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Author Topic: Steamgoth?  (Read 17868 times)
Alfaya
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« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2013, 07:56:12 pm »

Dear Mr. Craven,

That must be a new interpretation of black for the age of Aquarius I guess!

Absolutely! Grin

How did the ancients see black? Something I ought to go and have a goosey gander on! Mind you, there was that german doctor who inspired Hitler's SS to wear black with the whole prominance thing. The difference in interpretation compared to the centuries before 1900 may come with the new age of the 20th century thinking about it.

I cannot help but share with you a fragment of a blog post that I am going to publish soon (in fact it is the sixth part of the blog post entitled 'Steamgoth in a nutshell'), as I think that it is relevant:
Quote
'In previous eras the colour had been in fashion for periods, in fact Spaniards introduced black into English courts in the 16th century. The early Victorians mainly associated black with mourning, but as Victoria continued to wear it, the colour started to be adopted by the mainstream as a fashionable colour'.

If you can't wait until de publication of the complete blog post, you will find comprehensive information here: 'Fashion History - Mourning Dress - Black Clothing Worn During Bereavement' Wink
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« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2013, 11:29:19 pm »

Will SteamGoth eventually morph into Steamo?  We could have 'my mad scientist romance'....

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« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2013, 03:52:11 pm »

stEmo.

    An apt piece of wordsmithing.
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« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2013, 02:12:32 am »

If you really intend on starting a "movement," what will the steamgoth stand for? or is it just another excuse to wear black and pretend to be original?
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2013, 05:23:22 pm »

If you really intend on starting a "movement," what will the steamgoth stand for? or is it just another excuse to wear black and pretend to be original?

Interesting point.

For me (the only person I can really speak for) it is partly a good excuse to bring back some elements from the original neo Victorian aspects of Goth, which (apart from with a dedicated hardcore of course), have largely gone by the way side in recent years. That does also seem to be having something of a larger resurgence at present, but TBH I think Steampunk may well have something to do with that too.

But, one of the big differences is the retro Sci Fi elements which Goth didn't really have. That was definitely more influenced by the fantasy and horror aspects. I've used this classic example before, but Mary Shelley's Frankenstein could be considered as having both Gothic and Steampunk elements. I'd say the Gothic very much revolved around the monster, whereas the Steampunk aspects would be more focused on the creator and his inventions.

Two different sides of the same story in that case, so yes there will be a crossover and an element of derivation. I don't think anyone can stand up and say that it's totally original. But I'm not sure that could be said of any of the major subcultures anyway, and I'm also not sure it really matters. The elements that largely went to make up many of them were in evidence before (Punk Rock being a fine example), they just came together in a certain way that melded well and became popular hence a new movement was born.

I would also say that given it's industrial focus, Steampunk could be seen as related to the Rivet Head movement as well, far more so than Cyber which has more of a digital focus although obviously both do have the Sci Fi and fantasy elements. And interestingly both of those could be considered as related to Goth, and of course the previous New Romantic movement. The wave on which the likes of Gary Numan, Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet, Ultravox and many others rode out on.

Still compared to what is out there currently, I personally do consider Steamgoth could be pretty original for this moment in time. And if it's bringing back into focus some cool things that have some what faded out in recent decades, I've no problem with that either as it does fit with the rather retro slant, and there is always room for more informed exploration and development no?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 05:39:38 pm by Argus Fairbrass » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2013, 08:21:20 pm »

If you really intend on starting a "movement," what will the steamgoth stand for? or is it just another excuse to wear black and pretend to be original?

I read somewhere that Steampunk was what happened when Goths discovered brown..
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2013, 08:56:45 pm »

And I read it's what happens when Goths get old, an element of truth in both I think.  Cheesy
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« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2013, 10:24:59 pm »

And I read it's what happens when Goths get old, an element of truth in both I think.  Cheesy

But wouldn't they fade to Old Greys - as in whistle test?
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andrew craven
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« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2013, 10:23:22 pm »

 Just to add something to Argus Fairbrass' post, I must give HG Wells and Jules Verne a mention with their literature and the gothic element they have in them. Of course, may be, nothing to do with the goths in the 80's, but I do see some dark elements in these old science romances aside with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Bram Stoker's 'Dracula'.

 In Wells' 'Time Machine' you have entropy when the hero sees the future of the human race plus the Morlocks' cannibalism and the way the story is told in darkness.

 And then you have some dark elements going on in Verne's work, especially '20'000 Leagues Under the Sea'. Captain Nemo came from an harsh competative industry of finding pearls, his dark and sometimes grizzly and macabre adventures under the sea, his vindictive aim to sink shipping and the way his ship went down a maelstrom with everyone on board save the guests. Nemo as the Pearl Fisherman reminds me of a song by 'All About Eve' called "Pearl Fishermen" which is about two pearl fishermen fighting each other over a pearl. Captures quite a maritime mythological essence. Very beautiful:

All About Eve .. The Pearl Fishermen ,lyrics .. I6 oct.I989
 
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Sludge Van Diesel
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« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2013, 11:24:51 pm »

Speaking as somebody who was around at the time, there was nothing remotely Victorian about original Goths

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The Victorian styling didn't start creeping in until a few years later. (Second wave I suppose)
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« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2013, 12:17:19 am »

Mr, Fairbrass,

Of course, distinguished gentlemen, such as ourselves would never consider such a thing, but a broken specimen of the 'original'  Sybian was deconstructed by a fellow-contraptor friend, years ago. A commercially-available "Shiatsu Massager" mounted inside an also commercially-available "cat tunnel" petstore item with an impermeable cover, and (in)appropriate attachments.

Of course, no one would ever  consider red faux-leather and brass for such a potentially-Gothy item, but I must post an appropriate warning, just to avoid the possibility of leading BG readers into evil thoughts. Smiley
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2013, 05:48:30 am »

Speaking as somebody who was around at the time, there was nothing remotely Victorian about original Goths

The Victorian styling didn't start creeping in until a few years later. (Second wave I suppose)


I will concede that was largely true, well kind of. Nick Keaton actually described UK Decay, the band for whom the term Punk Gothique was originally coined, as making music "thick with Victorian menace - and Banshee/Antz spice". When listening to tracks like Werewolf I do kind of hear what he meant.

But yes certainly image wise It was all pretty punky, although it was that slightly exaggerated New Wave style punky, that was both an influence on and owed a very large debt to the New Romantic movement. Something which could in itself be described as extremely eclectic, basically just mixing and matching styles from what ever period they fancied in an effort to dandy it up to the max.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Again a continually evolving thing, and everyone universally doffed their velvet caps to the granddaddy of masterful and satirically stylish re invention, Mr David Bowie. Who's own love of 30's and 40's smooth suited styling might explain why, despite the colourful start, half of them ended up looking like Insurance Salesmen.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Southern Death Cult obviously had an extremely tribal influence, which I believe Stemmed from Astbury's time in Canada living close to an Indian reservation. So I guess you could say, with his lyrics often alluding back to the trials and tribulations of the American and Canadian indigenous, there was at least partly an 18th to 19th century influence there.

I've heard them described as Positive Punk, although I only recently came across that term and don't actually recall it from back in the day. We just called them Tribal Punk, and again the more C19th Gothic look along with various name abbreviations was briefly adopted later, before they went total Rawk

I guess the chap we could credit with bringing the original Victorian styling to Goth, was very possibly him right here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And The Damned were and will forever be a Punk band at heart, no matter what musical tangents they go off on. Bands like Fields Of The Nephilim, The Virgin Prunes, The Marionettes and others that dipped into Victoriana did all come along later. I'd say Victorian influences started creeping into the lyrics, cover art and what have you before it seeped into the fashion. But again so did things from many time periods as Goth itself is not exactly tied to one. Medieval, Rococo and Regency themes among others were always equally popular, along with a healthy dose of Paganism.

But yes one could argue, as some are at the moment, that Steampunk is another in a long line of Dandyisms. It's possible that idea doesn't necessarily fill those up to their necks in muck and brass with much enthusiasm. But still there is more than a grain of truth to it.

I also promise to never again mention Sybians, after all some folks need no encouragement.  Grin
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 06:13:18 am by Argus Fairbrass » Logged
Sludge Van Diesel
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« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2013, 08:44:02 am »

I would agree that the second wave took some style tips from Mr Lett, probably due to the timing of the release of Phantasmagoria.  Although his image was largely based (until said album) on the stereotypical vampire / Dracula image.  After all, his stage name did lop the word Transylvanian in half.

Victorian menace does not a Victorian image make

I first heard / read Nik Fiend use the term Positive Punk in various interviews in around 83.  Not sure when the Punk Gothique tag was first applied to UK Decay, but it was around mid 84 - early 85 before Gothique / Gothic Punk was really being used to refer to bands that until then were pretty much being referred to as "Batcavers"

The Nephs did come along later, but we always referred to them as the cowboys & I can see similarities to elements of Wild Wild West in their image, but only as much as Mad Max & the phrase post apocalyptic was often bandied about with reference to them.  The (Screaming) Marionettes had more of a twisted circus take on the Goth image, so I could see how Victorian imagery could creep in with them  & the Prunes were definitely one of the originators of the movement & had pretty much split up by the time the likes of the Sisters of Mercy, the Cure & the Cult had brought the genre to mainstream attention.


I did know at the time however, one chap who was at all the clubs / gigs that mattered on the scene who did dress in full Victorian gent garb, but he was alone in this for quite some time.
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2013, 10:08:57 am »

It is interesting it's re surfaced so strongly now though isn't it. I've still never been to Whitby Gothic Weekend, but I have noticed more and more Neo Vic style in recent photo-sets. Well I say recent some going back as far as 2006-7, but still I am wondering if Steampunk had something to do with that. It certainly wasn't very much in evidence when I used to visit Slimelight, or even a couple of the more old school American Goth clubs I went to when over there.

A couple of the Romanti Goths flitting about here and there maybe, but they were always a bit more frilly from what I recall. And everything was decidedly more UV responsive and techno bunny tastic when exploring the other floors.

Mind you, thinking about it I'm probably going back well over a decade now anyway.

Gosh how time flies.
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CorneliaCarton
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« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2013, 06:23:57 pm »

Steamgoth does exist.
I was a Goth before I discovered Steampunk, and instead of using brass and copper and wearing brown, I still wore black and grey and silver. I just made it more... Victorian.
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« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2013, 06:12:47 pm »

I have to agree with the more recent posts. I look terrible in brown and would never dream of resorting to such tawdry clothes. One is not a farmer damn it!

On a more serious note I have always fallen more into the Fields of the Nephilim style of goth, and much prefer that to the fops with their silly frilly shirts (no offense to those that do so, a mere quip). The Nephs take their queue from spagetti westerns and the victorian west, something which i have a great interest in, and allow for wide brim hats and good long coats.

Goth has always been more than one style, from it's early punk days to its new take on rave it has always about advancing and twisting fashions. I just wish they didn't pretend to be vampires so much.
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Sludge Van Diesel
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« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2013, 12:23:13 am »

Back in my Goth days('83-'89ish) I wore elements of Steampunk dress (top hat, tailcoat, waistcoats goggles) this was back when Steampunk was only a fledgling literary genre & nothing else.  Did this make me a Steamgoth? No, it made me a Goth in a topper & tailcoat, in much the same way that wearing the same outfit in brown still would have made me a Goth in a brown topper & tailcoat (one of my toppers was grey anyway & my waistcoats as now were various colours).

Most of my wardrobe is still black. Wearing an outfit that is black doesn't make me Steamgoth, just makes me a Steampunk in a black clothes.

If Steamgoth does exist, I would suggest it has nothing to do with the colour of your clothes, but rather in the way of most other subcultures & their clothing it's down solely to the type of music you prefer & not what you wear. You can spot a Mod, Punk, Headbanger, whatever a mile off & have a fair idea of what they'll like to listen to.  Likewise you can spot a Steampunk a mile off, be they wearing brown, black, white, blue, green, grey or purple with pink polka dots.  Pinning their musical tastes is however a bit harder, because there is no actual defined Steampunk sound. So surely Steamgoth can only be defined as a Steampunk who is into Goth. Remember that Goth is a shortened version of Gothic Punk anyway, so in the sense we're talking in this thread, has the same root (unless somebody has come up with a Steamgoth novel).  Let's not forget (& you can check this by watching the videos I posted previously) the original Goths didn't wear just black & only black (although admittedly brown was rare as it tended to be worn mainly as a workwear colour for office workers, bank clerks etc... it was not unheard of) I wore a fair bit of red for example.


Saying you're Steamgoth just because you dress in black amounts to calling Johnny Cash Steamcountry or Countrygoth (although if there was a Steamcountry genre, I think Voltaire has that pretty much wrapped up)

In summary, Steamgoth in a fashion sense at least, is just a pointless sub genre.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 08:54:07 am by Sludge Van Diesel » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: August 05, 2013, 03:47:37 pm »

I do see what your driving at Sledge Van Diesel. After reading these words about "goth punk" and the origins found in music. Even though I hang out with goths and rockers mostly, I have never once heard the name "Goth Punk" being used. Depending on the individual, I have come across elitist pieces of works amongst this subculture as much as in steampunk. But it does make more sense and continual, to refer to the darker elements in steampunk as simply goth. In any case, each subculture doesnt have to stick to its pigeon hole. I like it when they all come together and this is why I like Whitby Goth Weekend because it has that diversity. And I love the gothic essentialism in aesthetic and romance as much as I do like steampunk, especially the military side.

 I may have mentioned umpteen times in the past on Brass Goggles that when I discovered steampunk I was an art student looking for inspiration and research for the sakes of it to please my tutors on my art degree. I saw Kit, this asian lad who wore a gothic victoriana suit that put the hook in me. I was already a dandy and loved my history of fashion and the gothic subculture. Seeing this Kit combining this historic suit with dreads, bits of mechano in the dreads and things and having these chrome accessories, goggles and leather gauntlets to pose as a time traveler had me inspired. It reminded me of Frankenstein, Dracula and Doctor Who combined. Putting the punk in a hammer horror character like Peter Cushings Van Helsing. I immediately fell in love with the idea and put it in my art work. It was only soon after that this began to affect my wardrobe and used Kit's ensemble as a model to base my first steampunk outfit for Halloween. And then I began to embrace steampunk as my fashion niche. I even began a series of drawings dedicated to it.

 Gothpunk and Steampunk...steamgoth combined. Who really gives a damn anyway, you can do whatever you want with your outfits and art etc in this alternative culture afterall!
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vampyresheep
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« Reply #93 on: August 06, 2013, 11:43:48 am »

My observation of "steamgoth" is that it has evolved more from the Vampyre/neo-victorian sub-genres than goth itself.  In the days when I used to go to WGW, there would be a large contingent of dressed up people who had an interest in the vampyre scene (or gothik as some people liked to class it!) rather than the music-based aspect of goth and their attire would tend towards frilly shirts, bustles, corsets etc instead of fishnets, t-shirts, tatters and pvc. 
Personally, I do take some issue about the dismissive comments from some about goths (and vice-versa when goths make fun of steampunks too) - as Andrew put it, its all part of an alternative culture!  I've always been in the middle of various scenes, I would probably still consider myself more goth than steampunk because that's where the majority of my social scene is based; although my musical tastes are more on the cyber/industrial side (and therein lies another conflict, a scene with sadly very little tolerance towards dress-ups!).  Basically I just like to dress up, be creative and take my influences from whatever inspires me!

I have actually recently an outfit around my own take on Steamgoth, which I see as mixing the colours and look of steampunk with victorian gothic themes (bats, gothic horror, ravens etc) instead of the more usual steampunk themes of gears, keys and clockwork.  Basically, this fabric http://www.eclecticmaker.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1484 is as steamgoth as it gets!  Grin
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #94 on: August 06, 2013, 09:13:35 pm »

I would agree Madame Sheep. Although my own Goth bashing does originate from personal experiences I've had with some elements of the scene. I should underline it is only some and certainly not the majority. These people will probably always be around to a degree and it's not as if Steampunk has escaped them.

Indeed It's recently come to my attention, that there are actually a couple of quite high profile folks strongly associated with the Steampunk culture. Who according to an alarming amount of reports, have been behaving in a rather obnoxious and elitist manner for quite some time. The response from those in the know seems to have been to declare anathema. But they're still around and casting their net further afield where they are currently less well known it seems.

Also the concept of Steamgoth, may not be easily traced to the 80's Goths, but it's still hardly a new thing. I think if anyone seriously tried to put it forward as such, a few folks might legitimately raise an eyebrow at that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And certainly with the likes of Manson and a few others it goes far deeper than mere costumes. He was actually making a film called "Phantasmagoria The Visions Of Lewis Carroll" back in 2006. I have no idea whether it's been shelved, and I won't link to the trailer as it's pretty pornographic. But yes one could argue that Steamgoth is...well in many ways simply Goth.

Lets face it, to the outside world we'll always just be lumped into the same category (IE a bunch of weirdos). So although some missteps may have happened initially on the path to mutual co existence. Sticking together is tactically speaking, probably the best option in the long run. And with all the wonderful crossover potential, it shouldn't prove to be too hard.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:52:50 pm by Argus Fairbrass » Logged
Adam
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« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2014, 05:13:17 pm »

I have a few pairs of New Rock boots I use to wear when I was a Goth,
are these okay to use with Steampunk?  I have only recently started to
get into Steampunk and would love to be able to still wear them.
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #96 on: January 01, 2014, 05:46:30 pm »

Hmm, I'll have to phone the Goggle Police hotline and get back to you on that one, hang on a tick...

Ah yes, according to the great council of Steampunk elders, outlandishly embellished footwear is permissible under certain special circumstances, the nature of which we are apparently required to make up as we go.

I hope that clarifies things a little.  Wink



« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 02:49:25 am by Argus Fairbrass » Logged
Adam
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« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2014, 06:40:32 pm »

Thanks Argus that helps loads, good pic as well. Smiley
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« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2014, 08:51:53 pm »

Damn, I wish I'd hopped on this thread earlier...so much to say has to be summed up, and I'm missing a lot of good stuff because the clock is a jerk...

1) A lot of 'does this exist' questions can be answered by simple google image searches. "Steamgoth" image searches result in a plethora of beautiful things.  And some crap as well.  >shrugs<
Steamcybergoth is a bit of a step down, but still some beautiful things, and it seems that the more elaborate this modifying prefixes, so does the downward trend continue.

2) Steampunk "Native Americans"...some qualms.
 a) Although "Native American" seems to be the en vogue PC term colloquially, the appropriate term is STILL American Indian...take, for example, the best-know radical Red Power political organization, the A.I.M.  "The American Indian Movement".  These are the cats still going to jail and being watched by the F.B.I. for American Indian rights, and they're NOT calling themselves "Native Americans".
b)  Aztecs and Mayans ARE American Indians.  They are indigenous folk of the Americas.  ...it's not quite good policy to imagine them as somehow special and different from the other indigenous cultures, for they are no MORE different from say, a Lakota, as the Creek would be from the Kwakiutl or Apache.
c) Also, Google Image search "Native American Steampunk" for ideas.  Yes, I know it isn't the 'right' term as I illustrated above, but the colloquial term offers better search results.  Interestingly but not surprisingly, some of the BEST images are linked to...Brass Goggles.  Good on us!

3)  Someone a few pages back hesitated to call Steampunk a subculture....there are long debates on this Forum specifically regarding this issue...but know that it seems at the moment that whether or not it's a subculture is very dependent upon location.  In many cities and regions there is too sparse a community for Steampunk to manifest as such.  However, in some areas Steampunk certainly IS a subculture, and I'm blessed to live in one of those areas, and to play a part in building a real-life community subculture with its own unique regional flavor.

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« Reply #99 on: January 02, 2014, 11:05:54 pm »

Dear Adam, wear what you like - your clothes express your personality.
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