Author Topic: Departed Cultural Icons 2021  (Read 13307 times)

Deimos

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2021, 06:23:07 am »
I remember watching the Moon walk on 20 July 1969.
That's why the movie The Dish is one of my all time favorites.
It is all very real to me, especially the opening documentary showing Pres. Kennedy setting the goal of putting a man on the moon within the decade.  

My Dad worked for McDonnell Aircraft at the time (his whole life actually) and worked on both the Mercury and Gemini projects (the two programs leading up to the Apollo program).
I also clearly remember the Apollo 1 fire on the launchpad that killed astronauts Grissom, White and Chaffee.
The actual film of that event is shown in The Dish ....very sad.      
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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2021, 01:54:18 pm »
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J. Wilhelm

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Miranda.T

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2021, 09:09:14 pm »
The CM pilots were the unsung heroes of Apollo. What's quite depressing is that for the vast majority of human history, there was no person alive who had walked on a celestial body other than the Earth. Then for a brief while we lived through a period where a handful of humans had, and it was something to be proud of as a species, but in the not too distant future we'll be back to the original situation...

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P.S. Yes, as mentioned over on The Guild of Icarus, I'm starting to get a bit skeptical about the Artemis programme.

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2021, 11:07:21 pm »
The first men walked on the moon when I was a baby. The last when I was in kindergarten. I am 53 years old. We have failed.

Who is responsible for this? Is it Marxist cranks who say that we need to solve all the problems on Earth first? Is it bean counting ninnies who say that it isn't cost effective to send humans into space when we have robot probes? I want to know.

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2021, 12:38:18 am »
I remember watching the Moon walk on 20 July 1969.
That's why the movie The Dish is one of my all time favorites.
It is all very real to me, especially the opening documentary showing Pres. Kennedy setting the goal of putting a man on the moon within the decade.  

My Dad worked for McDonnell Aircraft at the time (his whole life actually) and worked on both the Mercury and Gemini projects (the two programs leading up to the Apollo program).
I also clearly remember the Apollo 1 fire on the launchpad that killed astronauts Grissom, White and Chaffee.
The actual film of that event is shown in The Dish ....very sad.      

I have no memory of the moon walk - didn't see footage of it until quite a few years later. In 1963 we lived so far out in the outback of Australia there was not TV reception (until 1973). I only remember the Apollo 13 mission, as that was mostly via radio. I remember the sound of the crackly transmissions and waiting and waiting when the space craft went round the dark side of the moon, and the immense relief when they made it round. The agony of the wait when they re-entered Earth's atmosphere was just terrible - can't imagine how bad it was for their families.

 

Deimos

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2021, 03:02:49 am »
The first men walked on the moon when I was a baby. The last when I was in kindergarten. I am 53 years old. We have failed.

Who is responsible for this? Is it Marxist cranks who say that we need to solve all the problems on Earth first? Is it bean counting ninnies who say that it isn't cost effective to send humans into space when we have robot probes? I want to know.

Yes, yes, and yes. (We have failed, we must solve the "earth" problems first, and the myopic bean counters.)
I fully expected, I kid you not, of seeing moon based colonies before my 60th birthday.
We have lost our sense of daring, of adventure, we have become risk adverse.

If a disaster similar to Apollo 1 were to occur now, during govt funded space program, there would be howls to shut it down and re-examine everything until there was a guarantee that NO ONE would ever die again in a space program , because "even one death is unacceptable".. either a 'no deaths' guarantee or no space program.
That wasn't the philosophy back in the Apollo program; Jan 1967 Apollo 1 and three astronauts die; 2.5 years later Apollo 11, 1969 and we are walking on the moon.

Thank God the govt is not the sole entity anymore involved in space exploration.
If the ultra-timid, hand wringing feds get cold feet (and they will) there is always Space X and Virgin Galactic.
I only wish they had existed 30 years ago.  
      
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 03:08:18 am by Deimos »

J. Wilhelm

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2021, 04:30:32 am »
The first men walked on the moon when I was a baby. The last when I was in kindergarten. I am 53 years old. We have failed.

Who is responsible for this? Is it Marxist cranks who say that we need to solve all the problems on Earth first? Is it bean counting ninnies who say that it isn't cost effective to send humans into space when we have robot probes? I want to know.

Yes, yes, and yes. (We have failed, we must solve the "earth" problems first, and the myopic bean counters.)
I fully expected, I kid you not, of seeing moon based colonies before my 60th birthday.
We have lost our sense of daring, of adventure, we have become risk adverse.

If a disaster similar to Apollo 1 were to occur now, during govt funded space program, there would be howls to shut it down and re-examine everything until there was a guarantee that NO ONE would ever die again in a space program , because "even one death is unacceptable".. either a 'no deaths' guarantee or no space program.
That wasn't the philosophy back in the Apollo program; Jan 1967 Apollo 1 and three astronauts die; 2.5 years later Apollo 11, 1969 and we are walking on the moon.

Thank God the govt is not the sole entity anymore involved in space exploration.
If the ultra-timid, hand wringing feds get cold feet (and they will) there is always Space X and Virgin Galactic.
I only wish they had existed 30 years ago.  
      

Without entering into a political debate, I'm going to be extremely cavalier and say that those voices who want us to exclude space travel from our future to save the planet, and those people who only want to look at space exploration for business are in fact political fossils from the 20th century. These are not the young people I see dreaming and graduating as aerospace engineers in developing countries.

I don't know if you've noticed, but space technology politics in large measure are being controlled by old men. Period. These cranks you refer to (and I'm not just talking about the Marxist ones, but also about the hard core Capitalist ones) want to control NASA's future by nickel and diming them to death. The only reason NASA gets any money at all is because politicians need to promise jobs to their constituency.  They couldn't care less about landing on the Moon or anywhere else. They just want the contracts associated with the program for their state factories, and if no rocket reaches the Moon or Mars, they couldn't care less.

This is exactly what happened to the X33 program. It was just fodder money to pipe into different technologies in various companies, but I'm under the impression they never actually intended Venture Star to ever get off the ground (I attended the 1998 AIAA meetings in Reno, Nevada when I was just starting graduate school Errata, 2003 AIAA conference in New Orleans, La.). I heard the engineers explain the technical issues on their various systems for the half scale X-33 when I was also presenting for my graduate research team comparing notes with another team from Purdue. All new technologies for the X-33. Giant carbon fiber tanks that delaminatd after coming out from one of a kind autoclaves, with no reserve design to back it up. Copper plates for a one of a kind rectangular aerospike. Inconel thermal skin metal tiles that warped into potato chips. Mostly unproven tech  all at the same time in a ridiculously unrealistic timeline, flying a test-until-failure prototype (??) into space, which kept changing its design until it could not carry its own weight in a single stage. Ridiculous.

Look at how they strangulated NASA's budget this year. NASA had the last laugh by flipping their finger to Congress with help from Elon Musk, who's going to get to Mars with or without NASA. .
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 05:13:21 am by J. Wilhelm »

Deimos

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2021, 06:24:31 am »
Pax JW,  and call me dull witted, but I don't see what you are getting at.

Be that as it may, just help me out here...so what are "the young people (you) see dreaming and graduating as aerospace engineers in developing countries" hoping to accomplish in their careers?    
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 06:28:36 am by Deimos »

J. Wilhelm

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2021, 08:34:32 pm »
Pax JW,  and call me dull witted, but I don't see what you are getting at.

Be that as it may, just help me out here...so what are "the young people (you) see dreaming and graduating as aerospace engineers in developing countries" hoping to accomplish in their careers?    

I was getting at the fact that governments can drive or kill the space race. But the space race emanates from the people, and that ambition is a global ambition. In the US, perhaps some people can feel that "we don't need to go to space." But in other countries where they looked up to us to accomplish those feats, the people feel let down and they still want to go to space. If the US will not do it, then they will. It's as simple as that. We're always assuming that if *we* don't need it or want it, then *they* don't need it either. And worse. Only *we* are smart enough, wealthy enough, what have you, to accomplish what is clearly *our* destiny.

Just because you're living in a developing country, doesn't mean you can't have high tech aspirations or, eventually, technical results in space. You need to look at their industry and accomplishments over the last century, for they'll eventually participate in the space race. Don't assume they won't get there eventually. I will add as a side note that I regard India (in spite of its nuclear technology and giant manufacturing presence) to still be in a development status, along with Mexico and Brazil, albeit these three countries are at different stages of their technical development. All three countries have an Aerospace industry - though only India has reached space with a world class space program and only Brazil have a successful global class commercial passenger aircraft industry. Mexico is nascent with executive aircraft and small satellites.

And much less can you assume that you don't have opportunities today in those countries. In Brazil, the government started an aerospace industry decades ago (70s) that by the late 90s was breaking away from making small domestic military turboprops and making executive jets and small passenger jets (Embraer). By the 2000s They were actually one of the top 4 players in the regional jet category, arguably one of the top two by 2010 (Embraer vs Bombardier). When I was at the University of Texas at Austin, the Aerospace Engineering Department was flooded with Brazilian students (1994-2002).

I don't think I even need to mention Indian students at US universities, do I? These kids I knew in the late 90s, educated in Mechanical, Engineering at MIT and Caltech, are now professors in their own universities back in India. Many were also tied to Aerospace Engineering. I had a couple of Indian professors at the University of Texas at Austin (Molecular Gas Dynamics professor in graduate school and my graduate research supervisor, and another one was an undergraduate thermodynamics professor). Why do you think India has launched a space plane prototype and a large Mars rocket with a probe in the last few years? How could they do that? Think. India is already in space.

Mexico's turn came after they globalized their economy in the 1990s. I was not there by then. But from what I understand General Electric who's been manufacturing in that county for most of the 20th C, started a pilot program and built an aircraft turbine research center in the small industrial city of Querétaro just north from Mexico City. Now, Mexico for years had done assembly for executive aircraft, namely Learjet, which Bombardier acquired a long time ago (last I heard, Bombardier got a severe case of cold feet because of "big bully" US, and Learjet will be now divested to Textron if it hasn't already). In Mexico that investment was followed by small satellite manufacturing. There's a small cornucopia of aerospace engineering companies in Querétaro, actually. By about 2017 my former professor and chairman of the Aerospace Engineering Department at UT Austin, Dr. David Dolling (now Dean of engineering at George Washington University), was telling me that Mexico had surpassed the United States in the number of Aerospace Engineering graduates, a statement which left me flabbergasted, as I left the country when zero aerospace existed in the late 80s. A quick look at Forbes magazines from a couple of years ago will show that Mexico reached overall ½ of the number of engineering graduates the United States graduated every year. Thirteen colleges and universities are responsible for that. A number of graduates above France and Germany (also look at the Guild of Icarus for more details).

Well, I just wrote on what can happen if those developing nation governments push in the right direction in their home countries. And let me note these kids are not captive in their developing nations. They're free to go study anywhere or get into any non-classified aerospace job in the world... **right?** Being a developing nation citizen is not the same as saying that you or your family is poor or uneducated or without resources. Most international students are wealthy and come from well educated families. A fact that is not lost in the accounting departments of American universities  ::) You should see the "tuition politics" playing at major universities in the US.

A foreign born engineer from a developing nation, working at NASA or Lockheed Martin today is most likely one who came with money to study in the US or Europe. As their home countries develop their own industry, they can return to teach, or start companies of their own. That will change in the very near future, as more graduates come directly from India, Brazil, and Mexico where you already have dedicated Aerospace Engineering programs.

Aerospace industry in those developing countries was developed because they pushed in the right direction, because there was a profit to be made, and because technology can solve some pressing issues that the United States has never suffered or tried to fix.. Aerospace can be a consequence from another type of industry coming into a developing nation. In particular, the environment was basically neglected in Mexico for the whole of the 20th century (as well as India and China). High technology now promises to fix those problems (eg electric cars, solar cells), and often Space tech is viewed from the same angle as IT industry and green tech by people willing to invest. Outside of the First World, *all tech * is good tech, does that make sense

Engineering companies need computer programmers as well as engineers trained in the use of computers. And you can't do that without a developed IT industry. So General Electric in Querétaro could only start their program of there was an IT industry in Mexico, yes? And that means that Sony Ericsson in Mexico was instrumental in allowing General Electric to start hiring Mexican graduates. Before that era, most of those developing countries were economic shut-ins for decades, with closed borders and highly protectionist economic policies. They were not global players, and their economic protectionism held them to a very primitive state of technology. And in the 1990s suddenly they opened their economies and were flooded overnight with high tech. Mexico's economy was revolutionized by IT.  

Between the time that Sony-Ericsson rewired the country and the time that Tesla came in to sell cars, there was also a flood of foreign immigrants from Europe as well as Asia. All of them contributing to more high tech growth in Mexico. And that brought in a third key technology: Electric cars. With high tech companies like Tesla making inroads in Mexico the average Mexico City resident woke up to the fact that their skies could be blue again and clear enough to see the volcanoes afar.

Suddenly Mexico's burgeoisé* realized that "Green was good" and good business to boot. That in turn drive political alignments. Mexican politics began to split between green technologies (globalization, foreign investment) in one hand and traditional petroleum in the other favored by hard core nationalists. To the Mexican burgeoisé, all tech is good, and startups like Tesla and SpaceX are seen from the same angle in Mexico. That inspires generations of kids when they go to college.

I'll just say the business class in Mexico embraced high tech and environmentalism simultaneously, and was reflected in Mexican industrial and foreign policy in the 2010s. A techno-political Zeitgeist, if you will. And this was repeated in other countries, albeit with different politics and what not. Sadly, in Mexico, this was not to last; besides trade wars with the US and Canada, there was also a severe political and primitive ideological streak pushed by very dark forces that divided the country, and have stamped down this very positive Zeitgeist in the last couple of years, causing Mexico's growth to nosedive into the ground, one year before Covid-19 hit. So yeah. Old men and their 20th century hate, prejudices and politics can kill progress quite easily (and I'll shut up right now, because this WILL cross the political limits of the forum).






* that Mexican class of 2nd, 3rd (and beyond) generation Central European migrants whom I've ranted about at the Steampunk Buildings thread, and who are historically tied to the industrial revolution in Mexico as throughout Latin America.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 09:43:56 pm by J. Wilhelm »

Deimos

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2021, 12:31:02 am »
OK...now I follow you.
But honestly I don't care who gets us there as long as we get there.....
Except I will be too old to travel into space when it becomes [somewhat] affordable.

Addendum (related) In a kind of ironic twist, see if you can find the short story "Requiem" by Robert Heinlein.
Talk about "departed cultural icons".....AND space travel.... ;)   

J. Wilhelm

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2021, 02:07:33 am »
OK...now I follow you.
But honestly I don't care who gets us there as long as we get there.....
Except I will be too old to travel into space when it becomes [somewhat] affordable.

Addendum (related) In a kind of ironic twist, see if you can find the short story "Requiem" by Robert Heinlein.
Talk about "departed cultural icons".....AND space travel.... ;)   

If course, without Elon Musk it could be even longer than that. The fickle nature of developing nation politics and people's downright stupidity in the face of natural disasters means that those space programs can be derailed on the drop of a hat.

I will look forward to Elon Musk's success, even though I hate the guy. Who knows? Maybe congress will be daft enough to let Musk get to the moon just as NASA selected. And let's be honest. We're still not out of danger with Covid-19. I can see why Congress is penny pinching. I have to question, though what the need for SLS is, other than having a launch escape system, compared to Starship with Super Heavy. Knowing Elon, he'll probably find a way to human rate the system (though I have no clue about those details).

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2021, 11:14:58 am »
I won't abandon my pets, but if I could take them with me I would head off into space tomorrow - well, maybe the day after, I would have to do a few things first!

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2021, 02:36:02 pm »
Personally, I think saving the planet and our level of civilisation is dependent on our expansion into space. Accesible deposits of rare elements our technologies depend upon are running out fast. Rather than destroying what little virgin land the planet has left or blighting ocean ecoystems by mining the sea bed, let's actually make moon/asteroid ining a reality.

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2021, 11:30:36 am »
Personally, I think saving the planet and our level of civilisation is dependent on our expansion into space. Accesible deposits of rare elements our technologies depend upon are running out fast. Rather than destroying what little virgin land the planet has left or blighting ocean ecoystems by mining the sea bed, let's actually make moon/asteroid ining a reality.

Yours,
Miranda.

Absopositively well said, Miranda!

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2021, 07:16:50 pm »
maybe I'm too much a sci-fi nerd, but I really feel like our spread into space is a bit like the spread of life from the oceans to the land in prehistory.

I so very wish that I might be standing on another island in our solar ocean looking up at the boom of an emerging stellar ecosystem. asteroid mining, gas harvesting from gas giants. Ice collection. Lunar bases, Mars colony, and floating atmospheric stations on venus. Solar sail ships, O'Neill cylinders, Lagrange point space stations, space elevators, interplanetary internet... all trading resources and information.

Languages and cultures mixing and new ones emerging, adaptive biology and engineering creating variants of people that might look at home in a modern sci-fi tv series.
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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2021, 07:27:06 pm »
maybe I'm too much a sci-fi nerd, but I really feel like our spread into space is a bit like the spread of life from the oceans to the land in prehistory.

I so very wish that I might be standing on another island in our solar ocean looking up at the boom of an emerging stellar ecosystems,  asteroid mining, gas harvesting from gas giants. Ice collection. Lunar bases, Mars colony, and floating atmospheric stations on venus. Solar sail ships, O'Neill cylinders, Lagrange point space stations, space elevators, interplanetary internet... all trading resources and information.

Languages and cultures mixing and new ones emerging, adaptive biology and engineering creating variants of people that might look at home in a modern sci-fi tv series.

Absolutely; ever since the march out of Africa, human history has been basically 'expand or wither and die'. At least with the colonisation of space there are no indigenous peoples to suffer from the expansion (unless it's Martian's in their tripods, in which case they deserve everything they get!)

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2021, 09:00:36 pm »
maybe I'm too much a sci-fi nerd, but I really feel like our spread into space is a bit like the spread of life from the oceans to the land in prehistory.

I so very wish that I might be standing on another island in our solar ocean looking up at the boom of an emerging stellar ecosystems,  asteroid mining, gas harvesting from gas giants. Ice collection. Lunar bases, Mars colony, and floating atmospheric stations on venus. Solar sail ships, O'Neill cylinders, Lagrange point space stations, space elevators, interplanetary internet... all trading resources and information.

Languages and cultures mixing and new ones emerging, adaptive biology and engineering creating variants of people that might look at home in a modern sci-fi tv series.

Absolutely; ever since the march out of Africa, human history has been basically 'expand or wither and die'. At least with the colonisation of space there are no indigenous peoples to suffer from the expansion (unless it's Martian's in their tripods, in which case they deserve everything they get!)

Yours,
Miranda.

We have no idea who or what is out there. It's a big universe - mayhap the 'Voyagers' will do our original "meet and greet" for us!

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2021, 11:33:45 pm »
Norman Lloyd (né Perlmutter; November 8, 1914 – May 11, 2021) was an American actor, producer, and director with a career in entertainment spanning nearly a century. He worked in every major facet of the industry including theatre, radio, television, and film, with a career that started in 1923. His film debut was in 1942 in the Hitchcock film Saboteur. His last film, Trainwreck, was released in 2015, after Lloyd had attained 100 years of age.

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2021, 08:30:28 pm »
Norman Lloyd (né Perlmutter; November 8, 1914 – May 11, 2021) was an American actor, producer, and director with a career in entertainment spanning nearly a century. He worked in every major facet of the industry including theatre, radio, television, and film, with a career that started in 1923. His film debut was in 1942 in the Hitchcock film Saboteur. His last film, Trainwreck, was released in 2015, after Lloyd had attained 100 years of age.

Why does his St. Elsewhere work get so little mention in his obituaries? He was Dr. Auschlander

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #95 on: May 20, 2021, 12:57:33 pm »
Kentaro Miura, July 11, 1966 – May 6, 2021, Mangaka.
Best known for the dark fantasy Berserk.

News just broke, though it happened days ago.
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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2021, 11:28:29 am »
Rugby player Bob "Bozo" Fulton, age 73.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ny4RJ4fas8

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2021, 12:55:29 pm »
Dr Geoffrey Edelstein, once owner of the Sydney Swans football team. Age 78.

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Re: Departed Cultural Icons 2021
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2021, 11:41:34 am »
Dr Geoffrey Edelstein, once owner of the Sydney Swans football team. Age 78.

A cultural icon? Hmmm, that bears thinking about!!