Lantern City: Attention Steampunk Creators

[Maets]

This looks very interesting.  
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,36829.0.html

Here is a chance for all you creative/maker types to get a wider audience for your work.  Seems like a good idea to me.

www.lanterncitytv.com

[Dharmagraphics]

Thanks so much for posting this . Sounds awesome....

[Maets]

Just a reminder to all you makers, builders, creators, to take a look at and join www.lanterncitytv.com

[J. Wilhelm]

Ladies and Gentlemen just make sure you read and understand the rules for entry into the contest very carefully before entry into the contest...  Note you are not entitled to feedback from the judges and if I understand correctly. you absolutely waive your right to complain about a creation that may be exploited in the show, no matter how it came into being and how identical it may be to your creation (!)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Source: http://lanterncitytv.com/forum/register.php

[dpgoldberg]

Okay, here's the thing... I work as a professional prop and model designer/builder for the television and movie industry in Los Angeles. The idea that a production company would try to get free designs and content for their show in return for only a "Special Thanks" credit is personally offensive to me. (BTW, have you seen how fast the Special Thanks credits roll by?) I understand that some of you may think this is a great opportunity to get exposure for your work but it's really not. It's just a chance to have your creative skills taken advantage of. A typical original prop design would normally cost many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to develop. By holding this contest the production can fore go having to pay an art director or concept artist (I wonder how the Art Directors' union is going to feel about this?). Are they doing the same for the writers? If you read the fine print you'll find no mention either that you as a contributor retain any rights to the design once if it is used. I doesn't specifically say the production company retains the rights but this is a grey area that everyone should also be aware of. there's always a big ol' copyright notice at the end of any show and that could be construed to cover any and all content contained within. I think I'm going to steer clear of this one.

[J. Wilhelm]

Okay, here's the thing... I work as a professional prop and model designer/builder for the television and movie industry in Los Angeles. The idea that a production company would try to get free designs and content for their show in return for only a "Special Thanks" credit is personally offensive to me. (BTW, have you seen how fast the Special Thanks credits roll by?) I understand that some of you may think this is a great opportunity to get exposure for your work but it's really not. It's just a chance to have your creative skills taken advantage of. A typical original prop design would normally cost many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to develop. By holding this contest the production can fore go having to pay an art director or concept artist (I wonder how the Art Directors' union is going to feel about this?). Are they doing the same for the writers? If you read the fine print you'll find no mention either that you as a contributor retain any rights to the design once if it is used. I doesn't specifically say the production company retains the rights but this is a grey area that everyone should also be aware of. there's always a big ol' copyright notice at the end of any show and that could be construed to cover any and all content contained within. I think I'm going to steer clear of this one.

With regard to preserving your copyrights, I believe the terms for contest entry are self explanatory.  You specifically agree to give up any claims that may arise from someone else producing and exploting a creation no matter how similar it is to your creation.

While I did not make as caustic a statement,  and I don't necessarily take offense by the contract they pose, I essentially agree with the caveats you point out, and that is why I can't participate with about 95% of what I make.  This, my art, is how I make my living.   I was faced with a similar situation when dealing with Sony America during the Mercury laptop commission, but  I stood my ground and won the argument.  The project was made anyway, and I retain all mydesign and copy rights and the right to make and sell as many as I want.

I would love to participate in Lantern City - and I really mean that!! But while I know that my staunch defiance will hurt my visibility, I can't risk to have my designs copied and resold potentially as mass produced merchandise related to the TV series when I retain no rights whatsoever by way of the agreement I sign simply by registering in the blog.  I wish the producers of the program would pay attention to the barriers to participation that are created by the contract.  Many of us will be held back from participation, I'm afraid.

The solution if you want to participate without risk is of course to create a "one-off" (unique) piece which will be different in style to everything else you tend to make, registered under your private name (not a company, studio or such), and knowing that it may be copied at some point.

[WillRockwell]

The fine print in the Lantern City "contract" is confined to a small box and must be scrolled through to read it. Having just read it, after signing it several days ago, I am disturbed by the apparent loss of control over my designs that I have unwittingly signed away. Here are some of the highlights of the fine print:




DETAILED TERMS AND CONDITIONS

 In no event shall I have the right to terminate or revoke the terms and conditions of this letter after it is submitted to you.

I acknowledge that no fiduciary, partnership, joint venture, or confidential relationship now or hereafter exists between you and me, whatsoever.

I acknowledge that I shall not be entitled to any compensation with respect to your exploitation of such Primary Material or any portion thereof (no matter how similar or identical it is to the Material), whatsoever, and I will not commence any action to restrain, interfere, or enjoin the development, production, distribution, or exploitation of the Primary Material (or any rights therein or thereto) by you or by any third party, whatsoever; I hereby waive any and all right I have to seek or obtain injunctive or other equitable relief with respect to the Material and/or the Primary Material, and I release you from any and all claims now or hereafter known with respect thereto. I fully understand that this submission is part of a design contest for inclusion in an episode of Bruce Boxleitner's Lantern City and that no compensation will be offered.

I acknowledge, agree, and confirm a that I shall indemnify you and hold you harmless from all claims, liabilities, and expenses, including reasonable attorney's fees, arising out of or in connection with the breach or alleged breach of any of my representations, warranties, agreements, or other provisions herein. I acknowledge, agree, and confirm that the terms and conditions of this letter shall be binding on me, my agents, heirs, successors, licensees, and assigns (and any other person or entity entitled to claim rights by or through me), and that the provisions of this letter shall inure to the benefit of your successors, assigns, licensees, and distributors.

By entering this contest, you conclusively are deemed to have agreed to be bound by these rules and terms and conditions as well as by any rules specific to such contest. This is an irrevocable condition of entry.

[Maets]

Looks like I need to learn to read the small print.

The images submitted are for selecting only.  They will require the piece to actually use it in the show. Does it say anywhere that you have to send them the piece?  What happens if you never send them a piece?

[WillRockwell]

Looks like I need to learn to read the small print.

The images submitted are for selecting only.  They will require the piece to actually use it in the show. Does it say anywhere that you have to send them the piece?  What happens if you never send them a piece?

They claim the right to duplicate the piece, which they could do from a photograph. I posted the position that Will Rockwell is a fictitious person, unable to enter into a binding contract.

[Maets]

I signed up as Maets (not my name).  I don't remember them even asking for a real name. 

I am not concerned about anyone duplicating from a picture.  If I was I won't spend so much time posting pictures of my work all over the web.

[WillRockwell]

I signed up as Maets (not my name).  I don't remember them even asking for a real name. 

I am not concerned about anyone duplicating from a picture.  If I was I won't spend so much time posting pictures of my work all over the web.

Well, they claim the right to mass produce and manufacture without compensation. This is pure piracy, and the fact they put that into a forum registration convinces me Lantern City can't be trusted.

[Maets]

Should we all be pulling down the pictures that we have submitted?  Hopefully your comments on the site will bring forth some additional information.

[Aleister Crow]

How do they even know if a submission was actually made by the person who submitted it? And how can they claim any kind of rights without the artist's real name and legal signature?

Clauses like that are just asking to be sued.

[WillRockwell]

Should we all be pulling down the pictures that we have submitted?  Hopefully your comments on the site will bring forth some additional information.

The fine print states there is no way out of the contract, pulling the pictures wouldn't help. If they like your work they've already copied the images. SkinsNHydz just posted his work there yesterday, I hope Ian is reading this

[J. Wilhelm]

So now you see gentlemen.  I tried to point it out as soon as I could but Mr. Maets and Mr. Rockwell, you guys and a handful of others were registered already by the time I read the contract.

I almost registered, but I didn't like what I read (no I didn't sign up at all; I can't do it like that).

I know sometimes I appear as a rambling paranoid twit with all my copyright notices plastered all over my pictures and such, but having a lawyer for a mother (no matter how pesky she is - not too bad actually- she is a "hippie mom" from the 60's   ) has really helped me this last year.

EDIT:

Will, I'm not going to assume that they will automatically take the work and mass produce it.  All things being equal the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.  I think the purpose was to avoid legal conflict between contestants  and/or the studio, in cases when one creator's work may be nearly identical to the work of another creator.

How do they even know if a submission was actually made by the person who submitted it? And how can they claim any kind of rights without the artist's real name and legal signature?

Clauses like that are just asking to be sued.

That is a sticky question.  In my case, last year, it was a written Intellectual Property Transfer Contract that required my physical signature.  I refused to sign the contract and negotiated accordingly by counter-offering a unique product that would be so different it could not be confused with the rest of my business - an exclusive commission if you will.  In the end they gave way and agreed the contract was unnecessary, so I kept all rights and everything went to plan even if I roughed up a few feathers at the start of the project.

My suggestion to the producers is to not use those types of contracts at all.  The contestants should hold the contest managers and associates free of liability arising from the contest itself, but without giving away their own copyrights to the outside world or to the event organizers.

If you're interested in buying intellectual property rights you need to be very explicit about it as in "black and white" explicit.  Even so I would never sell my property rights at any price.  Why? You don't have to!  If they want your art they can come, and buy like every one else!!!

[Capt James Salt]

Seems to me a bad way for an entertainment production company to create a show.  You would think they would have an art director selecting pieces and contacting the artist.  Making arrangements with the creator to use the art piece in the show.  Arrangements which include payments and copyright. 

I think they could get a lot of stuff with very little expense.  I think most steampunkers would give up copyright for a small fee and their name in the credits.  And those artists that want to keep their copyrights could negotiate accordingly.

I hope the Lantern City lawyers don’t end up ruining the artistic value of the show.

[J. Wilhelm]

I hope the Lantern City lawyers don’t end up ruining the artistic value of the show.

Precisely.  I won't assume ill intent, but this is not the way.

[Maets]

The creators of Lantern City have been responding to our concerns.  I think this was due more to a hasty site creation than trying to take advantage of the makers.

[WillRockwell]

The creators of Lantern City have been responding to our concerns.  I think this was due more to a hasty site creation than trying to take advantage of the makers.

Agreed, I think a hotshot lawyer got out ahead of their intentions

http://lanterncitytv.com/forum/showthread.php/172-Troubled-by-this-contest

[Narsil]

This is not an uncommon problem with art and design competitions and juried exhibitions.

There seems to be a widespread belief that artists should be quite happy to work for free simply for the chance of gaining approval from a panel of self appointed judges.

It may be that the intent here is to deal fairly with contributors and it's just a badly worded document but it certainly comes across as a bit sneaky and whatever the intent it is a very one sided agreement.

Submitting any kind of work on the basis of 'I will give this to you and you will own it, if you like it you might pay me for it if you feel like it...'

is not, in my book a particularly good idea.

[J. Wilhelm]

Still plain risky for me.  They need to change conditions and publish them outside of their blog.

But think about their intentions for a minute.  Hot shot lawyer or not.

The TV studio where I presented my laptop technically purchased the project.  During the negotiations they justified their initial position by stating that 100% of the intellectual rights (concepts, artwork, technology, etc.) belonged to Sony, because THEY were under contract with Sony and THEY had to transfer all intellectual property under contract.  ANYONE who had any invention or creation featured in the Sony Blog would have to transfer 100% of their intellectual rights to the buyer and by consequence to Sony, they argued.

If this is common practice among TV studios, then TV studios are fantastic technology stealing setups!  I argued that I was presenting art not technology, and that I plain refused to transfer my intellectual property even the concepts behind the art.  I counter-offered a "one-off" not tied to anyone but myself (no "Victorian Steam") and that was basically so different it didn't look like anything they had seen on my shop.  Something I would not care if I never built again.  But that is not what they wanted.

48 hours (actually a few days) after I stood my ground the contract magically "vanished."  It was not needed after all, they said.  Am I supposed to believe that anyone walking into a TV studio to demonstrate a piece of technology automatically loses all their intellectual rights?

Hot shot lawyers? Or just occasional fishing to see if they catch something?  Seller beware!

[Hez]

A gentlemen's agreement only works if both parties are gentlemen. 

[Uncle Arthur]

A gentlemen's agreement only works if both parties are gentlemen. 

And isn't legally worth the paper it's printed on.

[Narsil]

Actually any agreement whether written of verbal is just as legally valid as any other. There is no special process which makes a contract 'official' or legal. 

The benefit of a written contract is that it provides evidence of the terms of the agreement of which all parties have a copy, conversely the problem with a purely verbal agreement is that its hard to prove exactly what was agreed.

There are also certain legal rights which apply to all transactions, particularly where goods or services are being sold to a private consumer and contracts of employment and no contract can override these. For example all consumer goods must be fit for purpose and stating things like 'no refunds' or limiting warranties are meaningless. Under European law at least,  a product should work for a reasonable amount of time and the seller doesn't have the legal authority to decide how long 'reasonable' is.

All contracts are subordinate to the law and they can't be used to waive or abdicate statutory rights or responsibilities unless the law in question specifically allows for this.

[J. Wilhelm]

Yes but "subordinate to state law" is the key phrase here.  You may have uniform consumer protection in the EU regarding the "reasonable time" a product has to last.  But in other countries you will have different laws.  In some countries like the USA, individual provinces have more of a say on this.  Note carefully that the contract issued by the producers of Lantern City direct the signers to waive a particular statute under California law.  The laws will vary from state to state and presumably any lawsuit would have to be filed and fought in the State of California, whose laws no doubt have many statutes related to the entertainment industry amassed over the 20th. C. (Hollywood)