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Author Topic: a *-punk timeline  (Read 358 times)
rovingjack
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« on: August 02, 2019, 01:12:23 am »

so I was playing with my fictional universe building project and thinking about how I could do sci-fi with it too, and cyberpunk... and then steampunk... and then thinking about stonepunk... and suddenly I needed a timeline.

This doesn't include aesthetic or hocus pocusey *-punk setting. No candypunk, splatter punk or magic punk. Not out of a dislike or sense of superiority but simply because you can make splatter punk or candy punk (etc) in any time period (the red licorice baron, or willy wonkas victorian candy inventions could just as easily be on the first mars colony or the island of atlantis).

so here is what I have:
Stone punk, Sandal Punk (egypt-rome), Castle Punk (middle ages 500-1450), Ren Punk (da Vinci 1450-1650),  Sail Punk (Pirates of the Caribbean 1650-1720), Clock Punk (Roentgens Furniture 1720-1830), Steam Punk, Diesel Punk, Atom Punk (1945-1965), Transistorpunk(hippies, spies and cassettes 65-74), Punk (74-84), Nintendo Punk (NES, gameboy and grunge music 85-98), i-Punk(imac-iphone, hip-hop/rap 98- now), Cyber Punk, Bio punk.

what do you think?
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Synistor 303
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2019, 02:40:27 am »

I think that's pretty much spot on. I would never have thought to divide them up like that, but I reckon you have got the correct punk in the correct era. Keep in mind that some eras overlapped others so Sail Punk probably went into the Clock Punk era a bit.
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2019, 10:10:13 am »

Steam Punk, Diesel Punk, Atom Punk (1945-1965)?

Completely ignoring the Victorian and Edwardian eras that most people associate with Steampunk?

Hmmm... Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2019, 12:22:09 pm »

Your problem is continuity. Or rather smooth continuity. Normally I think of *punk styles as involving an anachronism of some sort ; the *punk involves some sort of kink in the timeline that causes some processes to greatly accelerate (eg jump in scientific knowledge) or decelerate (nuclear winter) in a parallel reality in order for the subversive timeline to emerge. So for me, at least, different *punks reside in different timelines, in other words parallel worlds.

Its not impossible to string *punk timelines to one another, but then you end up with a very piece wise continuous timeline, to borrow a term from mathematics. Perhaps if we lived in a world constantly bombarded by meteorites, forcing humanity to start over and over again, you could have enough disjointedness to force humanity to periodically revive past technologies, depending on how bad the meteor impact was. If it was a major event we'd go back to stonepunk, but if it only involves the sudden loss of one type of technology (giant solar flare or EMP event) we might go back to Diesel or Steampunk.

If we were smart enough to keep underground libraries holding the knowledge from a previous cycle, instead of random *punks you could actually return only one step back, eg meteor hits and we go back to Steampunk, we advance to the Atomic Age, and another meteor hits, but because we had vast libraries, we were able to reconstruct a world that looks like Diesel in a short period of time... Subsequently, humanity progresses by "ratcheting up" technology in small bouts. The result is a timeline that looks anachronistic for every single period without a major disaster, but keeps advancing like the "normal timeline we know.
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rovingjack
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2019, 12:38:04 pm »

Steam Punk, Diesel Punk, Atom Punk (1945-1965)?

Completely ignoring the Victorian and Edwardian eras that most people associate with Steampunk?

Hmmm... Smiley


Atom punk is 1945-1965

steampunk would start in roughly the 1830s

diesel would end somewhere around 1945

I felt the two of them didn't need a date range offered as we usually have a decent sense of what that should be. Atom Punk pretty much lines up with the end of WW2, and gets about 20 years until the summer of love, cold war and transistors happen.

and the other side of steampunk is largely based on the clockwork mechanisms I'm most familiar with and the dates are based of Dates for Roentgens and near enough to the Victorian eras beginning (though from the end of victorian era to the interwar era is a bit more of a blurred line for me).

If you have a preferred start and end dates for diesel and steampunk I'd be curious to see what you would use instead.

Your problem is continuity. Or rather smooth continuity. Normally I think of *punk styles as involving an anachronism of some sort ; the *punk involves some sort of kink in the timeline that causes some processes to greatly accelerate (eg jump in scientific knowledge) or decelerate (nuclear winter) in a parallel reality in order for the subversive timeline to emerge. So for me, at least, different *punks reside in different timelines, in other words parallel worlds...

See for me that's all more of a alternate timeline or fantasy specific thing. I'm looking at this as more of an anachronism of the mundane, aka any sufficiently advanced tech- meets the tendency for fiction to be a way of talking about aspects of the present through other times.

Basically people don't crap in pots and pitch it out the window into the streets of London. They don't saw peoples legs off with a saw that was just used on somebody else and call it medicine.

Not that a stone punk setting will have skies filled with reed boats hanging under woven hot air balloons as the dominant means of transport and they navigate the globe to expand an empire that way. But is it possible that a shaman constructs one such thing, possible.

the Pnk element in any *-punk, to me, means a group of outsiders who see the technology of their time as a tool they can wield 'not as intended' and beyond what the normals in their society can, to survive and possibly carve out a niche in the ecosystem to which they are otherwise outcasts.

Again rather like a shaman in a hut on the outskirts of a villiage. Cyberpunks are just digital shamen with an power in a realm that crosses over into effecting the lives of other people but for which those other people must come to the shaman to shape and understand on their behalf.

like the superheroes use their abilities to effect the world, but it usually doesn't mean that the whole world is fundamentally changed in such a way that next year the whole of humanity lives in a completely different world than they did before this ability showed up.

Dr. Frankenstien, Dr. Moreau, Captain Nemo, Q (from the Bond series), Professor Wayne Szalinski, Artemus Gordon, the 6 million dollar man, ... etc. these are all examples of people doing extraordinary things with technology that doesn't nessecitate the course of humanities future changing so much that the timeline doesn't progress for the vast majority as they would without these people in it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 11:46:31 pm by rovingjack » Logged
Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 11:47:09 pm »



 For argument sake,   it's like a 70s  TV show or movie.  We all know the TV rules of time continuim and altered parallel dimensions .  If you disrupt history, the present will be different, it may not be one we won't, we may not be in it. Other dimensions have parallels that may be unfamiliar and unsettling, which is why one is usually compelled to return to our own zone.

 If say William didn't conquer, Britain won the War of Dependence,   Winston Churchill  didnt  win in WW 2. If the Hindenberg had stayed aloft.  If the ancient Chinese had taken their toy engines  seriously.  If the Vikings had sprung a leak on the trip over.

 What would the world be...

 

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Banfili
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2019, 01:49:48 am »


If say William didn't conquer, Britain won the War of Dependence,   Winston Churchill  didnt  win in WW 2. If the Hindenberg had stayed aloft.  If the ancient Chinese had taken their toy engines  seriously.  If the Vikings had sprung a leak on the trip over.

 What would the world be...

One could toss into that pot - what if the Ancient Greeks had considered engineering more than a toy for 'gentleman' to 'play' with? Most, if not all of the great ancient civilisations, Ancient Chinese, Ancient Greek and Ancient Roman for example, were all economically slave-based societies - if you are a slave-based society you don't need labour-saving engineering ... that is what your 'talking tools' are for.
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rovingjack
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2019, 02:09:53 am »

devils advocate to the devils advocates out there: maybe the world is were it is precisely because in the background of everything we had Daedalus, and only have glimpses of the wonders made by Archemedes, Heron, Gerber, Leonardo Da Vinci, Tesla, etc.

The assumption is that mad science and technological wonders would change the course of history... well what if they did, and we are the result.

A bit more seriously, we had electric cars before we had non-diesel engines. we had the steam engine, before we had trains. We had clockwork mechanisms before we even had ... well a sense of europes geography. Inventions and inventors show up and disappear all through history, and the surf and 'pagan' masses had nearly no chance of every grasping the significance of the things that arrived before their time.

is it really so hard to believe that a world in which diving bells and gliders were imagined and prototypes would work, but the technology gets 'reinvented' centuries later might have other things in it that disappeared into obscurity, even while one or two of them may have had a role in the unwritten histories of events?

Maybe I have a different perspective, having hung around makers and mad scientists in the real world and watched how the creator and the creation are missed for decades by everybody and the world but they have the potential to change the course of human history... and they have working examples doing their thing year in and year out.

I can easily see that happening century after century through human history.

edit: hmmm, it occurs to me that part of this might be down to some folks imagining a *-punk world as one in which the made science and tech is mass produced and everybody has access to it... while one of us at least sees a bit more of the 'the future is already here. it's just not evenly distributed' as applying to those settings.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 02:25:33 am by rovingjack » Logged
newjack
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2019, 01:49:49 am »

Quote
Stone punk, Sandal Punk (egypt-rome)
as i'm writing a story that happens at the end of the axial age... i like axial punk better even if no-one knows what it means... it just sounds cooler to me

i'm also looking beyond rome & egypt with greece as my focal point, but going global... china... the americas etc.

another label i'd choose SPECIFICALLY for my take on the era is

antikythera punk as it defines the start of my alternate timeline.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 01:52:46 am by newjack » Logged
rovingjack
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2019, 04:50:16 am »

Yeah I don't much like sandal punk either. But it's the most commonly used version of that.

I actually favor a pattern where the there are phases: Material, Mechanical, fuel and data.

Stone, Bronze and Iron. With castle being between Iron and the first machines, mechanical runs all the way up through to steam which is sort of a transition between mechanical and fuel(coal), with steam - atomic being fuels, after which communications and data systems like radios and phones running on electric current change the track again to the point we reach cyber tech, at the end of which we transition into genetic advances enabling bio.

the first 3 are often just called the 3 ages system. I'm trying to figure out if I want to split 'sandal punk' into bronze punk and iron punk but I'd need to have a greater sense of the differences that arose in the capabilities and world view of the two times.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2019, 05:12:51 am »

Quote
Stone punk, Sandal Punk (egypt-rome)
as i'm writing a story that happens at the end of the axial age... i like axial punk better even if no-one knows what it means... it just sounds cooler to me

i'm also looking beyond rome & egypt with greece as my focal point, but going global... china... the americas etc.

another label i'd choose SPECIFICALLY for my take on the era is

antikythera punk as it defines the start of my alternate timeline.



I forget if I mentioned it or we discussed it before (probably in a wall of text I gave you as a response) But there was this cartoon (sorry, animation) show on MTV many moons ago (well before your time, probably) called "Reign:The Conqueror" which features a very very idealiized story of Alexander the Great. The show created in the US/Korea as a sort of (not really) Animé by Peter Chung, the same creator of Aeon Flux. It was a mish mash of myth and science fiction plus fantasy for good measure... Antikythera Punk is a really good description for the genre. I apologize if I had already mentioned this show (I'm too lazy /tired right now to check if I did).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign:_The_Conqueror
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