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Author Topic: The Great Debate. Is it? or isn't it? Are they? Aren't they?  (Read 997 times)
MarcusJuliusCroft
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« on: July 25, 2014, 11:11:12 am »

I was thinking, and I thought I'd start a thread on those most important questions, which have no real relevance in the world, but still are fun to debate and cause a lot of division.  For example,

Who believes that Indigo is or isn't a colour of the rainbow?
Are aquamarine and turquoise the same colour?
Was Pluto rightly demoted to dwarf planet?
Which is better, tea? or coffee?

I was going to put this in metaphysical, but decided that it is pretty open to sabotage and all out war, so it is better to put it in off topic.
And for your infomation, Indigo is a colour, aquamarine and turquoise are different colours, Pluto was unfairly demoted, and I am not going to take sides between tea and coffee, anyone who want's to argue otherwise is welcome.
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Ada Thorold
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 11:36:27 am »

I am going to have to disagree with you with regards to Pluto. It does have historical significance as the first of the trans Neptunian objects to be found but otherwise is unremarkable compared to its neighbours. It was 8 or hundreds of planets - where do you draw the line?

And the tea vs coffee question entirely depends on the time of day.

~A~
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MarcusJuliusCroft
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 12:00:33 pm »

I am going to have to disagree with you with regards to Pluto. It does have historical significance as the first of the trans Neptunian objects to be found but otherwise is unremarkable compared to its neighbours. It was 8 or hundreds of planets - where do you draw the line?

And the tea vs coffee question entirely depends on the time of day.

~A~

Yes, but what reasons are given for it having been demoted?   Just because approximately 5% of astronomers voted, what does that mean for the other 95% who did not?  And why did they not make the reasons more clear cut?  Because, being demoted on a technicality which is extremely blurred, is not what you call a fair decision.
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bicyclebuilder
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 12:01:11 pm »

When it comes to believing that Indigo is a colour of the rainbow, I have to say that I'm an athiest. I don't believe there is something bitween heaven and earth blue and violet, just shades of blueish violet and violettish blue.

As for aquamarine, that is a greenisch blue while turquise is a color bitween blue and cyane.

I don't think one should call Pluto a dwarf planet. I think the politically correct term is little people planet. Or vertically challanged planet.

My stomache can't stand coffee, so it has to be tea for me.


For an important question to debate, I have this question: Is there a single name for the divider bitween clients at the supermarket? If there isn't, what should it been called?
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 12:13:48 pm »

The perception of distinct separate colors is due to the fact that the human eye has three different types of colour receptors, red green and blue. This also gives secondary colours; cyan, magenta and yellow.

This is the additive colour model, which is most appropriate for discussing rainbows as it's based on combinations of frequencies of light, the subtractive colour model is slightly different in that it's based on the reflection of white light by pigments but both give 3 primary and 3 secondary colours.

Therefor there is a physical reason why humans tend to interpret a continuous spectrum of refracted light as distinct bands of colour, but there are 6 or them not 7. 7 stuck becasue it was deemed a more 'significant' number than boring old 6.

Turquoise and aquamarine are both minerals and the colour of turquoise, in particular can vary quite a bit. In terms of naming specific colours, that's only ever going to be a convention and there are numerous ways of defining a specific colour so there's never going to be a definitive answer.
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Ada Thorold
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 12:21:18 pm »

I am going to have to disagree with you with regards to Pluto. It does have historical significance as the first of the trans Neptunian objects to be found but otherwise is unremarkable compared to its neighbours. It was 8 or hundreds of planets - where do you draw the line?

And the tea vs coffee question entirely depends on the time of day.

~A~

Yes, but what reasons are given for it having been demoted?   Just because approximately 5% of astronomers voted, what does that mean for the other 95% who did not?  And why did they not make the reasons more clear cut?  Because, being demoted on a technicality which is extremely blurred, is not what you call a fair decision.

I agree the reasons were not well communicated. Basically several bodies had been found with a size roughly equivalent mass to Pluto but smaller. It was then recognized that Pluto was not unique but was allowed to remain a planet as it was still the largest. When Eris was discovered things got complicated because Eris is larger than Pluto. If Pluto was a planet then Eris was also a planet. But if these 2 were, why not Makemake and Sedna and Haumea and ..... The list goes on and on. We would have had hundreds of planets. A line had to be drawn and it was more logical to draw it above Pluto and Eris than below. The decision to deplanetise Pluto was not unprecedented, Ceres in the Asteroid belt was named a planet on its discovery in 1801, but when other asteroids were discovered in the following years it was demoted to asteroid. It was promoted again to dwarf planet by the new classification by virtue of being spherical(ish).

On a slight aside, the naming of Eris and its moon Dysnomia is a bit of a joke. Planet hunters who discovered Eris were looking for Planet X, which they announced they were going to call Xena after the character played by Lucy Lawless. But they were told this was not a good name for a planet and they had to use the Greco-Roman naming conventions. So they chose Eris (goddess of strife and discord) to reference the trouble caused to poor Pluto. When it was discovered that Eris had a moon they logically named it after Eris's daughter Dysnomia. Dysnomia is the goddess of lawlessness....

~A~



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MarcusJuliusCroft
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 12:41:13 pm »

I wasn't too fussed about them demoting it because of the fact that it was similar in size to Eris, and those others.  However I believe the definition of planet is inherently flawed, mainly because Pluto does in fact satisfy all the requirements.  The IAU stated that Pluto failed on part 3, but it is a technicality, because to follow that definition, Earth and Jupiter among others would not be defined as planets.  I am pretty sure it was the part to do with "clearing its orbit".  It is very vague, because while Pluto "hasn't" cleared its orbit, neither Earth or Jupiter has, and it was demoted because it "hasn't to the extent of" the others, cleared its orbit/
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Atterton
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 08:28:27 pm »

Pluto also has a moon larger than half it's own size. That would make it a double planet.
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Ada Thorold
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 09:00:47 pm »

I wasn't too fussed about them demoting it because of the fact that it was similar in size to Eris, and those others.  However I believe the definition of planet is inherently flawed, mainly because Pluto does in fact satisfy all the requirements.  The IAU stated that Pluto failed on part 3, but it is a technicality, because to follow that definition, Earth and Jupiter among others would not be defined as planets.  I am pretty sure it was the part to do with "clearing its orbit".  It is very vague, because while Pluto "hasn't" cleared its orbit, neither Earth or Jupiter has, and it was demoted because it "hasn't to the extent of" the others, cleared its orbit/


Yeah, the 'cleared its orbit' part had many critics, me included. But if you take the general gist of it, i.e. it needs to be the dominant body in its part of space, then Pluto fails, Earth and Jupiter do not. The definition was flawed but ultimately I feel the decision was right (and hopefully someone will fix the wording some day). In addition Pluto has attributes not shared by the 8 main planets, including its highly elliptical orbit which lies outside the plane of the ecliptic which also mark it as an outsider.

If the definition of a planet had been better worded would you agree with the decision?

~A~
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rovingjack
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 09:27:01 pm »

red and yellow make orange, blue and yellow make green, red and blue make purple/violet, there are three primaries and three secondaries that fit between them. Indigo is not one of either of those sets. Near as I can tell it's introduction was to help with ROYGB(I)V because nobody could pronounce GBV. and color theory has been irreparably harmed by this foolishness.

Aquamarine and turquoise are not the same color, neither are turquoise and turquoise or aquamarine and aquamarine. These are more often than not general areas or directions in a color spectrum. There may be slight overlap at the edges of their spheres of color influence but the do differ. Another example of what I mean is brick red, have a look at a brick wall sometime, there will be varience between color of the bricks but they are all clearly brick red and not burgundy or crimson though some may graze those colors.

I will first say that it amuses me to some degree that scientists found Eris and in the following days confusion as to plutos status came about, ultimately resulting in the demotion of a planet bareing the name that was also applied to a god of wealth... and then we went into a global financial meltdown.  Cheesy

Bu that aside I'd be game for a few more planets, but at the same time I feel it should be determined that they in fact orbit the sun and their path is regular and does not have irregular variance from the basic elyptical course. In short if it orbits the sun and doesn't do so in a scribbly path that is diverted in any other direction for short periods of orbiting something else then I feel its safe to say it's a satallite of the sun and thus a planet.

If you have to add six or twelve new ones in the range outside of neptunes orbit then fine we can call pre-asteroid belt inner, pre-kyperbelt middle and everything after outer solar system with outer planets being the smaller ice globes in orbit around the sun amongst icy clouds of smaller objects in nonorbital paths.

define better. and define tea. herbal teas are not real teas, but tisanes. Even if you exclude herbals there are a broader range of tea types than there are coffees. The medicinal values of teas and tisanes or even just green and oolong are varied and documented, coffee is much more limited in that regard though it does have some values. For health, variety and flavor choices I'd have to weigh in on teas as being better, but if your preferences are not in any of those areas then it would change the answer because the question is relative.
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MarcusJuliusCroft
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 11:47:03 pm »



Yeah, the 'cleared its orbit' part had many critics, me included. But if you take the general gist of it, i.e. it needs to be the dominant body in its part of space, then Pluto fails, Earth and Jupiter do not. The definition was flawed but ultimately I feel the decision was right (and hopefully someone will fix the wording some day). In addition Pluto has attributes not shared by the 8 main planets, including its highly elliptical orbit which lies outside the plane of the ecliptic which also mark it as an outsider.

If the definition of a planet had been better worded would you agree with the decision?

~A~
[/quote]

Haha, Yes, I do agree if the wording was better I would accept it, because as it stands, we have a rogue body out there with an atmosphere and 4 moons that as it stands, we aren't allowed to count as a planet.  I believe, at the moment they are not sure of the relative sizes of Pluto and Eris, until New Horizons(I think) shoots past Pluto in the next few years, until then we wont know much.

[/quote]
I will first say that it amuses me to some degree that scientists found Eris and in the following days confusion as to plutos status came about, ultimately resulting in the demotion of a planet bareing the name that was also applied to a god of wealth... and then we went into a global financial meltdown.
[/quote]
That is karma my dear fellow, you don't get away with demoting the King of the Underworld and letting his little brothers and father stand, without risking the wrath.  Personally I think it would be better if we classified them as the Inner Eight and Pluto and Co, and then the Outer How Many, separate but all on par and no dwarves in sight.  We could rename that area of space as Erebus, and not make any references to size or the other eight.

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MWBailey
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 03:17:57 am »

*ahem* Pluto's a cartoon dog, you know. I wasn't aware he had any rank to speak of.
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Ada Thorold
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 02:16:35 pm »



Yeah, the 'cleared its orbit' part had many critics, me included. But if you take the general gist of it, i.e. it needs to be the dominant body in its part of space, then Pluto fails, Earth and Jupiter do not. The definition was flawed but ultimately I feel the decision was right (and hopefully someone will fix the wording some day). In addition Pluto has attributes not shared by the 8 main planets, including its highly elliptical orbit which lies outside the plane of the ecliptic which also mark it as an outsider.

If the definition of a planet had been better worded would you agree with the decision?

~A~

Haha, Yes, I do agree if the wording was better I would accept it, because as it stands, we have a rogue body out there with an atmosphere and 4 moons that as it stands, we aren't allowed to count as a planet.  I believe, at the moment they are not sure of the relative sizes of Pluto and Eris, until New Horizons(I think) shoots past Pluto in the next few years, until then we wont know much.


I will first say that it amuses me to some degree that scientists found Eris and in the following days confusion as to plutos status came about, ultimately resulting in the demotion of a planet bareing the name that was also applied to a god of wealth... and then we went into a global financial meltdown.

That is karma my dear fellow, you don't get away with demoting the King of the Underworld and letting his little brothers and father stand, without risking the wrath.  Personally I think it would be better if we classified them as the Inner Eight and Pluto and Co, and then the Outer How Many, separate but all on par and no dwarves in sight.  We could rename that area of space as Erebus, and not make any references to size or the other eight.

Although the sizes are unknown I think the masses of Pluto and Eris have been determined by looking their moon's orbits (although how escapes me at the moment).

The dwarf name is a little demeaning to these gods I agree. I think the original paper had them named as planets and the other 8 as uberplanets or somesuch. I am interested to see what will happen to the definition once we get enough information about extrasolar planets. At the other end can we find the exact cut off between a gas giant and a brown dwarf?

~A~
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Prof Thadeus Q. Wychlock
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 08:03:06 am »


Although the sizes are unknown I think the masses of Pluto and Eris have been determined by looking their moon's orbits (although how escapes me at the moment).

The dwarf name is a little demeaning to these gods I agree. I think the original paper had them named as planets and the other 8 as uberplanets or somesuch. I am interested to see what will happen to the definition once we get enough information about extrasolar planets. At the other end can we find the exact cut off between a gas giant and a brown dwarf?

~A~



I'm sorry to politely disagree with you Ada but the size of pluto is quite well defined. It is 1,430 miles in diameter and has been photographed many times by the Hubble space telescope.

As for everything else .....
pluto - definitely a dwarf planet
turquoise and aquamarine definitely different colours.
and ......
it has to be a cup of tea all the way !
(unless you are the proprietor of this coffee house)

just my 2p on these issues Smiley
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 01:20:18 pm by Prof Thadeus Q. Wychlock » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 11:37:10 am »


Although the sizes are unknown I think the masses of Pluto and Eris have been determined by looking their moon's orbits (although how escapes me at the moment).

The dwarf name is a little demeaning to these gods I agree. I think the original paper had them named as planets and the other 8 as uberplanets or somesuch. I am interested to see what will happen to the definition once we get enough information about extrasolar planets. At the other end can we find the exact cut off between a gas giant and a brown dwarf?

~A~



I'm sorry to politely disagree with you Ada but the size of pluto is quite well defined. It is 1,430 miles in diameter and has been photographed my times by the Hubble space telescope.

As for everything else .....
pluto - definitely a dwarf planet
turquoise and aquamarine definitely different colours.
and ......
it has to be a cup of tea all the way !
(unless you are the proprietor of this coffee house)

just my 2p on these issues Smiley


Ah yes, my mistake. Thank you.

~A~
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Sorontar
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2014, 12:21:24 pm »

I disagree that these questions are of no relevance.

Sorontar
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MarcusJuliusCroft
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 12:26:45 pm »

I disagree that these questions are of no relevance.

Sorontar
Why so?  I was going to say that they were most relevant to every day life, but then people would accuse me of telling lies.  Let us debate this.
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 03:33:32 pm »

*ahem* Pluto's a cartoon dog, you know. I wasn't aware he had any rank to speak of.

 the real conundrum being he appears to be similar breed of canine to  Goofy
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Ada Thorold
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 05:33:13 pm »

*ahem* Pluto's a cartoon dog, you know. I wasn't aware he had any rank to speak of.

 the real conundrum being he appears to be similar breed of canine to  Goofy

Next question: Is Goofy a planet?

~A~
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MarcusJuliusCroft
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 05:41:38 pm »

*ahem* Pluto's a cartoon dog, you know. I wasn't aware he had any rank to speak of.

 the real conundrum being he appears to be similar breed of canine to  Goofy

Next question: Is Goofy a planet?

~A~
Hmmmm Good Question, I am rather tempted to start a petition to name the next planet we find near Pluto as Goofy, that should settle things up a little bit.
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creagmor
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2014, 06:42:27 pm »

the question of color names are at best nebulous. e.g. "Jade green": jade comes in several colors. some specimens are almost white, and I have been told that the most prized version is called "apple green", and so it goes.  
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:48:10 am by creagmor » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2014, 11:15:01 pm »

It is pretty silly to name colors, but it gets much worse; even if we take the broadest category of colors "blue, yellow, green, etc", the distinction is fairly arbitrary. Orange, for example is defined as being between 590-620nm in wavelength. Why? Who knows? It's not like we can really tell the difference between 589nm and 590nm.. or 620 and 621nm. The lower ranges could easily be 'mistaken' for yellow, the higher for red..

..and then there's the problem of pink..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9dqJRyk0YM

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