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Poll
Question: What can be considered Magick?
Any change to previously established physics - 1 (12.5%)
Any change to real-world physics - 0 (0%)
The use of extradimensional power for a certain means - 0 (0%)
2 and 3 - 0 (0%)
1 and 3 - 1 (12.5%)
1, 2 and 3 - 2 (25%)
Incantations, Summonings, etc. - 0 (0%)
1 and 4 - 0 (0%)
2 and 4 - 0 (0%)
3 and 4 - 1 (12.5%)
All - 3 (37.5%)
Total Voters: 8

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Author Topic: Magick and the Metaphysical  (Read 2313 times)
Immen Augustus Guell
Deck Hand
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United States United States


« on: November 12, 2015, 07:40:19 pm »

The magickal constructs of certain universes are what allow much of the technology and greatness of the individual worlds in steampunk.

As such, I believe such a discussion on magick, spellcraft, metaphysics and the such is an order.

This thread is for everything relating to magick, including occult realism and the constructs of personal universes. (your personal, ideal steampunk universe, whether created by yourself or another, it does not matter.)

Now carry on, rejoice in the magick of the steampunk multiverses.
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Atterton
Time Traveler
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 09:17:54 pm »

Isn't the steampunk worlds more often created by ignoring thermodynamics and changing some basic physical laws?
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von Corax
Squire of the Lambda Calculus
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Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2015, 12:08:04 am »

Isn't the steampunk worlds more often created by ignoring thermodynamics and changing some basic physical laws?
Isn't that how magick works?
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Atterton
Time Traveler
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 12:16:40 am »

Well, magick doesn't work... What I meant was you that start with that as a basic premise, not changing the laws of nature using incantations or bargaining with demons.
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Immen Augustus Guell
Deck Hand
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United States United States


« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 12:23:00 am »

Yes more often than not it is that way, but in some cases it isn't, that's what this discussion is for sir/ma'am.

Also as von Corax mentioned, anything defying the laws of physics could be considered magick, such as materials with inplausible properties such as adamantium, that is not to say they always should, but again, they could.
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Alexis Voltaire
Rogue Ætherlord
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United States United States


Shàlle We Dànce?


« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 09:12:32 am »

I've often wondered whether magic in the classic sense might be able to exist in a world with real-life physics, if it were possible to pull energy out of an adjacent universe.

If we're talking about how this applies to steampunk worlds here, shouldn't this thread be in the Metaphysical board?
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Immen Augustus Guell
Deck Hand
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United States United States


« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2015, 12:32:50 am »

Probably, my mistake, can I request getting it moved?

Also it is technically possible with normal physics, but it is incredibly hard, thus entering mere technicality. Wormholes may be our ticket, as they serve as channels between both different places in space and time as well as between universes, the main complication would come from the incredible difficulty of creating a wormhole, (requiring either incredible amounts of mass, speed or energy) and the fact that they're not very picky in what they suck in, so saying I want to conjure something, I can't exactly be picky about what it is.

suspending particles in space-time would be, ironically, easier, as it is a scientific concept that already exist, though it hasn't been put practice. (Obviously.)

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Prof Marvel
Zeppelin Captain
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Western Sahara Western Sahara


too depressed for words


« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2015, 09:40:39 am »

Isn't the steampunk worlds more often created by ignoring thermodynamics and changing some basic physical laws?

AHA! I reject your reality and substitute my own!

yhs
教授惊叹
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Immen Augustus Guell
Deck Hand
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United States United States


« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2015, 01:39:51 am »

Hmm, I guess a poll is an order.
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Prof Marvel
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Western Sahara Western Sahara


too depressed for words


« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2015, 03:23:22 am »

Due to the choices offered by the poll, I shall apply the Kobayashi Maru solution, and invoke Clarke's Third Law.

once again  I reject your reality and substitute my own!

yhs
教授惊叹
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MWBailey
Rogue Ætherlord
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United States United States


"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 06:24:26 am »

Due to the choices offered by the poll, I shall apply the Kobayashi Maru solution, and invoke Clarke's Third Law.

once again  I reject your reality and substitute my own!

yhs
教授惊叹





I institute mine as alternative Universe number 40...
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Walk softly and carry a big banjo...

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Atterton
Time Traveler
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 09:53:55 am »

You might need a poll option for incantations and summoning of demons.
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von Corax
Squire of the Lambda Calculus
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Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2015, 05:24:00 am »

I forget where I read this quote:

Quote
Physics does not describe the real universe. Physics describes a model universe which, so far as has been observed, corresponds to the real universe.

but it is the reason I chose "1 & 3" and rejected option 2.
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Immen Augustus Guell
Deck Hand
*
United States United States


« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2015, 04:40:47 am »

I forget where I read this quote:

Quote
Physics does not describe the real universe. Physics describes a model universe which, so far as has been observed, corresponds to the real universe.

but it is the reason I chose "1 & 3" and rejected option 2.

This, I accidentally chose 1, but this was my real choice.
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Prof Marvel
Zeppelin Captain
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Western Sahara Western Sahara


too depressed for words


« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2015, 09:22:11 am »

Clarke's Third Law : Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

thus my choice would have to be
"sufficiently advanced technology"

I further submit that "advanced technology" might include mental powers, or the personal ability to affect various forms of energy, or physical objects at , say, the molecular level.

yhs
prof marvel
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Dr Fidelius
Zeppelin Admiral
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United States United States


Professor of Applied Paleontology, Miskatonic U.


« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 03:17:12 pm »

Remember Foglio's Corollary:

Any sufficiently understood magick is indistinguishable from technology.

I am a hard-magick type. I want Newton's Laws to apply to spellcasting (A spell in operation will continue to operate unless counteracted by another spell; The effective impact of a spell is proportional to the psychic strength and will of the spellcaster; Any magick which produces Good must create an equal and opposite amount of Evil).
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The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not represent any other persons, organizations, spirits, thinking machines, hive minds or other sentient beings on this world or any adjacent dimensions in the multiverse.
von Corax
Squire of the Lambda Calculus
Board Moderator
Immortal
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Canada Canada

Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2015, 11:19:48 pm »

Newton's Laws don't apply to magic - it's a quantum phenomenon. That's why explaining it causes it to not work. Roll Eyes
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Narsil
Immortal
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United Kingdom United Kingdom



WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2015, 11:33:20 pm »


I think that a good general definition of magic is that it's based on narrative concepts rather than mathematical models or to put it another way it's deals with imposing ideas of how things should work onto the physical world rather than deducing how they do work and exploiting that knowledge.

In regard to the above post about Newton's laws it's interesting to note that Newton, in many ways, represents the transition point from a magical way of looking at the world to a scientific one and he did have a foot in both camps and if you read his original laws of motion they are defined in a 'wordy' rather than mathematical way so the comparison to a more occult way of thinking is entirely valid.

It's equally true to say that any magic which consistently works is essentially technology.
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Atterton
Time Traveler
****

Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2015, 11:43:28 pm »

I like the idea of magic being the manipulation of probabilities. It leaves it open to exist along with what we know of the laws of nature, as some things we can only know the probability of.
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Narsil
Immortal
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United Kingdom United Kingdom



WWW
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2015, 12:04:40 am »

I like the idea of magic being the manipulation of probabilities. It leaves it open to exist along with what we know of the laws of nature, as some things we can only know the probability of.

I think an interesting interpretation is that it's a way of setting aside preconceptions and biases (or manipulating them in others) in order to come to better decisions.
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Dr Fidelius
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United States United States


Professor of Applied Paleontology, Miskatonic U.


« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2015, 01:57:22 pm »

Newton's Laws don't apply to magic - it's a quantum phenomenon. That's why explaining it causes it to not work. Roll Eyes

I am Steampunk. I know nothing about this "quantum" nonsense.

(My smartphone works because a crystal inside it vibrates in sympathy with the aether as controlled along Ley lines. The glass is specially infused with phlogiston to allow me to view and manipulate these fields to communicate with others who are in resonance with my device.)
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Steampunk Away
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*****
United States United States


Long Live The Icarus!

https://twitter.com/Steam
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2015, 03:45:13 pm »

I like the idea of probability magik. And rune magik, as rune magik spans cultures, making it an interesting phenomenon.
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Atterton
Time Traveler
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2015, 04:42:01 pm »

Following on from the idea of Newtonian magic, it could also be that like mass, luck is a constant. So if you give someone an amulet that gives them good luck, then someone else will get an equal amount of bad luck. Perhaps the people in the proximity of the amulet holder.
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Peter Brassbeard
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States



« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2015, 06:22:30 pm »

(My smartphone works because a crystal inside it vibrates in sympathy with the aether as controlled along Ley lines. ...
Isn't crystal resonant aetherwave technology wonderful?  Grin

I like the idea of probability magik. And rune magik, as rune magik spans cultures, making it an interesting phenomenon.
My impression is that rune magic derives from writing in general having a magical quality.  Dating from a time when only an educated, and hence special, minority could read and write.  Magic seems to lose it's "magical" quality when nearly everyone can do it.
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von Corax
Squire of the Lambda Calculus
Board Moderator
Immortal
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Canada Canada

Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2015, 08:43:30 pm »

Following on from the idea of Newtonian magic, it could also be that like mass, luck is a constant. So if you give someone an amulet that gives them good luck, then someone else will get an equal amount of bad luck. Perhaps the people in the proximity of the amulet holder.
I've read that novel. Damped if I can remember the title.
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