone can be smart or dumb, depending on the day, phase of the moon, alcohol, or whatever causes internet stupidity.  I think that we should as a community, make an effort to consider ourselves a group of equals.  If someone posts something, and it sounds like a load of BS, or a load of wisdom, it probably is, regardless of who they are.  I don't think we need celebrities.  I don't think we need leaders.  I just think we're here hanging out and killing time between projects, sharing tips, having fun.

Here's a random question.  How would the community feel about hiding the post numbers and replacing the post number descriptor with something one could self choose from a menu?  Is that a possibility?  I'm sort of missing being a gunner, but doomed to officerdom, and eventual captainship. 

A.
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Anachronist
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Dandy and Dilletante


« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2007, 07:03:13 am »

Tinker, with all due respect, I think you may be unneccesarily fixating on post count, and turning a blind eye to an inevitable, and not altogether undesirable, reality of social interaction: status.

First, nobody is placing much importance at all on post count. The one time it was mentioned in my paper, it was to say that what one actually does trumps it. Every reply that has mentioned it has echoed those sentiments. While I certainly have seen forums in which post count was a primary indicator of status, this is rather clearly not one of them. Further, if the values we have so far displayed continue at all, it will not be, except for the obvious fact that it's hard to gain much status in a written medium when you've only talked once or twice, unless it was to say or do something truly spectacular.

Second, status just happens. You might not like it, but it's a reality of social interaction. It just happens. Even in anarchist collectives with enforced egalitarianism where all decisions must me made unanimously, social status is observable. And in these situations, where everyone pulls exactly equal weight, it is incredibly difficult to get anything done. Buying toilet paper requires a vote, discussion about which brand and type to get, how much, where the money is coming from, whether it should even be bought, etc. Such a situation is unlikely to arise in a situation like a webforum, where there is one or two administrators with essentially ultimate power, but I think you get my drift. Status is not only inevitable, it is neccessary.

The reality is that status is an inevitability. The question is how that status is garnered, what form it takes, and how it is used. My point is that status on this forum is conferred for reasons and in ways that I do not find disagreeable in the least. Honestly, as long as you're a visible, active poster, nobody of consequence cares if you're a deck hand or a zeppelin captain. I haven't heard the word n00b once on this forum, nor the florid, purple-prose victorian equivalent thereof.

Another important point is that the community is made up of many more theatres than BGSPF. There are other forums, blogs, yahoo and myspace groups, real-life meetups, etc. These factors even more dilute the importance of post count. I haven't really thought about that point much, so I'll leave it at that. But I sense it's important. We should consider it.

Regards,
Alexander
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Tinker
Snr. Officer
****

Edisonade adventurer and maker of gadgets.


« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2007, 07:43:51 am »

I would say that status happens because, and only because that's how we're taught to interact.  It's far from inevitable.  I think this is one of the points on which we'll all have to agree to disagree.  I know I have a point I'm trying to make, but it feels like the words we use mean different things to each other.  I think it has  something to do with the way each succeeding wave of innovators eventually becomes the establishment against which the next wave of innovators rebels.  This feels establishmentarian to me.  The moment we decide who our leaders are, or who our heros are, there will be people who disagree, people who feel slighted, people who want to be punkier than the latest punk...  I don't think you're doing us a service by trying to identify the group's celebrities and respected elders.

For the record, I happen to think everyone on this forum, you included, is a pretty decent human being, intelligent, worthy of intelligent debate, etc.  As for exploits, creations, and creativity, such things speak for themselves.  I don't have any heros here, or recognize any celebrities.  I'd hope those here aspire to more than hero or celebrity of a subculture based on a minor literary genre.       

*Salutes and goes back to his anarcho-collectivist commune*  Gotta sit in on the latest meeting of the toilet paper comittee.

A.
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Honky-Tonk Dragon
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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2007, 11:28:00 am »

Status--- Feh.
Not too sound dismissive of some of the viewpoints brought up here on the topic, it just doesn't interest me that much.
Respect does, and is, I suppose relevant to issues of status. In my mind though, respect is a more personal subjective thing, while status is more social and group-think related... Dang, I sound dismissive, again, and I don't mean to. Y'all are raising some interesting points on the topic, and I don't mean to discourage the conversation... so I'll just shut up about it now.

Anachronist, I really like your point about the Ramones not sounding like "punk" if they came out today. I've been trying to get this history lesson through the heads of young punks for years. You mention the history of punk and the definition of goth and other subcultures. Have you considered delving a little deeper into the lineage of subcultural development? Siouxsie Sue, the Cure, and other proto-goth bands were also considered punk, way back in the day. It is extremely interesting to me how punk factionalized into all these different "alternative" subcultures, and how on a certain level steampunk has the potential to be an umbrella under which some of them seem to be coming together again...
something to think about, at least.
Good luck with the paper, my friend.
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