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Author Topic: Nuke Mars  (Read 3221 times)
J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 05:10:06 pm »

What?!? *in exaggerated German accent* You mean you guys haven't heard of the giant thermonuclear ice melters buried deep under the pole by the old ones? All you need is go get someone down there, and place their hand over a giant sphere with the imprint of a strange-looking hand.  You'll have a new atmosphere in a matter of minutes Roll Eyes   Grin

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« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2015, 05:26:14 pm »


http://chimichangatalk.com/tag/total-recall/
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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2015, 06:44:58 pm »


...or have I missed something obvious?

Yours,
Miranda.


Condensation of gases into liquids / solids below their critical point.

As there is no amount of atmospheric water left that is worth factoring in, we would specifically be looking at the primary gas on Venus - carbon dioxide.  When the temperature falls below 31.04 °C (304.19 K) or the resulting pressure drops below 72.8 atm (7,380 kPa), this is Carbon dioxides Liquid-vapor Critical Point, as such it can only exist as a gas. The gas–liquid–solid triple point of carbon dioxide is 216.55 K (−56.60 °C) and 517 kPa (5.10 atm).  Below that temperature, will cause freezing of atmospheric carbon dioxide gas into dry ice (there is no natural liquid phase of CO2 below the critical point). This will reduce the atmospheric pressure to around 3 - 4atm, and a mostly Nitrogen rich atmosphere, which is easily tolerated by humans (though no Oxygen is yet present). Naturally the CO2 ice will need to be removed planet wide, before the planet could be rewarmed to a more comfortable range for humans.
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Miranda.T
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2015, 07:05:17 pm »

(Raises hand.)

"Miss? Will this be on the test?"

Funnily enough, I do set a question linking the rms speed of a gas in the Martian atmoshpere to Mars' escape velocity...

....there's milk on my screen... and keyboard....and couch....

Apologies for being a part of this...


...or have I missed something obvious?

Yours,
Miranda.


Condensation of gases into liquids / solids below their critical point.

As there is no amount of atmospheric water left that is worth factoring in, we would specifically be looking at the primary gas on Venus - carbon dioxide.  When the temperature falls below 31.04 °C (304.19 K) or the resulting pressure drops below 72.8 atm (7,380 kPa), this is Carbon dioxides Liquid-vapor Critical Point, as such it can only exist as a gas. The gas–liquid–solid triple point of carbon dioxide is 216.55 K (−56.60 °C) and 517 kPa (5.10 atm).  Below that temperature, will cause freezing of atmospheric carbon dioxide gas into dry ice (there is no natural liquid phase of CO2 below the critical point). This will reduce the atmospheric pressure to around 3 - 4atm, and a mostly Nitrogen rich atmosphere, which is easily tolerated by humans (though no Oxygen is yet present). Naturally the CO2 ice will need to be removed planet wide, before the planet could be rewarmed to a more comfortable range for humans.

So freeze out a big proportion of atmospheric C02 into dry ice? That's one heck of a level of planetary cooling. It would be interesting to think what could be done with that amount of dry ice. Again, use solar collectors to power the direct dissociation into carbon and O2? Then maybe use nanobots to spin the carbon into bucyball  based structures for the future colonists.

There are of course suggestions that a system of orbital mirrors could be used  to offset global warming, and I have seen the very sensible comment that the system be prototyped around Venus first. Oh, and in having a quick look into this it seems the upper atmophere of Venus is quite Earth-like; sensible temperature and pressure with nitrogen and oxygen, so maybe the colinists should be housed in city-sized airships...

Yours,
Miranda.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 07:08:36 pm by Miranda.T » Logged
Alexis Voltaire
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2015, 09:03:00 pm »

Quote
Oh, and in having a quick look into this it seems the upper atmophere of Venus is quite Earth-like; sensible temperature and pressure with nitrogen and oxygen, so maybe the colinists should be housed in city-sized airships...

Yours,
Miranda.

There was a thread on here a year or so back about a serious proposal for this very idea. Though honestly, sending a spacecraft capable of making an airbourne landing, maintaining flight, and launching a return journey to earth from a flying platform sounds like the biggest invitation to murphy's law Ive ever heard of.
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2015, 05:06:42 pm »

There's one problem though, how to get the middle bit of Mars moving again.

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« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2015, 06:40:46 pm »

I'm not looking for a permanent solution -- all planets are only meta-stable anyway. But if we can get Mars surface-livable for even a few hundred thousand years that will give us a good stepping stone to habitat modules in the asteroid belt and around the gas giants.

Personally I'm partial to dropping a metric buttload of comets onto Mars. Gasses for atmosphere and water, and the raw materials are already at the top of the gravity well.
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« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2015, 08:01:13 pm »

There's one problem though, how to get the middle bit of Mars moving again.



According to the film I caught the end of the other day, you can do that with nuclear weapons too... It sometimes seems that for Hollywood nukes are the universal panacea. Massive rock heading towards Eatrh? Nuke it! (Worst thing you could do, of course). The sun, in complete defiance of all that is known about stellar eveolution, has suddently ceased fusion in its core. Nuke it! Bah...

I'm not looking for a permanent solution -- all planets are only meta-stable anyway. But if we can get Mars surface-livable for even a few hundred thousand years that will give us a good stepping stone to habitat modules in the asteroid belt and around the gas giants.

Personally I'm partial to dropping a metric buttload of comets onto Mars. Gasses for atmosphere and water, and the raw materials are already at the top of the gravity well.

Always better to go down the potential well, which is of course why the first place we should be setting up a home from home is the moon; much easier to maufacture and launch stuff from there rather than drag it up from the Earth (OK, little potential well to get out of there, but that's what O'Neill accelerators are for...)

Yours,
Miranda.
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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2015, 06:39:24 pm »

<snip> metric buttload</snip>




How many metric buttloads to an asstronomical unit?
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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2015, 06:43:58 pm »

I have a bigger butt than some; would that therefore require fewer comets?
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« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2015, 06:45:41 pm »

(Singing)

I like big comets, an' I cannot lie, you terraformers can't deny...
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Captain Lyerly
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2015, 01:38:54 pm »

<snip> metric buttload</snip>




How many metric buttloads to an asstronomical unit?

One butt-load would be 126 gallons... incompatible measurement scales. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_wine_cask_units


Seriously, though, Carl Sagan proposed sending blue-green algae (unmodified) to Venus, giving a reducing atmosphere (with no further interference) in approximately 600 years.  One hopes that, with active measures included, the time could be reduced by an order of magnitude.

I would be interested in hearing more about the nuke plan for Mars; if we did drop in water-ice asteroids at the poles - in lieu of those nukes - it could kill two birds with one stone, as it were.  For Mars, adding gases is as important as adding heat, at this point. 

As far as life on Mars goes... they are still desperately hoping to discover signs of life up there.  If life were this good at hiding itself - and traces of its byproducts - it wouldn't be life as we know it.  And we probably would not recognize it if we did see it - we aren't equipped to recognize a sentient shade of the color blue.



Cheers!


Chas.

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« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2015, 05:36:22 am »

...we aren't equipped to recognize a sentient shade of the color blue...


Oh, if we failed to recognize this sentient shade of the color blue, that would be a shame...  Wink


(But seriously, folks...)

Captain Lyerly is right, 'though:  Unless all our rovers happened to land in completely desolate areas which were never able to support "life" and we just somehow managed to avoid all the formerly habitable bits, we aren't likely to recognize anything we find as life.



(Alternately...)
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Miranda.T
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« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2015, 11:28:44 pm »

...we aren't equipped to recognize a sentient shade of the color blue...


Oh, if we failed to recognize this sentient shade of the color blue, that would be a shame...  Wink


(But seriously, folks...)

Captain Lyerly is right, 'though:  Unless all our rovers happened to land in completely desolate areas which were never able to support "life" and we just somehow managed to avoid all the formerly habitable bits, we aren't likely to recognize anything we find as life.



(Alternately...)



One of NASA's rovers (or at least a prototype) was tried in an Earthly desert which, whilst certainly sparce, any half-decent biologist could find flora and fauna in within a few minutes. The rover's controllers were entirely unable to find any signs of life...

Yours,
Miranda.

P.S. loved Farscape back in the day.
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« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2015, 04:06:30 am »

One of NASA's rovers (or at least a prototype) was tried in an Earthly desert which, whilst certainly sparce, any half-decent biologist could find flora and fauna in within a few minutes. The rover's controllers were entirely unable to find any signs of life...

Yours,
Miranda.

P.S. loved Farscape back in the day.

Agreed; it seems mathematically improbable that, if life forms had existed in some form at some time that evidence of same would be absent from current desert regions. Even if Martian deserts couldn't ever support life, one would think the winds would have at least carried some of the smaller, dead bits into the desert. But again, our ability to recognize what we were looking at...

Was there ever any formal, final consensus on whether or not that bit of meteorite they found some time ago actually contained evidence of life? It would only have been bacterial life at best, but I vaguely recall some scientists arguing that the images showed some other phenomenon.
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« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2015, 06:38:17 am »

Was there ever any formal, final consensus on whether or not that bit of meteorite they found some time ago actually contained evidence of life? It would only have been bacterial life at best, but I vaguely recall some scientists arguing that the images showed some other phenomenon.
I'm going to say "No," simply because if it was "Yes" we'd still be arguing loudly over the philosophical and religious ramifications.
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« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2015, 08:41:09 am »

venus colonization is best done in cloud cities.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/why-we-should-build-cloud-cities-on-venus

you could literally make airships full of regular earth air as a lift gas in the dense venusian atmosphere and the level it would float at would be roughly earth tropic to temperate zone.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2015, 11:33:35 am »

This has got me thinking; if the temperature at Venus' surface could be dropped, would that reduce the pressure or would it reduce the overall volume of the atmosphere, increasing its density and keeping the pressure much the same?
*snip*



Aah! Dear Miranda:

I feel compelled to say that you have sent me on a day long wild goose chase with your explanation on why pressure should be constant while temperature is varied on the planet Venus. I was running around in circles. You observation on the equivalence of Temperature and atmosphere thickness "H" is also praise worthy. Good enough for a casual question in oral engineering exams.

But you see, while the argument is intuitive, the use of the hydrostatic pressure equation P=ρgh made little sense, because the density ρ is a function of altitude in gases (gases are compressible), whereas in liquids you can argue density is constant, hence your H altitude for the edge of the atmosphere is much lower that the actual "edge" of the atmosphere. In fact Temperature, Volume and Density all vary as a function of altitude.


WARNING: NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE MATH
Go to PE class if you don't want to see the blackboard.
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« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 07:07:07 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2015, 05:58:55 pm »

WARNING: NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE MATH
Go to PE class if you don't want to see the blackboard.

May we go to the library, instead?

That all looked very logical, but of course I understood none of it, so I'll leave it to you math-heads to hash that one out. But, I am curious, so keep at it; I'd like to know how all this P = fht'agn stuff works out... I'll try to translate it all later, using phraseology I can grasp (the time-honored "Fire...bad! Friend...good!" method).

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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2015, 08:15:06 am »

WARNING: NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE MATH
Go to PE class if you don't want to see the blackboard.

May we go to the library, instead?

That all looked very logical, but of course I understood none of it, so I'll leave it to you math-heads to hash that one out. But, I am curious, so keep at it; I'd like to know how all this P = fht'agn stuff works out... I'll try to translate it all later, using phraseology I can grasp (the time-honored "Fire...bad! Friend...good!" method).

According to ancient texts, when all the celestial bodies are in the right place over the atmosphere, the planetary atmosphere becomes receptive[1].  While the phenomenon was recounted in finer detail by Prinn in the 16th C. [2], it wasn't until the 19th. C that a practical theorem was developed for the receptivity of the atmosphere to interplanetary dark matter.
Hence the equation of P is given by Eibon 3 as:

P =  (mC)0[(Rw)F]-1dF

and is known as the Cthulhu Integral, to be calculated separately for every single corner of the Seven-Pointed Star, and where

P =  Ph'nglui
m = mglw'nafh
C =  Cthulhu Non-Euclidean Coefficient
R =  R'lyeh
w = wgah'nagl
F =  Fht'agn

The horrifying solution to the Cthulhu Integral, without the mathematics of course, is redacted by Alhazred, who stresses its main use was to calculate the geographic position for the City of R'lyeh 1.

Prinn could not undersand Alhazred's explanation, since at the time, available mathematics theory on non-Euclidean geometry was limited, and would remain unavailable throughout most of the 16th and 17th centuries, and most of the 18th. century.  However, by 1875, Eibon understood it was meant to locate R'lyeh in 7-dimensional space over the non-Euclidean coordinate domain from zero over to Infinity for each of the 7 blood curdling dimensions 2.

Caution must be given to the reader, who must not try to plot this function, as this unholy geometry is well beyond the capacity of the human brain to understand, and is related to dimensions hitherto inexperienced by human evolution. It must be stressed that attempting to understand it will most likely drive the reader insane3.

*faints*





References.

[1] Alhazred, Abdul. Necronomicon  (Unkn. Eds., 1st. Ed., Southern Arabia, 819 A.D.) p. 666
[2] Eibon, Seth. Book of Eibon (Theosophical Society Press, 29th. Ed. London, 1899). p. 120
[3] Prinn, Ludwig. De Vermis Mysteriis (Self published, 3rd. Ed. Brussels, 1526). pp. 12-17

 

P.S. loved Farscape back in the day.

Though she was strange, I kinda "had the hots" for that grey girl back then.  Grin
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 08:38:41 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2015, 05:32:58 pm »

According to ancient texts, when all the celestial bodies are in the right place over the atmosphere, the planetary atmosphere becomes receptive[1].  While the phenomenon was recounted in finer detail by Prinn in the 16th C. [2], it wasn't until the 19th. C that a practical theorem was developed for the receptivity of the atmosphere to interplanetary dark matter.
Hence the equation of P is given by Eibon 3 as:

P =  (mC)0[(Rw)F]-1dF

and is known as the Cthulhu Integral, to be calculated separately for every single corner of the Seven-Pointed Star, and where

P =  Ph'nglui
m = mglw'nafh
C =  Cthulhu Non-Euclidean Coefficient
R =  R'lyeh
w = wgah'nagl
F =  Fht'agn

The horrifying solution to the Cthulhu Integral, without the mathematics of course, is redacted by Alhazred, who stresses its main use was to calculate the geographic position for the City of R'lyeh 1.

Prinn could not undersand Alhazred's explanation, since at the time, available mathematics theory on non-Euclidean geometry was limited, and would remain unavailable throughout most of the 16th and 17th centuries, and most of the 18th. century.  However, by 1875, Eibon understood it was meant to locate R'lyeh in 7-dimensional space over the non-Euclidean coordinate domain from zero over to Infinity for each of the 7 blood curdling dimensions 2.

Caution must be given to the reader, who must not try to plot this function, as this unholy geometry is well beyond the capacity of the human brain to understand, and is related to dimensions hitherto inexperienced by human evolution. It must be stressed that attempting to understand it will most likely drive the reader insane3.

*faints*





References.

[1] Alhazred, Abdul. Necronomicon  (Unkn. Eds., 1st. Ed., Southern Arabia, 819 A.D.) p. 666
[2] Eibon, Seth. Book of Eibon (Theosophical Society Press, 29th. Ed. London, 1899). p. 120
[3] Prinn, Ludwig. De Vermis Mysteriis (Self published, 3rd. Ed. Brussels, 1526). pp. 12-17


That, sir, was


Though she was strange, I kinda "had the hots" for that grey girl back then.  Grin


Oh, no...Chiana reminded me too much of my former girlfriend, The Anti-Christ. I was a Zhaan fan all the way.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2015, 06:42:40 am »

You dated the Antichrist? Ugh! Well whatever floats your boat...
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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2015, 06:11:37 pm »

In my defense, I didn't know that fact when we met. Her true nature revealed itself gradually. My current lady, when talking with friends of mine who had also known the AC, was told by them, "Yeah, you'd be talking to her all normal, then all of a sudden her head would spin around."

Now, she would have nuked Mars, just for the laugh...
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« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2015, 06:19:25 pm »

I have given up hope for Mars.  The recent huge discovery - that there has been briny flowing brackish sludge on the surface - was next to the last nail in the coffin; with "liquid" near-water, the Existence of Life On Mars group will have new life breathed into their cult. 

The final nail in the coffin, or straw that broke the camel's back, was the announcement that none of the rovers up there now will be allowed to approach the site where the water was allegedly found.  Because they might contaminate it with Earth life, and the game would be over.

As long as people want to repair and improve Mars, and eventually settle there, there will be those who oppose it, for purely misanthropic reasons.  And they will continue finding excuses for pretending there is life of Martian origin there, even if they have to invent evidence.



Cheers!

Chas.
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