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Author Topic: Should cosplayers be protected from themselves?  (Read 2937 times)
Banfili
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2019, 08:05:10 am »

I detect the slight aroma of sarcasm there, Melrose! Grin
Maybe, because I am retired from the workforce, (although I am what could be termed a 'private scholar', I should be sedated 24 hrs a day!! Cheesy Cheesy

Only slight? I'm slipping then!
This thread has covered a lot of ground, and it would be digressing to introduce new material about how much more we are tracked, policed, told where to stand and not stand, and all that stuff George Orwell covered so amusingly.  Grin

Indeed!
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Sorontar
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2019, 12:00:22 pm »

Taken with other posts - that a weapon can be anything a policeman thinks is a weapon - I am surprised the government hasn't thought about simply sedating us all outside working hours, because we can't be trusted like our law-writers can be.

Yes, Victoria's laws about swords is the "strongest " in Australia (but I believe NSW was first with crossbow restrictions) but I think you misunderstood what I think about what can be regarded as a weapon. I believe the law requires it to be shown (in court) that you intended to use an item as weapon. A police officer cannot simply decide that something you hold is a weapon for you to be convicted on those charges. However, they may have other ways in which they could arrest you (as distinct from convict you, which of course police cannot do for most charges) or confiscate the said item.

Of course, law is not my field of study or my profession, so you make what you want with my understandings.
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Sorontar, Captain of 'The Aethereal Dancer'
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Melrose
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**
Australia Australia



« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2019, 11:31:53 pm »

...I think you misunderstood what I think about what can be regarded as a weapon. I believe the law requires it to be shown (in court) that you intended to use an item as weapon. A police officer cannot simply decide that something you hold is a weapon for you to be convicted on those charges.

In my experience (not as an offender though!) and given a slightly different set of laws, they may not be able to prove the item was intended for use as a weapon, but by then you've possibly been arrested, been in court, and maybe had to pay a lawyer. Then there's an argument, "it's a sword, not a screwdriver, it's only use is as a weapon". I would of course argue its other use is as a costume accessory. And a lawyer would say, "Indeed. An accessory which is a weapon." The weapons laws are so ill-concieved I wouldn't bet on too many outcomes.
To return to costumes at fairs, I think what has been lacking is a consultation with all stakeholders - specifically those who make the fairs work by costuming up - and a willingness to talk adult-adult.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 11:34:12 pm by Melrose » Logged
Kensington Locke
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« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2019, 03:02:37 pm »


To return to costumes at fairs, I think what has been lacking is a consultation with all stakeholders - specifically those who make the fairs work by costuming up - and a willingness to talk adult-adult.

ultimately yes, but how do you hold an adult-adullt conversation with 100-10,000 potential attendees before you've chosen show dates or venue? (aka, the planning stage, not at the event already in progress)?  What happens if they had that conversation with 10 "typical" attendees, but not you, personally.
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Synistor 303
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Zenyna Ironbracker


« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2019, 12:38:07 am »

Taken with other posts - that a weapon can be anything a policeman thinks is a weapon - I am surprised the government hasn't thought about simply sedating us all outside working hours, because we can't be trusted like our law-writers can be.

Yes, Victoria's laws about swords is the "strongest " in Australia (but I believe NSW was first with crossbow restrictions) but I think you misunderstood what I think about what can be regarded as a weapon. I believe the law requires it to be shown (in court) that you intended to use an item as weapon. A police officer cannot simply decide that something you hold is a weapon for you to be convicted on those charges. However, they may have other ways in which they could arrest you (as distinct from convict you, which of course police cannot do for most charges) or confiscate the said item.

Of course, law is not my field of study or my profession, so you make what you want with my understandings.

The laws are strong so that they CAN take you to court if you do the wrong thing. I suspect most times the police would know what is cosplay and what is a real threat... or at least we must hope they do.
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Melrose
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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2019, 01:19:34 am »

... but how do you hold an adult-adullt conversation with 100-10,000 potential attendees before you've chosen show dates or venue? (aka, the planning stage, not at the event already in progress)?  What happens if they had that conversation with 10 "typical" attendees, but not you, personally.

Well, the problem is that a handful of people think we need supervision, and they are the ones to do it! Possibly they like it that way. But if I was asked, I'd say consult with the people who make the show interesting - the ones who put their time, money and energy into costumes. Those who come along to look already have a vote when they decide about buying a ticket.

That group can be reached. They often have online presences - Steampunk groups, costumier guilds etc. - or they will often visit the fair's webpage. Questionnaires can be published there, or handed out at one year's fair inviting views for next fair. Similar channels could be used to invite interested parties to sort out representation at meetings. Where there's a will, there's a way. One hopes for will.

The questionnaire design and method is another issue I will simply recognise, but not digress onto.

The big lack is the consultation. People go to fairs to see something different and interesting. Over-nannyising might lead to fairs where the costumes consist of cheap party-shop Hagars. Th casual audience may lose interest. One hopes karma works.

Sorontar - yes, I hope people can go to court if they do the wrong thing. Sometimes a thing isn't wrong until a small group decides it should be, and drafts a law, creating a sort of synthetic wrongness. I join in the hope that "the police would know what is cosplay and what is a real threat... or at least we must hope they do." (Clearly they did with the Umbrella Corp costumes at the zombie walk).

My issue is with fair organisers. That's where the consultation was needed.
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newjack
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2020, 09:48:29 pm »



 
 


and then there's this guy... he might trip and fall!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTDMR78w9c

« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 09:58:55 pm by newjack » Logged
Prof Marvel
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learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it


« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2020, 11:26:34 pm »

Any well costumed  reneactor has come across the same since, well, forever.
The entire issue seems to come and go with the times, and with the wackos making it hard for everybody else.
I recall when I was  involved in the SCA, for safety and  in order to keep from getting hassled we always informed local authorities
prior to any event. Peace-bonding was required, everybody got the "1 Warning" , and idiots would be tossed out
escorted off the premises . Generally, The more the unwashed public was invited, ( ie Renn- Fest ticketed Fairs, etc)
the stricter things were run. Too much Beer led to Shavs grabbing enactors blades, and then it gets ugly when event
security has to put them on the ground with sticks.

More public and fewer re-enactors often leads to draconian rules. Less public and a more private event often leads to better rules.
Some event coordinators just don't care and want to be bothered and all they want is a costume thing to attract The Public for more local business.
Those I avoid altogether.

Later when I was involved in SF conventions as part of the ConCom & Con Security, I brought up the need for formal, defined, published, enforcable
weapons policies. The big issue of the day was Lasers, as some serious home-brew wattage was being brought in.
There was no need to ban lasers or weapons,  just institute "common sense" rules.

We had one civilian hotel guest come in who thought the SF Con was awesome and bought a ticket. When he saw
cos-players with weapons,  he thought he would play too, and went back to his room and strapped on his Buck 119 bowie knife
and  S&W Model 19 revolver.

That cause a bit of a stir as I quietly surrounded him with large strongs fellers and asked to see his revolver. He was quite pleasant,
showed safe weapons handling technique, we verified it was empty, and explained that the other folks were wearing "costume props" .
Then he himself said, "shoot I better take  these back to my room!"

other common sense rules were
 - don't draw any weapon in crowded areas - find an empty area.
 - do not draw and attack (even pretending) anyone except by arangement in designated Cosplay areas.

A big problem is Nanny-state mentallity and allowing local Law Enforcement extra-ordinary judgement.
"That's A Weapon That Is" is really not needed.

 If Law Enforcement has already been advised of  "Cosplay In The Area"  and if there is no "disturbing the peace" Where is the problem?

Hell, I made a point of seeking out Hotel Security and local onsite Law Enforcement early each day to ensure we were all on the same page
and all personnel had been briefed. The last thing anyone needs is someone who was called in as extra help who didn't get the memo!

I do take great umbrage with any gov't that says I cannot "have" an item (ie as simple as a lock-blade swiss army knife) without "valid reason or permsission".
But that strays into political blah blah blah that is vebotten here.

Oh, and on the "you can't have that" bandwagon I  was pulled aside at the airport for a "random search" and  the TSA person confiscated...
                             a packet of safety pins in my shaving bag.
He ignored the safety razors, and took the pins. Mrs Marvel was chatting with The deputy sherrif that
was "standing by" and the Deputy was trying very hard not to laugh out loud at the conversation:

TSA : oh, you can't have these safety pins onboard!
Me: Really? I did not know that..
TSA: oh yes these are used by gang bangers as weapons!
Me: Wow I had no idea! what do they do with them?
TSA:  gang bangers straighten them out and poke people with them!
Me; oh wow that's awful, I had no idea, well can you just keep them or throw them away?

FYI, technically TSA personell actually have no authority, powers of arrest or detaining, they are just administrative folks in a uniform and need a LEO
(law enforcement officer) there.

New Motto: world safety is at risk, fly naked.

yhs
prof marvel
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Melrose
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2020, 02:55:08 am »

 Cheesy Thanks for that, Newjack! I think whisky will drive the nightmares away, should one need an excuse!
The balance between public and cosplayers is nicely put, Prof Marvel. Hereafter to be known as "The Marvel Equation", perhaps?
I agree with you about the political things we cannot discuss, but at least we can consider the same nannyism in parts of the world within our influence. Good to hear you own experiences.
A digression, brought to mind by your safety pin episode. A diabetic friend of mine was asked to open his bag by border protection somewhere or other. He was carrying a pack of hypodermics for his insulin. "What's this?" he was asked, and began explaining the need for the needles. "No, not those. This!" They were disturbed by a plastic bottle of spring water.
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Prof Marvel
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learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it


« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2020, 05:01:29 am »

The balance between public and cosplayers is nicely put, Prof Marvel. Hereafter to be known as "The Marvel Equation", perhaps?

Ah you are too kind... but that is clearly not verbose enough!

I submit ....

"The Marvel Hypothesis of Universal Balance and Uncommon Sense"


There was a time kinda paralleling current events ( ie  the wackjob bringing live firearms into a ComicCon )
when draconian rules were being imposed at national Science Fiction Conventions in the U.S. ;
in response an interesting backlash occurred  in a couple of places promoting the following actual Conventions:

there was, for certain:
 "Weapons Con!"   A Weapons Friendly SF Convention!"

here is one link ,Weapons Con run by Irv Koch:
https://www.smithuel.net/sfchb3/Southern_SF_Fandom_History.pdf

and I found another referencing the "Weaponscon I" program book, 1987.]

oh look another con from 1990, a makers' resume:
10/90 Weapons Con, Silver Spring, MD
            Best Weapon.  "I.C.E.: Independent Combat Engineers"
http://www.costumemaker.com/resume6.html

and Dragon Magazine thru the years has multiple references to ongoing WeaponsCOns - they seem to
appeal to the D&D and WorldofWarBlahblah crowd....

My reply to those folks was.... interesting thoughts, and I support "weapons as accouterments in costuming" 
but ummmm aren't there already "Gun Shows" by you?

yhs
prof marvel
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Melrose
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Australia Australia



« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2020, 09:09:00 am »

Most interesting reading, sir!
Gun shows ... I know of none locally. But South Australia is one of the states which not only restricts real guns, but pretend guns. A friend in Queensland, on the other hand, tells me I must visit their fest which sees vikings and GI's in armed Jeeps sharing the event. Their gun laws are much less restrictive.
South Australia has, ove the years, and despite the population's unfitness to handle pretend weapons, hosted genuine arms fairs, where invitees can look at samples of missiles, armoured vehicles and other equipment. I presume invitees are much more responsible in the use of their purchases. (He says with subtle sarcasm).
I don't see my collection of accoutrements as weapo0ns. They are images of weapons, certainly, but they serve to complete the theme of the costume.
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Prof Marvel
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learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it


« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2020, 12:22:14 am »

In the last decade or so “knife and gun shows” over here have morphed into strange events with a lot of federally licensed retailers selling new crap and catering to the over-the-top mall ninjas. Even then all federal state and local rules apply, with licensing background checks, etc... it’s not the unrestricted blackmarket the media wants you to believe....

In the more sensible past, gun shows existed to facilitate hobby collectors and more resembled “antique fairs” that happened to have a lot of historically significant “guns” . Eg: Joe has too many flintlock muff pistols and worn out Colt 1851 revolvers, so He goes to a show to sell off excess and look for that “one perfect Walker Dragoon Colt example” for his collection. In the meantime Uncle Ned passed away and nobody in the family wants his deer rifle, so they took it to the show because they think the local gunshop is low-balling them.....

There are still two Good ones I am aware of, the local “old west and antique show” and the hard-to-get-a-table national antique flintlock show. these are quite fun and its more like going to a museum that sells stuff!




South Australia has, ove the years, and despite the population's unfitness to handle pretend weapons, hosted genuine arms fairs, where invitees can look at samples of missiles, armoured vehicles and other equipment. I presume invitees are much more responsible in the use of their purchases. (He says with subtle sarcasm).

Ummmm ... wow.

Quote
I don't see my collection of accoutrements as weapo0ns. They are images of weapons, certainly, but they serve to complete the theme of the costume.

Somehow there seems to be a least common denominator of hoplophobes whose irrational fears must be catered to, even to the point of removing nonfunctioning replicas (some arent even metal!) from their sensitive vision.

I expect that this too shall pass, but whether it is within our lifetimes, who knows....

Yhs
Prof (i dont want to live on this planet anymore) Marvel
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Banfili
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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2020, 12:34:24 pm »

Yhs
Prof (i dont want to live on this planet anymore) Marvel

Unless you know something we don't, Prof, this planet is all we have - we would like you to stay, please! Grin
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Prof Marvel
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learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it


« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2020, 11:24:32 pm »

Yhs
Prof (i dont want to live on this planet anymore) Marvel

Unless you know something we don't, Prof, this planet is all we have - we would like you to stay, please! Grin

Awwww you are sweet, thank you!
Yes despite my professed desire, there are not any other options....

The phrase is directly from a favorite defunct sarcastic cartoon, futurama

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaY9k6tuLog
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Synistor 303
Snr. Officer
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Australia Australia


Zenyna Ironbracker


« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2020, 08:09:10 am »

Yhs
Prof (i dont want to live on this planet anymore) Marvel

Unless you know something we don't, Prof, this planet is all we have - we would like you to stay, please! Grin

Awwww you are sweet, thank you!
Yes despite my professed desire, there are not any other options....

The phrase is directly from a favorite defunct sarcastic cartoon, futurama

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaY9k6tuLog


“Seat-belts take more lives than they... Saaaaavvvvvveeee!!”

But our favourite scene was when Bender dropped bricks from his posterior.
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Prof Marvel
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learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it


« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2020, 09:30:02 am »


“Seat-belts take more lives than they... Saaaaavvvvvveeee!!”

But our favourite scene was when Bender dropped bricks from his posterior.

AAAAAAHAAAHAHahhahahahha!

"when Bender dropped bricks from his shiny metal posterior."

lol

prof marvel
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Hurricane Annie
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New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2020, 07:41:26 pm »



 In New Zealand, we blame Cindy. Antipodean forum member will know who we mean. Real gun crime has risen demonstrably in recent times as certain politician chose to promote themselves by celebritising a horrifying gun crime tragedy and forcing through redundant gun laws.

 It isn't the guns that are the problem   
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newjack
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United States United States



« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2020, 08:48:22 pm »

Quote
It isn't the guns that are the problem

no, it's just the whackos that fetishize them
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Banfili
Zeppelin Admiral
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Australia Australia



« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2020, 11:03:46 pm »

It isn't the guns that are the problem   

The weapon is merely the deodand, it is the human (or inhuman) element who commits the crime. I wonder it deodands are still forfeit to the crown?
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