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Poll
Question: I Am....
Of the first nations of my country - 0 (0%)
A metis/mestisso/local equivallent - 1 (14.3%)
Officially white but of aboriginal descent (due to the great number of people in this case, only pick if you get the birthmark or if you tan easilly) - 2 (28.6%)
100% Paleface - 4 (57.1%)
Total Voters: 7

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Author Topic: The Longhouse: A Gathering For Steampunker Of Aboriginal Descent  (Read 5948 times)
Wormster
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2014, 10:11:47 pm »

According to the clever genetics folk in Salt Lake City (yes that christian mob) back in the day my family's genetic make up is Basque.

My "Owd Man" has been at the family history game for over 20 years odd, tracing our family history back through the English parish records (both on the male & female side (female is worse apparently- got summat to do with taking husband's surname at marriage).

Anyway the family make up is of farming stock from Wiltshire (especially the Devises/Lacock/Chippenham area), I'm a county too far west, seeing as I live in deepest, darkest Somerset!!
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2014, 11:33:52 pm »

According to the clever genetics folk in Salt Lake City (yes that christian mob) back in the day my family's genetic make up is Basque.

My "Owd Man" has been at the family history game for over 20 years odd, tracing our family history back through the English parish records (both on the male & female side (female is worse apparently- got summat to do with taking husband's surname at marriage).

Anyway the family make up is of farming stock from Wiltshire (especially the Devises/Lacock/Chippenham area), I'm a county too far west, seeing as I live in deepest, darkest Somerset!!

Ongi etorri Euskal taldera! Welcome to the Basque group!  The closest I ever was to that area was Biarritz on the French side.  My grandfather's family originates from the Valley of Baztan.  I need to go some day.  The Basque are very proud and controversial people in Spain as of late, but on this side of the pond we are very good natured.  

~ ~ ~
On the cultural remainder of Natives... 

Why not talk about the clothing, food and culture of the Native peoples?


In Mexico a great part of the population continued wearing Native garb or adaptations of native garb; Native clothing was fused with Spanish clothing and materials, and the native influence is particularly visible in women's fashion.  Have you noticed that native garb from around the world is almost universally very colourful?  Why do you think that is?

Sami woman wearing a traditional Kola dress

Mexican woman from the state of Campeche is wearing a Huipil ("oo-ee-peel") dress which is very close to the original native dresses but was adapted to Spanish textiles and European embellishments such as lace, which you see everywhere in Mexico (Lace was important in Spain, because during the reign of Philip II of Spain in 1555 he wa the lord of the Seventeen Provinces of the Netherlands.  So lace became a commodity in the trade between the Spanish colonies and Europe).

These Mexican girls' expression is worth a thousand words  Grin  That's some stare they gave the camera man
The one in the middle is thinking, "you are about 5 seconds away from getting your ass whooped..."  Grin
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 03:56:25 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2014, 09:48:59 am »

My "Owd Man" has been at the family history game for over 20 years odd, tracing our family history back through the English parish records (both on the male & female side (female is worse apparently- got summat to do with taking husband's surname at marriage).

An unfair advantage in the Spanish world.  You get to keep both paternal and maternal surnames as a compound surname.  And the people you talk about are the Mormon.  They believe in the second coming of Christ and that families ties transcend the afterlife so they are tied forever, hence they pay a lot of attention to genealogy.
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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2014, 05:40:31 pm »

Yeah ain't that the truth about the mormons.

Dad did send off a sample and they did whatever to it and came back with that particular general region of Europe.
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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2014, 09:24:47 pm »

Yeah ain't that the truth about the mormons.

Dad did send off a sample and they did whatever to it and came back with that particular general region of Europe.


It perfectly possible, because contact between different people in Europe is very common.  The origin of the Basques is hotly contested though.  Genetic data suggests they are no as old as they claim, so they are not Neolithic peoples, but linguists still place them contemporaneously with other peoples who spoke languages older than Indo-European, so they might still be considered natives.

Basque Ioaldunak dancers

The Basque have an interesting religion and mythology.  

Quote
Pre-Christian religion and mythology
Anboto mountain is one of sites where Mari was believed to dwell
Main article: Basque mythology

Christianisation of the Basque Country has been the topic of some discussion. There are broadly speaking two views. According to one, Christianity arrived in the Basque Country during the 4th and 5th centuries but according to the other, it did not take place until the 12th and 13th centuries. The main issue lies in the different interpretations of what is considered Christianisation. Early traces of Christianity can be found in the major urban areas from the 4th century onwards, a bishopric from 589 in Pamplona and three hermit cave concentrations (two in Álava, one in Navarre) were in use from the 6th century onwards. In this sense, Christianity arrived "early".

Pre-Christian belief seems to have focused on a goddess called Mari. A number of place-names contain her name and would suggest these places were related to worship of her such as Anbotoko Mari who appears to have been related to the weather. According to one tradition, she traveled every seven years between a cave on Mount Anboto and one on another mountain (the stories vary); the weather would be wet when she was in Anboto, dry when she was in Aloña, or Supelegor, or Gorbea. One of her names, Mari Urraca possibly ties her to an historical Navarrese princess of the 11th and 12th century, with other legends giving her a brother or cousin who was a Roman Catholic priest. So far the discussions about whether the name Mari is original and just happened to coincide closely with the Christian name María or if Mari is an early Basque attempt to give a Christian veneer to pagan worship have remained speculative.

Mari's consort is Sugaar. This chthonic couple seem to bear the superior ethical power and also the power of creation and destruction. It's said that when they gathered in the high caves of the sacred peaks, they engendered the storms. These meetings typically happened on Friday nights, the day of historical akelarre or coven. Mari was said to reside in Mount Anboto; periodically she crossed the skies as a bright light to reach her other home at mount Txindoki.

Legends also speak of many and abundant genies, like jentilak (equivalent to giants), lamiak (equivalent to nymphs), mairuak (builders of the cromlechs or stone circles, literally Moors), iratxoak (imps), sorginak (witches, priestess of Mari), and so on. Basajaun is a Basque version of the Woodwose. There is a trickster named San Martin Txiki ("St Martin the Lesser").

It has been shown that some of these stories have entered Basque culture in recent centuries or as part of Roman superstition. It is unclear whether neolithic stone structures called dolmens have a religious significance or were built to house animals or resting shepherds. Some of the dolmens and cromlechs are burial sites serving as well as border markers.
Ioaldunak dancers of Navarre.

The jentilak ('Giants'), on the other hand, are a legendary people which explains the disappearance of a people of Stone Age culture that used to live in the high lands and with no knowledge of the iron. Many legends about them tell that they were bigger and taller, with a great force, but were displaced by the ferrons, or workers of ironworks foundries, until their total fade-out. They were pagans, but one of them, Olentzero, accepted Christianity and became a sort of Basque Santa Claus. They gave name to several toponyms, as Jentilbaratza.


See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people
And here are some mythological characters from Basque lore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_mythology

Also the Basque had a strong favouritism toward matrilineages, and women in antiquity are said to have traditionally occupied an equal status with men.


~ ~ ~ ~

The animist references kind of remind me of that Hayao Miyazaki film, Princess Mononoke a historical fantasy which revolves around the Emishi people (related to the Ainu), their clash with the Japanese and Japanese animism in the 1300s...

Princess Mononoke Trailer
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 10:43:43 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2014, 10:06:52 pm »

BTW I found the whole -length movie online. The video compression is not of the best quality mind you, but it's a nice movie

Princess Mononoke
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/3371638
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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2014, 11:57:14 pm »

Fascinating thread and I love Princess Mononoke - has to be one of my favourite films.

My heritage on my Mum's side is mostly Irish by the way of Wales (potato blight forced them to move, so they settled in the valleys and became coal miners) with a little Romany blood from her dad's side - possibly his grandma? We look pretty Celtic generally - I'm massively pale skinned and my hair turns quite red in the sun, but my mum and two of her siblings have eyes so dark they are nearly black and dark hair. I go back to the village in Wales that my nana grew up in and all the old people know I'm part of her family because of our high cheekbones. I have really short legs like my mum so I joke that we're built like pit ponies from the generations of mining!

My dad's side is complicated because his mum was adopted, so all we know about her dad is that he was 'a sailor who came up the Manchester ship canal', but her, my dad and his brother all have very black hair and tan dark, very easily so the best fit theory is Mediterranean/Middle East/possibly Jewish heritage in there (my uncle's facial structure looks somewhat Jewish?). His dad's side were all Irish as far as we know (which explains my dad having very blue eyes), some of whom emigrated to America which is how I'm related to Michael Moore. My half-brother has the same black hair but is even paler than me, so that must be his mum's family?

I'm something like 3/8 Irish, 1/4 Welsh and then mostly unknown. I'd love to do more digging though. Perhaps a DNA test would be enlightening. I like being a bit of a mongrel and love that my close family on dad's side now is a real multicultural mix with Bangladeshi and Trinidadian heritage too - my rainbow family =]

Love hearing about all of your antecedents in this thread - wish I had pictures of mine!!
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2014, 05:13:48 am »

*A serving trolley rolls by.  The cart has a large covered tub with steam coming out of it*


Time for refreshments, courtesy of the Long House tribal council.  I have sweet Tamales, Churros, hot chocolate and Atole, please serve yourselves...

Tamales and Atole are both Native (pre-Hispanic) foods
Tamales are steamed maize corn-cakes (better description than cornbread) which can be made sweet with raisings and dried fruit or savoury with meat and spicy sauce filling. They are usually steamed in corn husks or banana leaves.
 
Atole is a hot maize porridge-like drink with sweet flavouring like vanilla, strawberry or chocolate.

Cocoa is of course native - when the Spanish mixed it with sugar that became the first kind of chocolate.

Churros are non-native, and come from Spain (speculated to come from China originally), but they're darn good, so you will see them often paired with hot chocolate.

English/Spanish     Native Language
Cocoa/Cacao          = Cacahuatl (Nahuatl i.e. Mexica/"Aztec")
                               =  Cacao (Maya)
Tamale/Tamal        = Tamali (Nahuatl i.e. Mexica/"Aztec")
                               = Uah (Maya)
Atole/Atole             = Atolli (Nahuatl i.e. Mexica/"Aztec")

Image from Florentine codex (written right after the Spanish conquest, circa 1545-1590)
Aztec women steam tamales and cook a turkey to celebrate the birth of a child

~ ~ ~
Fruit Tamal             = xocotamalli Pronounced "shoco-tah-mah-lee"
Fish Tamal             = michpiltamalli Proniunced "Mitch-peel-tah-mah-lee"
Worm Tamal  Tongue    =  ocuiltamalli Pronounced "oh-coo-eel-tah-mah-lee" (we don't serve these here)
Iguana Tamal        =  huh-hua (Maya) Pronounced "who-ogh-who-ah" (this shouldn't be too bad)

Sweet "candy-flavoured" tamales

Hot Chocolate and Churros

Vanilla flavoured Atole

(I just went by the Dragon Tamers room next door and offered the same)

~ ~ ~

EDIT:  I have added this video below on how to make tamales which I used in the Food Food Food thread, because it's a great reference!

HOW TO MAKE TAMALES (VIDEO)

http://allrecipes.com/video/141/how-to-make-tamales/detail.aspx

~ ~ ~
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2014, 09:53:18 am »

Hahahahahaha!  The things I find on the Internet!  I was looking for references relating to the above posts when I stumble on this "second life"gizmo:

"Mrs. Triqui" The tamal street vendor.  Only L$500! (whatever that is).
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Tamalera-Triqui-Los-Tamales/2074598
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2014, 02:36:58 pm »

As the Native Americans recognized the Welsh miners to be an indigenous people during the miners strike of the early 80's where does that put the Celts in Britain? While at university I remember having discussions about that with people from A.I.M. and they backed me.

I'm aboriginal British, not some 'johnny come lately' Roman, Anglo Saxon, Norman, Viking etc....do I count (I live half an hours walk from Queen Boudica's stronghold)?
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« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2014, 09:50:57 am »

Does anyone know of a good genealogy service that might identify my ancestry? Bearing in mind, I am unemployed, so I can't spend too much.
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« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2014, 11:34:24 am »

As the Native Americans recognized the Welsh miners to be an indigenous people during the miners strike of the early 80's where does that put the Celts in Britain? While at university I remember having discussions about that with people from A.I.M. and they backed me.

I'm aboriginal British, not some 'johnny come lately' Roman, Anglo Saxon, Norman, Viking etc....do I count (I live half an hours walk from Queen Boudica's stronghold)?

Unfortunately it seems to me the definitions are really clear-as-mud. often citing a history with the land, an identity based on the perpetuation of customs and historical ties with a geographic region, and last but not least a history of oppression and marginalisation by newer arrivasl.  In that sense, many people get counted as natives.

Now, in the case of the Americas, the definition is greatly simplified, for it happens that most ethnic groups belong to a single racial class of settlers who arrived between 12,000 and 5,000 years ago in three major migration waves from Eurasia..  By that token anyone not included in those arrivals is a newcomer, and hence non-native.  Vikings and Spaniards arriving to the American coasts would definitely be non-native.

But in Eurasia, the picture is far more complicated.  Indeed, who is to say Celts should not be native?  The Basques have an advantage in being able to claim, at least linguistic evidence that they *might* precede the arrival of the Celts, and have one of the oldest and most disconnected branches of language known. and hence it's attractive to claim them to be First Peoples in the area during the late Neolithic period.   But the reality if that Mesolithic people were there before, and the Celts would have arrived after. 

Similarly Celtic Britons arrived during the late iron age, and presumably there were others before them, during the Neolithic and prior to that.  The immediately preceding group behind the Britons in Wales would be those who built chromlechs about 5000 years ago.

But those people who preceded the Celts and the Basques don't exist any more, in Wales these ancient people were presumably  assimilated, displaced or killed off by post Neolithic arrivals around 4000 years ago, and hence the Celtic Britons would be the oldest group still tied to that land - that could qualify them as Welsh Native, especially if they hold fast to their culture and ancient traditions today.

The political "requirement" that Natives have to be "marginalized" or "exploited" people in order to be native just sounds bogus to me as a definition.  Same goes for the belief that natives always lived in perfect harmony with nature.  The Aztec and Classic Maya were native and they were brutal in their mismanagement of natural resources, for example.  A lot closer to their European counterparts, in terms of warfare, conquest and greed.

I prefer archaeological and cultural definitions, instead.  So I'd say that if 1) you are the oldest group still continuously living in that area and if 2) You maintain a tradition culture which is to a certain extent different from others and unchanged since antiquity, then you are native in my book.
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« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2014, 11:40:24 am »

Does anyone know of a good genealogy service that might identify my ancestry? Bearing in mind, I am unemployed, so I can't spend too much.

There are quite a few traditional geneology sources available free on the Internet such as freereg and FreeBMD. However I don't think these have much in the way of Scottish records as these have mainly been kept separate. Try a larger library (where local records are kept rather than just to borrow books) as many of these will have free access to subscriptions to sites such as ancestry, find my past and probably to Scottish records as well. Many of these sites also have free family tree builders so you can access your discoveries at home. If you want any help starting pm me, I'm always happy to have a new challenge.

As for genetic geneology, it is still quite expensive with family tree dna and ancestry dna charging $99 for their family origins tests. However family tree dna have frequent sales so maybe keep an eye out. This gives you a breakdown of your probable genetic ancestry and matches you with potential cousins (although this part is still being refined, it keeps finding cousins of mine I couldn't possibly be related to in the 3-5 generations it says).

Back on to the main thread, my dna results put me in the usual British genetic soup with native british, mainland European and Scandinavian roots, I even have some middle eastern in there for good measure. According to my dad's results I am a (very) distant cousin of the Native American people as he is Y-haplogroup Q which seems to be the same as much of the Americas. After reaching Siberia my ancestors went west, and merged with the local Scandinavians, before probably arriving in Britain with the Vikings, the others went east to America.
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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2014, 01:56:29 pm »

J.Willhem: I heartily agree with your definition.
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The word pagan came from paganus , who mean peasant . Its was a way to significate than christianism was the religion of the elite and paganism the one of the savage worker class.

''Trickster shows us how we trick OURSELVES. Her rampant curiosity backfires, but, then, something NEW is discovered (though usually not what She expected)! This is where creativity comes from—experiment, do something different, maybe even something forbidden, and voila! A breakthrough occurs! Ha! Ha! We are released! The world is created anew! Do something backwards, break your own traditions, the barrier breaks; destroy the world as you know it, let the new in.''
Extract of the Dreamflesh article ''Path of The Sacred Clown''
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2014, 05:44:24 am »

Does anyone know of a good genealogy service that might identify my ancestry? Bearing in mind, I am unemployed, so I can't spend too much.

Mr. Wormster has mentioned the Mormons in Salt Lake City.  It's true- to see why, let me explain; besides believing in the second coming of Christ, (and having abandoned polygamy in the 20th. C. two things that they are known for), the Mormons also believe that families are united forever, so they see it as their duty to keep track of the origin of every single human being on Earth.

Although seemingly creepy (for any one to want to know everyone's genealogy), their research is actually immensely useful, and they are known to have some of the the best records available around the planet, because they don't stop with the United States.  One of the duties of young Mormons is to go out and evangelise, and help poor people and such naturally, but more importantly the young people get sent into missionary work around the globe with the task of gathering genealogical data.  So looking on the Internet with one of those firms like, Ms. Thorold suggests becomes easier, especially if they are affiliated with the Mormon church.
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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2014, 07:18:57 pm »

well I just went back to my genetic data, and they must have updated the knowledge, the format or both. Because there pops up a sliver of my native blood. Still showing as more dilute than the actual heritage would suggest but given the lottery of genetic inheritance that's not completely unimaginable.
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2014, 08:38:07 am »

Dear ladies and gentlemen:  By way of curiosity, do we have any more ideas on Native People? How about Native Steampunk?

An old thread of mine touches on the concept of Mayan Steampunk and the commonality between Samhain (precursor to Halloween) and the Mexican Day of the Dead (incorporated into the Catholic holiday combo of All Saints' Day and All Soul's Day)

Interesting image in link (can't display directly due to copyright - but the image is well worth it

Image: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=225601

Original thread: http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27548.msg608971.html#msg608971


From Wikipedia regarding Samhain:


Quote
The Gaels believed that the border between this world and the otherworld became thin on Samhain; because so many animals and plants were dying, it thus allowed the dead to reach back through the veil that separated them from the living.
 

It seems that even though great emphasis is placed on separating the two holidays, from the point of view of the ancients, similar ideas existed in two separate parts of the world.  Of course, we don't know exactly when the original Mesoamerican rituals happened (as the Spanish friars were very thorough in the elimination of almost any vestiges), but it wouldn't surprise me if the date was close to the end of October.   It was just the Catholic church compaginating the dates.  The common denominator between Samhain and the Day of the Dead is the breaking down of the barriers between the physical and the spirit worlds.

So it is implied acient peoples had similar ideas.  The concept of communion with the dead was commonplace among the Aztec, and much more so among the Maya.   Burning scrolls of paper soaked in his or her own blood, a Maya would create a pillar of smoke that connected the underworld or the heavens to the middle world, so he or she could converse with his/her ancestors.  In this model there was no relation between the Mayan underworld or sky at all to the heaven and hell in the Christian sense, as the underworld would rotate around the earth once a day and become visible at night in the form of the stars, the constellations and the Milky Way...

In fact, you could connect the three levels of the universe (Heavens Earth and the Underworld) in various ways;  The Milky Way itself was related to a type of "Tree of Life" whose roots were in the underworld and its branches were in the heavens.  As the earth rotated so did the "tree."  And the planetary motions were in fact re-enactments of actions by the gods in the Mayan pantheon.

Hence like other ancient peoples, they became obsessed with studying the movements of the celestial bodies.  The Mayans became obsessed with time as a means of predicting the stellar movements.  From that, came the 20-base number system including the mathematical concept of Zero, and a calendar that (by way of the 20-base) is more accurate than our own Julian and Gregorian calendars.

In Mayan grammar, a sentence would be started by writing the date and/or time first, then they would state the action taking place at that time, and finally the subject or actor of said action.  So time was of extreme importance in that society.  In contrast, Aztecs or Inca would not place such a strong emphasis in their religion and every day life. (the source for this info is any number of texts by the famous epigrapher,  Linda Schele (R.I.P.) from the University of Texas at Austin)

So I wonder... if the Classic Maya had not succumbed Circa 1000 AD, would they have become a "Clockwork Culture?"   Steampunk by way of Horology perhaps?  What would a "foreign" culture, isolated from the rest of the world evolve into by the time that the industrial revolution arrived?

There is one fantastic illustration at the CGTalk forum called  "The Goddess of Tick Tock" by a Korean artist, Song Jae Hwon a/k/a "Jisol"  which you can see here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=225601

I don't know if it was intentional, but the look is decidedly Mayan, or at least Mayan-inspired, and by the title, it does suggest a clockwork deity of some sort.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 08:45:40 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2014, 09:40:58 pm »

Most 'indigenous / aboriginal steampunks' would utilize gears with 4 spokes (Celtic, American, Australian etc) while those from the area around the middle east would use 6 spokes on their gears. The reason is that the former had a fourfold division of the cosmos and time while the latter were based on a 12 tribe system.

Earth (coal), Air, Fire and water the four elements common to many cultures will produce steam, so not only is an 'aboriginal' steampunk possible but there is a indigenous knowledge of the means to do so to explain it. I wrote a draft of a short story set in Egypt where a marriage of the sun (Ra) and the Nile was used to fuel an indigenous steampunk age ,solar steampunk if you will, (taking water from the Nile by a mass of solar shadoufs to irrigate the desert resulted in major problems in Cairo).
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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2014, 03:54:01 pm »

Four great pet ideas for native steampunker:
Dingos:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz9AY-DavNQ


Coyotes:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcQDZWHrGTU


Rez Dogs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGq0HJeQ0t0


Wolfs:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dkcoQm47M


And for cat peoples:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1tih6dsjCg

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvpGAmPJO74
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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2014, 12:07:11 am »

Native Americans Inventions:
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/06/29/10-native-inventions-and-innovations-changed-world-155541
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/10/07/wrenches-wetsuits-and-first-duck-dynasty-5-more-game-changing-native-inventions-157220
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« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2014, 02:22:30 am »

Ok, check this out:  my whole life I was told that I had ancestors in the Eastern Branch of the Ani yun wiya (Cherokee) Nation.  I have photographs of my ancestors, and they're as American Indian as you can get.  However, after I had genetic testing done, it was found that genetically I have 0 First Nations blood...my Paternal Grandmother was either adopted on-the-sly, a foundling whose origins were kept secret, or of a different father than the rest of my Great Aunts.  That makes sense LOOKING at them...she's pretty much a blue-eyed toe-head and thus stands out, for her dusky, raven-haired 'sisters' are all obviously half-blood.
However, most of the Cherokee Nation doesn't have a blood-percentage-requirement for Tribal Membership (certain Clans of the Cherokee Nation do, but most don't) but instead require an applying individual to find an ancestor on one of a number of certain historical documents, census lists, court disputes, etc.
I DO have an ancestor on one of the tribal census lists, and for some time have been working on establishing the verifiable documented 'truths' to become a tribal member...because though apparently I'm 0% genetically Native, I AM to some degree Culturally Native...

"Though I wear a shirt and tie, I'm still part Redman deep inside..."  ...sorta. In a roundabout way.

Anyway, color the whole situation confused. >shrugs<
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 07:06:52 pm by Vagabond GentleMan » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2014, 03:33:26 am »


~ ~ ~
Some examples of Mexican Native

President Benito Juarez (several terms 1858-1872): (Zapotec Native, South Western Mexico, State of Oaxaca)









The official family explanation on my Dad's side of the family is that we are part Choctaw (but we don't have lot numbers or anything). However, intriguingly enough, the gentleman above (Presidente Juarez) could be my Dad, if his hair were white and sparse and the cheekbones were slightly more celtic. Everything else is eerily almost identical, or as near as I can determine, given that it's (apparently) a black and white photograph.

On my mother's side, a rather famous Comanche war chief (cousin, not direct antecedent)'s portrait looks similar to the woman in your post.The Comanche were known to take Spanish and Mexican captives and adopt them. What I am getting at is that it might not always be as simple as having separate tribes and families, and separate stories thereof, as others' posts here seem to indicate.




Odd how things tumble out unexpectedly. We (my parents and I) were discussing family history the other evening, and it fell out that my maternal grandfather was born and raised in Oklahoma, in a community right on the edge of the Comanche reservation. It further fell out (though extremely vaguely) that said grand father might in fact have been a grandson/great grandson of the war chief's brother (what was actually said was that he was the son of a man who had the same name as the war chief's brother, and that he was half Comanche, the product of a union of an 1830s Chief with a white captive (!)), which means or appears to mean that whereas I had been convinced that we were related only by marriage, it now appears we are in fact blood relatives with the war chief, but descended from the original union of a certain white captive girl and a certain previous chief down through the war chief's brother, rather than a direct descendant of the war chief.

This all just falls out during a short conversation in late evening in the living room, several years after having wrestled and wrangled with all kinds of genealogical records to find out same (and not being able to find it), only to have it just fall out of Mom's and Dad's hats  so to speak, just because they happened to just sit and think hard for a few minutes in passing reminiscence! *heavy sigh, eyeroll and headshake*

You'd think that somebody, somewhere, would write all this stuff down ( a lot of it is written down, a huge chunk of it by my Mom and Dad, but apparently not all or in fact not some of the most important bits. It could be, though, that my priorities being slightly different from theirs, are possibly making certain things seem to be more important than they actually are. I suppose.)...
------------

VG, maybe your genetic situation's apparent (?) ambiguity or dearth of specific info is affected by similar factors. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 03:48:10 am by MWBailey » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2014, 07:06:27 pm »

Something similar, I'm sure...worse, likely, as the more my father and I have dug into that side of the family's genealogy the more we find that they have been secret-keeping, misinformation-spreading, sometimes out-and-out lying scoundrels...which granted, makes things intriguing (what were they all doing that was so 'wrong' that they felt the need to be SO deceptive?), but makes a lot of potential answers as ephemeral as the wind.
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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2014, 04:01:59 am »

The Longhouse is open to everyone.  In the end, all people are Native to this planet.  One day we will all be classified as Terran Natives...

Odd how things tumble out unexpectedly. We (my parents and I) were discussing family history the other evening, and it fell out that my maternal grandfather was born and raised in Oklahoma, in a community right on the edge of the Comanche reservation. It further fell out (though extremely vaguely) that said grand father might in fact have been a grandson/great grandson of the war chief's brother (what was actually said was that he was the son of a man who had the same name as the war chief's brother, and that he was half Comanche, the product of a union of an 1830s Chief with a white captive (!)), which means or appears to mean that whereas I had been convinced that we were related only by marriage, it now appears we are in fact blood relatives with the war chief, but descended from the original union of a certain white captive girl and a certain previous chief down through the war chief's brother, rather than a direct descendant of the war chief.

*snip*

In any case you are happily a member of this club, circumstances notwithstanding.

Something similar, I'm sure...worse, likely, as the more my father and I have dug into that side of the family's genealogy the more we find that they have been secret-keeping, misinformation-spreading, sometimes out-and-out lying scoundrels...which granted, makes things intriguing (what were they all doing that was so 'wrong' that they felt the need to be SO deceptive?), but makes a lot of potential answers as ephemeral as the wind.

And when you do find the answers it makes it than much more interesting.  Found a couple of "shot gun weddings" on my Italian family side - you can tell because of the marriage certificate dates compared to the birth certificate days.  Great gossip ensues  Cheesy
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 07:01:42 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2014, 07:28:48 am »

The Longhouse is open to everyone.  In the end, all people are Native to this planet.  One day we will all be classified as Terran Natives...

Odd how things tumble out unexpectedly. We (my parents and I) were discussing family history the other evening, and it fell out that my maternal grandfather was born and raised in Oklahoma, in a community right on the edge of the Comanche reservation. It further fell out (though extremely vaguely) that said grand father might in fact have been a grandson/great grandson of the war chief's brother (what was actually said was that he was the son of a man who had the same name as the war chief's brother, and that he was half Comanche, the product of a union of an 1830s Chief with a white captive (!)), which means or appears to mean that whereas I had been convinced that we were related only by marriage, it now appears we are in fact blood relatives with the war chief, but descended from the original union of a certain white captive girl and a certain previous chief down through the war chief's brother, rather than a direct descendant of the war chief.

*snip*

In any case you are happily a member of this club, circumstances notwithstanding.

Something similar, I'm sure...worse, likely, as the more my father and I have dug into that side of the family's genealogy the more we find that they have been secret-keeping, misinformation-spreading, sometimes out-and-out lying scoundrels...which granted, makes things intriguing (what were they all doing that was so 'wrong' that they felt the need to be SO deceptive?), but makes a lot of potential answers as ephemeral as the wind.

And when you do find the answers it makes it than much more interesting.  Found a couple of "shot gun weddings" on my Italian family side - you can tell because of the marriage certificate dates compared to the birth certificate days.  Great gossip ensues  Cheesy

 I have uncovered a pattern of "late"  or "change of life" babies in my very straitlaced and secretive family tree. 

yes things were different then  - but one does have to question the  sudden births  after a long gap to   women in  their  late 40s with a  60s husband  and several adult  and teenage children.  Is it genetic?  Will I have to worry about  a future " stay with relatives in the country side" and "bringing home a little visitor " of my own ?
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