The Steampunk Forum at Brass Goggles
June 25, 2019, 12:28:43 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Support BrassGoggles! Donate once or $3/mo.
 See details here.
 
   Home   Blog Help Rules Login Register  
Poll
Question:  Would you fly in a dirigible?
Yes - 17 (100%)
No - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 17

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Zeppelin, Airship, Dirigible: would you or wouldn't you?  (Read 2968 times)
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« on: May 01, 2018, 03:44:44 am »



 I've long had a fascination  with   airships, Dirigible call them what you will.  The idea of  such craft looming into the horizon or shadowing overhead   has been up to now, totally Utopian. New technological advance  have brought the  viable use of  this form of flight  back  into practical use.

Large and small. Industrial,  commercial, military and  recreational.  The applications are vast.  Will we see mooring mast appear  dotting the landscape? Is there a place for  the fields of dreams?

 Video clips of  dirigible flight are  some how very soothing   for the watcher.  Would real live flight  have the same effect . Will the public flock to watch airships land and take flight?  Is there room to expand   the market   of air travel and transport?


 
Logged
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2018, 03:53:35 am »



Here are a few favourite  flight  films

http://youtu.be/rubuNGwbvsA
http://youtu.be/xOJvtaiNp5c
http://youtu.be/Pajh4QhW2J0
http://youtu.be/CJzHjb-AmcQ
Logged
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2018, 03:59:15 am »



http://youtu.be/dk88DkkGG2U
http://youtu.be/Opm7T97xEbo
http://youtu.be/yt0HVg9Pky4
Logged
Captain
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2018, 05:46:25 am »

You might like some of the videos here as well:  http://welcometosteampunk.com/group/airships-other-aircraft

Logged

-Karl
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2018, 06:06:26 am »

You might like some of the videos here as well:  http://welcometosteampunk.com/group/airships-other-aircraft




Thank you for sharing. I will give it a good reconnaissance
Logged
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Board Moderator
Immortal
**
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2018, 06:21:40 am »

Not only would I like to see the rigid Airship for recreational transport, I have an even better proposal for the rigid Airship: as a first stage for a two stage to orbit vehicle.

There are in fact weather balloons which have been used to launch rockets. The problem with balloons besides being at the mercy of high altitude wind currents (eg Jet Stream at 30 kft), is that the volume they require at high altitude is very large in relation to the volume at low altitude. Dirigibles, as the name suggests, solve the problem of flight path. They are able to navigate wind currents as opposed to being at their mercy. If the problem of volume expansion could be solved from a structural perspective, a rigid Airship would be able to more closely control the initial trajectory of a rocket, and thus serve as a useful launching platform. Basically what I'm proposing is a "Rocket Carrier Airship."

30 kft is still too low for a useful launch (might as well use a regular jet plane for that), but I estimate a rigid Airship would have to be no more than 3 times as large (volume wise) to be able to fly at 30 kft, versus a regular Airship. Depending on how you resize the vehicle it could be no more than twice the length of a regular Airship. Quite doable. I can only guess what I could do if I can figure out a way to get a higher volume ratio.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 06:29:05 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged

Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2018, 07:16:31 am »

Not only would I like to see the rigid Airship for recreational transport, I have an even better proposal for the rigid Airship: as a first stage for a two stage to orbit vehicle.

There are in fact weather balloons which have been used to launch rockets. The problem with balloons besides being at the mercy of high altitude wind currents (eg Jet Stream at 30 kft), is that the volume they require at high altitude is very large in relation to the volume at low altitude. Dirigibles, as the name suggests, solve the problem of flight path. They are able to navigate wind currents as opposed to being at their mercy. If the problem of volume expansion could be solved from a structural perspective, a rigid Airship would be able to more closely control the initial trajectory of a rocket, and thus serve as a useful launching platform. Basically what I'm proposing is a "Rocket Carrier Airship."

30 kft is still too low for a useful launch (might as well use a regular jet plane for that), but I estimate a rigid Airship would have to be no more than 3 times as large (volume wise) to be able to fly at 30 kft, versus a regular Airship. Depending on how you resize the vehicle it could be no more than twice the length of a regular Airship. Quite doable. I can only guess what I could do if I can figure out a way to get a higher volume ratio.

 I could be wrong, and I am happy to be corrected,  were there aircraft carrier Zeppelins in the war?   Dirigible   can be used  in places that other aircraft can't. That is party of their beauty.  Rocket launching   could be another  purpose.  A gargantuan flying bum.... Imagine that...
Logged
von Corax
Squire of the Lambda Calculus
Board Moderator
Immortal
**
Canada Canada

Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2018, 02:18:32 pm »

I could be wrong, and I am happy to be corrected,  were there aircraft carrier Zeppelins in the war?   Dirigible   can be used  in places that other aircraft can't. That is party of their beauty.  Rocket launching   could be another  purpose.  A gargantuan flying bum.... Imagine that...
Between the wars, actually. USS Akron flew from 1931 to 1933 and carried 3 to 5 F9C Sparrowhawks, while USS Macon flew from 1933 to 1935 and carried either 5 Sparrowhawks or 5 Fleet N2Y-1 trainers.
Logged

By the power of caffeine do I set my mind in motion
By the Beans of Life do my thoughts acquire speed
My hands acquire a shaking
The shaking becomes a warning
By the power of caffeine do I set my mind in motion
The Leverkusen Institute of Paleocybernetics is 5838 km from Reading
James Harrison
Immortal
**
England England


Bachelor of the Arts; Master of the Sciences


« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2018, 08:28:31 pm »

Would I fly by zeppelin?  Yes.  In a heartbeat. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4jq7oRxw-g
Logged

Persons intending to travel by open carriage should select a seat with their backs to the engine, by which means they will avoid the ashes emitted therefrom, that in travelling generally, but particularly through the tunnels, prove a great annoyance; the carriage farthest from the engine will in consequence be found the most desirable.
Synistor 303
Officer
***
Australia Australia


Zenyna Ironbracker


« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2018, 12:51:24 am »

In that Indiana Jones movie they looked quite a civilised way to travel (if you ignore the throwing people overboard bit...). You pilot it and I will sip champagne and watch the view, which goes by at a much more leisurely and closer rate than modern aircraft.
Logged
annevpreussen
Gunner
**
United States United States


Captain Annemarie of the Eagle's Arrow Airship


« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2018, 04:53:50 am »

When I first read the poll, I couldn't believe that anyone on this forum wouldn't jump at the chance to fly in a dirigible... and it looks like I was right!

Let's all get a ship together and fly around a bit, shall we?
Logged

I wear goggles so you can't see when I'm staring at you.
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Board Moderator
Immortal
**
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2018, 08:46:52 pm »

I could be wrong, and I am happy to be corrected,  were there aircraft carrier Zeppelins in the war?   Dirigible   can be used  in places that other aircraft can't. That is party of their beauty.  Rocket launching   could be another  purpose.  A gargantuan flying bum.... Imagine that...

Between the wars, actually. USS Akron flew from 1931 to 1933 and carried 3 to 5 F9C Sparrowhawks, while USS Macon flew from 1933 to 1935 and carried either 5 Sparrowhawks or 5 Fleet N2Y-1 trainers.


How about a quadcopter carrier dirigible?

I've been pondering the viability of the quadcopter as an early type of aircraft. The focus of early human flight was wing configuration, and propellers, and wing cross-sections were not fully understood by the experimenters (eg Wright Brothers) and scientists (e.g. Langley) of the era.

But if a properly proportioned propeller (rotational wing) could have been developed in conjunction to a light an powerful engine, all the rotational dynamics and kinematics for a rotorcraft were well within the grasp of pysicists and engineers of the era.

The advantages of the quadcopter have only been exploited recently with the advent of drones: Gyroscopic moment force (torque) coupling effects are cancelled out, and the platform is thus more stable than a bi rotor (e.g. The V-22), which suffers from natural instability, namely a serious forward pitch tendency upon a decelerating descent. Kind of like making a heavy lift two-rotor helicoper fly sideways.

The monocopter dealt with the problem by decoupling moment forces through a linkeage that allows the rest of the craft to hang from the rotor, like a pendulum, and of course the monocopter has the unique problem of torque generated yaw, which is mitigated through the use of a tail boom and extra propeller to counteract the rotation.

But a quadcopter eliminates most problems as the blades are much smaller. The argument against the quadcopter is one of efficiency and weight. The larger the aspect ratio of the rotor blades (the longer they are) the more efficient the rotary wing is and the lighter it needs to be in relation to its thrust. Drones are very small and light, so they make those counterarguments a moot point.

A quadcopter could have been the first to fly!  In fact, it came very close to that. The Breguet-Richet Gyroplane was a four-rotor powered craft designed by Louis Breguet in 1907, and was the first rotary self powered wing aircraft to lift itself off the ground (although only in tethered flight)

1907 Breget Gyroplane


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadcopter

Helicopter designed by George De Bothezat, making descent at McCook Field after remaining airborne for two minutes, 45 seconds.
21 February 1923


The modern day observer, even without the benefit of an engineering degree can spot right away what is wrong with the rotors of the Breguet and De Bothesat quadcopters. Breguet is using very short biplane lifting surfaces, which are draggy and waste the potential for lift close to the axis of the rotor. The De Bothesat rotors look more like a fan, similar to a Da Vinci drawing opening with the radial distance. Not necessarily the most efficient propeller. Both rotors have trailing vortex issues as predicted from lifting line theory (ie unecessarilly high drag) Part of the problem is the low power in the engine, and a structural strength to weight ratio issue, but a good chunk of the scientists' problem is also the shape of the rotors themselves. Hindsight being 20/20, the modern observer intuitively knows what a helicopter blade looks like and also what a propeller blade looks like.

A modern version - though I doubt it meets any FAR regulations - but those can be changed...  Roll Eyes

EHANG 184 AAV Manned Flight Tests



 Sad Sorry for the rant. Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 09:55:47 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2018, 06:36:33 am »



 J. Wilhelm that is a groovy flight machine.   There is something very relaxing about watching it in flight
Logged
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2018, 06:39:48 am »

When I first read the poll, I couldn't believe that anyone on this forum wouldn't jump at the chance to fly in a dirigible... and it looks like I was right!

Let's all get a ship together and fly around a bit, shall we?


     That is an excellent idea

  These folks are having a fabulous time
http://youtu.be/JpxE0MGJRSM
Logged
Miranda.T
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom



« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2018, 06:29:03 pm »


     That is an excellent idea

  These folks are having a fabulous time
http://youtu.be/JpxE0MGJRSM



Most adverts make me want to throw something at the television but that was unexpectedly lovely  Smiley.

Yours,
Miranda.
Logged
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2018, 10:00:46 pm »



Most adverts make me want to throw something at the television but that was unexpectedly lovely  Smiley.

Yours,
Miranda.

 It is. Another  BG  member posted it  up in the last year so.   It is very inspiring  on many levels. Not all ads are equal. Grey Goose have a string of fabulous luxury ads   featuring golf,  yatching,  exclusive travel  and retreats  and other  adventures of extreme affluence the rest of us can never even dream of.   Their PR and marketing team is to be  commended. 

.... Shall I send the  pilot and bi plane to pick you up at yours  for the Nordic  fjord   sojourn....

 

Logged
Captain
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2018, 02:57:45 am »



Most adverts make me want to throw something at the television but that was unexpectedly lovely  Smiley.

Yours,
Miranda.

 It is. Another  BG  member posted it  up in the last year so.   It is very inspiring  on many levels. Not all ads are equal. Grey Goose have a string of fabulous luxury ads   featuring golf,  yatching,  exclusive travel  and retreats  and other  adventures of extreme affluence the rest of us can never even dream of.   Their PR and marketing team is to be  commended. 

.... Shall I send the  pilot and bi plane to pick you up at yours  for the Nordic  fjord   sojourn....

 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g23NKfWYO2c  I have the fjord flying covered but in a monoplane. 
Logged
Peter Brassbeard
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States



« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2018, 03:21:34 am »

Regarding multicoptor-dirigible hybrids, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piasecki_PA-97  Crashed almost immediately on first flight, apparently didn't have the necessary control system to dampen oscillations after being hit by a wind gust.

More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_airship#Rotastats
Logged
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Board Moderator
Immortal
**
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2018, 06:05:55 am »

Regarding multicoptor-dirigible hybrids, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piasecki_PA-97  Crashed almost immediately on first flight, apparently didn't have the necessary control system to dampen oscillations after being hit by a wind gust.

More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_airship#Rotastats

I was thinking more along the lines of an airship as a carrier for helicopters. The quadcopter airship hybrid is an interesting idea, but seems somewhat of an overkill concept to me. Smaller fans or propellers are used for more modern neutrally buoyant aircraft.

That ground Resonance phenomenon is interesting.. Could be prevented by not using hinged rotor blades, which actually explains why the rotors have to be small and rigid (ie fans or propellers).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 06:30:45 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 06:10:02 am »



Most adverts make me want to throw something at the television but that was unexpectedly lovely  Smiley.

Yours,
Miranda.


 It is. Another  BG  member posted it  up in the last year so.   It is very inspiring  on many levels. Not all ads are equal. Grey Goose have a string of fabulous luxury ads   featuring golf,  yatching,  exclusive travel  and retreats  and other  adventures of extreme affluence the rest of us can never even dream of.   Their PR and marketing team is to be  commended. 

.... Shall I send the  pilot and bi plane to pick you up at yours  for the Nordic  fjord   sojourn....

 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g23NKfWYO2c  I have the fjord flying covered but in a monoplane. 


 Do you recall this fellow

http://youtu.be/z9ExD2DQMes
Logged
annevpreussen
Gunner
**
United States United States


Captain Annemarie of the Eagle's Arrow Airship


« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 04:50:43 pm »

When I first read the poll, I couldn't believe that anyone on this forum wouldn't jump at the chance to fly in a dirigible... and it looks like I was right!

Let's all get a ship together and fly around a bit, shall we?


     That is an excellent idea

  These folks are having a fabulous time
http://youtu.be/JpxE0MGJRSM



Oh, that really is lovely! Remind me to include a projector and a band in ours when we go, okay?  Grin
Logged
Hurricane Annie
Zeppelin Captain
*****
New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2018, 06:42:11 pm »

When I first read the poll, I couldn't believe that anyone on this forum wouldn't jump at the chance to fly in a dirigible... and it looks like I was right!

Let's all get a ship together and fly around a bit, shall we?


     That is an excellent idea

  These folks are having a fabulous time
http://youtu.be/JpxE0MGJRSM



Oh, that really is lovely! Remind me to include a projector and a band in ours when we go, okay?  Grin


  We won't let you lift off with out it

Logged
Felscor
Deck Hand
*
Australia Australia


« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2018, 05:36:58 am »

It would be far more difficult to stop me from taking a dirigible!
Logged

-Elymas J. Banderbine
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.466 seconds with 18 queries.