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Author Topic: Big game dentist  (Read 4453 times)
Clym Angus
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« on: July 29, 2015, 12:04:11 pm »

This joke of a man:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33695872

Now you see I can understand completely where this man is coming from. He asked for a nice liberal, hipster, flaky, social security dependant lion that no one gave a sh*t about. And they farmed him up a patriotic, nationalistic, hard working, white collar, honest joe public treasure which he dutifully kebabed from a few hundred feet away. He wanted a deadbeat lion that he could impale badly then chase it down for 2 days. And he was cheated. Honestly, if anyone ever needed another reason to be scared ****less of dentists.

Not the point, my point is a serious one. As Steampunks this is the "Steam" part. Pail dude out and about with a gun blowing the hell out of the native wild life and nailing the head to a wall. Now I'm not particularly into tree huggery (I find dead wood far too useful). I can understand the need for population control and that in any species your going to get the odd derangement, that just loves killing something and holding it's corpse up against his (and it's usually a he) bare, manly chest as his guide takes a couple of murder selfies for the Christmas family round robin e-mail. I understand that, but I don't have to like it.

So this is one of those wonderful polarising stories. This IS a very Steampunk thing to do. Not my Steampunk mate and definitely not splendid.

Also as a side note, from his photo album he's escalating. He's done a leopard, a rhino now a lion. He'll do a tiger maybe an elephant, possibly a whale then he'll do the next person who knicks one of he's latex gloves whilst he's carrying out a routine cavity check. He's on the long straight road.



« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 12:11:47 pm by Clym Angus » Logged

Banfili
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 02:14:35 pm »

There's hunting, and then there's shooting. it was the dentist's responsibility to check that the permit was legal - as we are told so often when visiting countries other than our own, ignorance is not an excuse, be it of the law, or local customs.
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Fairley B. Strange
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2015, 03:25:47 pm »

As an ethical hunter of meat, a competitor on targets, and a veteran of a few tours at the great two-legged-game hunt; there is hunting of non-endangered and often feral animals for meat consumption, there is culling to remove pest species or to thin out a managed herd that is overstocked, and there is that guy.

From what I see, at the best interpretation he is a gullible idiot who let an unethical guide lead him into an illegal 'hunt' just for his money, more likely he has added to that by being the kind of gun-toting idiot who chases a trophy irregardless of the cost.

Would I shoot a lion?
Not unless it was actively attacking me and mine.
If so, would I then put it's head on my wall?
Probably - with the history and respect such a foe deserves.
Would I shoot a dentist...?
Hmmmm... can I put him on my wall afterwards?   Grin

Is this 'Steampunk'?
Well, in all eras there are chaps who do the done thing, and there are always bounders who don't, so yes.
Like a few other tropes, the 'African Safari Hunter' can tend towards that guy unless your lion is this guy...

 ... and even then only if his cogs have gone awry and he's gone rogue.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 04:42:04 pm by Fairley B. Strange » Logged

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Madasasteamfish
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2015, 04:14:57 pm »

*Mod hat on*

Now I'm not going to do anything to this thread and the whys and wherefores of this don't break forum rules, but since this has the potential to get very heated and unpleasant I feel at least one mod should be keeping an eye on it, just in case. I (and I assume the other mods) don't want to have to wield my (our) banhammers on anyone for unpleasantness.


So just keep in mind this thread is being watched.

*mod hat off*
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 04:31:02 pm by Madasasteamfish » Logged

I made a note in my diary on the way over here. Simply says; "Bugger!"

"DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH."
Clym Angus
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2015, 04:46:47 pm »

Your candour in such matters is as always greatly appreciated. I like to think we can keep things civil.

Admittedly it is surfing the edge of the rule book. And my initial post was a touch inflammatory but firmly tongue in cheek. Would you expect anything less from me?

Mr Strange, I wholeheartedly agree apart from the mounting on the wall (but that's minor, and technically after the fact). Having grown up on a farm the removal of vermin and the humane killing of animals for food is a necessity that I took no pleasure in but had to be done. Stripping everything else away from this; as a child brought up on a small holding. This is shoddy workmanship. He shot the thing with a weapon ill equipped to do the job. He failed with said weapon to inflict a killing blow. He then spent the next two days chasing it down at which point he finally used a weapon up to the job.

If I'd 'dicked' around with one of the chickens to this extent on the farm. I would have been beaten black and blue by my father for being a sadistic incompetent son of a *****.

The politics is admittedly subjective. The method or the failure of which, speaks volumes.  
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:19:58 pm by Clym Angus » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2015, 04:47:54 pm »

So just keep in mind this thread is being watched.

Through the telescopic site of a large bore hunting rifle?  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2015, 05:00:16 pm »

I am a hunter.  I have no trophies, but understand the desire.  (I hunt for food....)    I was offered a chance to take a black bear with my chosen weapon and would have LOVED to do it, but it was not being done "in season", and I just couldn't violate the law that way....

Saying this, I am a defender of the hunters who pay big money to go get a once of a lifetime trophy in Africa.  

It is a big plus to the impoverished villages, usually only involves a sickly or old animal, and the villagers keep the meat (when it isn't ill based).   The setup is very globally beneficial to the animals as it provides revenue that supports the game parks and anti poaching efforts.  It removes the sick and over populated animals, and makes a healthier herd.
A lot of the folks who dismiss hunting fail to see it as a management device and a generator of financing that supports the healthy game populations.


Does that mean I am defending this guy?   Not at all.   Someone said he was escalating because of the different animals.   More telling is the fact that he has been in court before for violating hunting zones and seasons on a black bear hunt.
Since he had previously been in trouble, he should have been DOUBLY vigilant to make sure he was not in violation of any laws or rules.

I have no sympathy for him not doing his homework.     *But if I was offered a legit lion hunt I would likely go.
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Wormster
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 05:28:50 pm »

I have no problem with killing for food, heard health or to defend myself. And no I don't keep physical trophies, just notches on the stock, to record a kill. Because of the restrictive laws here I use a small .22 airifle and only take small game on land that I have permission to use.

I do however take issue with the idea of hunting for "sport", the method in which this particular "hunt" took place was completely inappropriate - using a crossbow (I can only think that this was used as they're a relatively "silent" weapon, and that the "hunter" was close to habitation/sensitive area.) then having to track a wounded, angry male Lion for two days before the inevitable "dispatch" with a firearm!, as others above have mentioned its a very tricky and emotive subject and I suspect that there is more detail to emerge over time.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 06:25:48 pm by Wormster » Logged

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Madasasteamfish
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2015, 06:43:28 pm »

So just keep in mind this thread is being watched.

Through the telescopic site of a large bore hunting rifle?  Wink

No, no. Merely the sights of my punt gun, although I may well downgrade it to a Nock gun (in my defence I'm a terrible shot, and need all the help I can get).
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Banfili
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 11:56:25 pm »

I seem to recall a Louis Theroux documentary (http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/louis-therouxs-african-hunting-holiday/) on this type of 'safari' with crossbows - for farmed animals, which sort of takes 'the heroic big game hunter' part of safari out of the equation. I understand 'hunting' to put food on the table, but for the life of me I can't understand 'shooting' purely for the dubious pleasure of a trophy. And lions are not on anyone's menu.

And I do like Fairley's big lion!
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Serrac
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2015, 12:59:25 am »

Would I shoot a dentist...?
Hmmmm... can I put him on my wall afterwards?   Grin


If you shot one, I have no objection to the head being mounted. Not sure I'd want to eat the meat though.  Shocked


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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2015, 02:16:17 am »

I'm not to happy with this dentist. I say, I want to see him face a court in the country where he committed the offense. The hunting practice was illegal and obviously intended to lure the animal with minimal noise so as to avert being spotted by the authorities. Besides that the method of killing (wounding the animal) is morally bankrupt when we have the tools to kill in one blow, as opposed to cavemen who were hunting mammoth with spears.

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Clym Angus
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2015, 11:15:29 am »

If he'd used a spear it might have been more of an even fight. There's a trophy for you, a negative volume trophy;

"and here is where the lion I was knife fighting took out my left kidney. We called it a draw."

Never loose a negative volume trophy, it's with you for life.
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The Corsair
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2015, 01:45:18 pm »

When this whole story first appeared it did cross my mind that my stance that what this man did was wrong was at odds with the Steampunk fantasy of the 'big game hunter'.

Then something occurred to me. The Steampunk fantasy of the safari-bound prize hunter is largely that; a fantasy. With firearms, it's always been easy to kill lions. They're some of the most docile big cats out there. They sleep most of the day away, and oftentimes if you get too close they will startle and flee. There's no 'mano al mano' with these beasts, no epic duel, no drawn-out stalking. You just find a sleeping one, take aim and pull the trigger.

And it's always been that way.

These 1800's adventurers were only barely more noble than this man, and that can only be said because this dentist made the beast suffer and broke the law doing it.

So the question I end up asking myself is this:
Am I against the easy killing of these creatures? Or am I against it being done illegally?

Truthfully? I don't know the answer. And as someone who doesn't personally hunt, I don't know if I ever will. I haven't even the first inkling of experience, so who am I to judge? All I know is that I can and will condemn someone who breaks the law in such a cowardly manner, knowingly and maliciously.
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I think I should also mention I had a dream about this game, only Bailey was a woman...

I assure you, that incident in Singapore was all a misunderstanding.
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2015, 02:05:16 pm »

Well said Corsair.


I hunt.   I use a crossbow.  I used to use bows I made.

Using a lesser weapon keeps it from being "too easy".  It gives the animal more of a chance.  You have to get closer, be a better Hunter.

This might not make sense,to everyone.  But it might to other hunters.

I am offended by the law breaking, but that is all.
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Prof Thadeus Q. Wychlock
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 03:32:23 pm »

I know everyone has the right to their own opinions and I respect that.
I have watched this issue develop since yesterday and this thread since this morning and now feel compelled to add my opinion to the mix.

Can someone explain to me where the pleasure is in taking the life of another creature for no other reason than personal vanity?

This was nothing but an exercise in chest beating, ego massage and hypothetical demonstration of masculinity - in its lowest possible form.

Reprehensible in my opinion.
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Fairley B. Strange
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2015, 04:56:27 pm »

To keep this debate in a period-appropriate setting...

This dentist ain't John Henry Patterson, and this wasn't Tsavo River.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsavo_Man-Eaters
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Atterton
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 04:58:45 pm »

Many of the early animal conservationists were also avid hunters. For example Teddy Roosevelt, who founded the first US national parks. It doesn't mean you dislike animals.
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 05:36:07 pm »

As I pointed out above, many of the CURRENT hunters are powerful leaders in conservation.

They see the tags permits and fees as a way to support healthy ecosystems, and managed hunting as a legitimate tool.


Consider deer herds.   With no predation the herd becomes overgrown for the region it is in.  In a fully natural setting, some animals (young males) leave.  They start new herds.   But on reserves and controlled land they stay.  Predation is limited due to lower numbers of wolves/ big cats etc.   So the herd grows.   Eventually it outgrown the resources, starvation, sickness and disease set in to the enclosed environment and large scale death occurs.

Culling helps maintain herd size and is completely natural (in the sense that whether it is a human or a large predator some animals would be taken)


Anyway.....  Nothing in this discussion is meant to defend an ass who poached.
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RJBowman
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 06:05:38 pm »

The problem with this case is that the dentist reportedly had a legal government-issued permit, and it is not clear that he was aware that his guides were luring protected animals from a preserve.
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GCCC
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2015, 06:32:58 pm »

Except that in more than one article I read it was reported that this was not his first offense, with a prior violation here in the states.

And what sorry excuse of a hunter are you when you can't see a fecking collar on an animal? Those things are hardly discrete.

(For the record, I fully support legal hunting, especially for food and management. I understand the sociological underpinnings of trophy hunting and respect that aspect, but that was simply never something I "got into".)

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2015, 06:52:48 pm »

The problem with this case is that the dentist reportedly had a legal government-issued permit, and it is not clear that he was aware that his guides were luring protected animals from a preserve.

They should have seen the collar when they were taking the dead animal in.  It is, according to the articles, a clearly established law that hunting collared animals is illlegal. Did the hunter turn the collar in to the authorities? Ignorance of the law - as in any of the United States, is not a valid excuse. The onus is on the hunter to know the law.
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GCCC
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2015, 07:01:38 pm »

The problem with this case is that the dentist reportedly had a legal government-issued permit, and it is not clear that he was aware that his guides were luring protected animals from a preserve.

They should have seen the collar when they were taking the dead animal in.  It is, according to the articles, a clearly established law that hunting collared animals is illlegal. Did the hunter turn the collar in to the authorities? Ignorance of the law - as in any of the United States, is not a valid excuse. The onus is on the hunter to know the law.

Those tracking collars are pretty noticeable; they should have seen the collar before they fired on the animal.
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Ranger Reid
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2015, 07:07:38 pm »

Crossbow effective distance is 50yrds.   He HAD to see the collar (imo)
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Atterton
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2015, 07:14:50 pm »

Perhaps he thought it was a fashion thing.
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