sodden beer cans

[trampledbygeese]

Okay, slightly misleading title, but I got your attention.

What I would like to know is what type of solder (and what method) is best for soldering beer cans together?  The cans are aluminium and I was going to attach the solder on the outside of the can so I don't have to deal with the plastic lining.  But even still, I think I have to sand it first, right?

It's just a prototype for a reproduction of a 19th C bee smoker.  If it works, I'll buy some sheet metal and make a proper one.  But I really don't want to waste my money on metal if I have all these cans just laying around.

Also, how much does aluminium conduct heat compared to other affordable metals?  What light weight metal would be the 19th C equivalent?

[Uncle Arthur]

Modern beer cans are awfully thin stock. Ungalvanized sheet steel would be far easier to deal with and not horribly expensive. Galvanized metal runs the danger of zinc fumes. A few years back a well loved member of the blacksmithing community was killed by inhaling  zinc fumes. Granted , he was a smoker and had emphysema . Still it was the fumes that did him in.

[trampledbygeese]

That's very good to know.  So, don't solder beer cans.  Since it's a prototype I can use some pop rivets.

This means that beer cans would not be something good to light a fire in as it would also give off fumes?  Assume like I've never done this before.

Is sheet steel easy to bend to shape?  Also, how well does it conduct heat?

That reminds me, I need to get making a fume mask.  I do all my potentially dodgy work outside from working with glue to cutting cedar (carcinogenic) but that limits my crafting to the summer months.  Problem is, I'm allergic to the rubber/plastic they use to make the body of shop masks... wonder if there is a steampunk alternative, but that's something for another thread.

[Rooster]

Why not use glue/epoxy if it is just a prototype? Should hold long enough to test if the design is viable.

As for thermal conductivity, in terms of cost Aluminium is pretty much the best out there right now. Copper is much better but significantly more expensive at the moment, brass is worse and steel is much worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities

[Lachlan_MacAuslander]

Given that, back in the days before I learned about recycling and conservation, I used to melt down aluminum cans in campfires, I'd say that lighting a fire inside of an aluminum can construction could well be a prelude to catastrophic failure... Even if the temperature stays below the 660 degrees Celcius melting point, the cans are so thin they'd likely deform under heat stress.

[Narsil]

Okay, slightly misleading title, but I got your attention.

What I would like to know is what type of solder (and what method) is best for soldering beer cans together?  The cans are aluminium and I was going to attach the solder on the outside of the can so I don't have to deal with the plastic lining.  But even still, I think I have to sand it first, right?

It's just a prototype for a reproduction of a 19th C bee smoker.  If it works, I'll buy some sheet metal and make a proper one.  But I really don't want to waste my money on metal if I have all these cans just laying around.

Also, how much does aluminium conduct heat compared to other affordable metals?  What light weight metal would be the 19th C equivalent?

You can solder aluminium but it is not an easy task, doubly so on something as thin as a beer can. Put it this way someone who can boast that they can solder/braze/weld alu beer cans together is an excellent welder.

Steel really isn't all that expensive, if you;re working with mild steel then the cost of the materials is going to be a fairly small percentage of the total cost of the job in terms of labour, tools and consumables. IF you can find free or cheap sources of metal then great but there is very little point in compromising a job by using inferior or unsuitable  materials.

Thin gauge sheet steel (say 22g and thinner) is relatively easy to work without specialist equipment, if you just want cylinders or sections of cylinders then its generally easiest to start with tube, which is easy to get hold of in a variety of sizes. The best advice is to find your local steel stockholder, they often don't have websites so you might have to check a local trade directory, most are happy to deal with relatively small orders.

Regarding masks, most masks with separate filters are now made from silicone (rather than natural rubber) which is pretty non allergenic but of you do have a problem with it then just use a suitable disposable one which don't have any plastic parts in contact with your face at all. There are various different grades available for different applications. If your dealing with anything especially nasty or for long periods than an air fed face shield is a good alternative.

Aluminium is a very good conductor of both heat and electricity, copper, brass of bronze would be the closest 19th C equivalents depending on the intended use. Mild steel is a moderate conductor of heat, stainless steel is a relatively poor conductor.

There are lots of options for joining sheet metals of all types including welding, soldering, brazing, bolts, rivets and adhesives all of which haev their place for depending on the intended use.

[Uncle Arthur]

It just came to mind that while at the antiques store Wed. I was looking over an old smoker. It was assembled with crimped joints.  Not super easy without special tools but I have done it with decent results.

[trampledbygeese]

Why not use glue/epoxy if it is just a prototype? Should hold long enough to test if the design is viable.

As for thermal conductivity, in terms of cost Aluminium is pretty much the best out there right now. Copper is much better but significantly more expensive at the moment, brass is worse and steel is much worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities

Thing is, I'm lighting a fire in it (to make the smoke) so I'm not sure what sort of glue or epoxy would be safe to use.

I think I'll just use some pop-rivets to hold it together and see if I can get the prototype functioning that way.

[trampledbygeese]

Given that, back in the days before I learned about recycling and conservation, I used to melt down aluminum cans in campfires, I'd say that lighting a fire inside of an aluminum can construction could well be a prelude to catastrophic failure... Even if the temperature stays below the 660 degrees Celcius melting point, the cans are so thin they'd likely deform under heat stress.

Very good to know.  It is a low temperature fire, but given how thin these can are... not sure it's going to be a good idea using them.

[greensteam]

As Narsil says: aluminium is VERY difficult. It can be welded but I dont think soldering is possible.

The thing about aluminium is that it has a higher melting point than iron/steel so it is virtually impossible for a soldering iron to get it to heat up enough for solder to stick. And then there is another problem: aluminium oxidises really really easily especially when you heat it up and aluminium oxide has an even higher melting point.

Welding is possible by creating a gas shield around the area where the welding is happening so that no oxygen gets to the aluminium: this is called either MIG or TIG, with the IG standing for Inert Gas.

On the other hand soldering steel beer cans is a doddle but you do need to sand down the area to get to the naked steel first or else the solder wont stick.

[Mister P]

Not all beer (or soft drink) cans are aluminium - Grab youself a small magnet and see which ones it sticks to.

[Steamworkshop]

Aluminum cans can easily and safely be welded with just a propane torch.

Look up a product called Alumiweld. There are similar produsts available and they all seem to be virtualy the same. It's basicaly an aluminum compound that melts at a lower temp than alumunum.

I bought a few sticks on eBay and they work very well. I was able to punch a large hole in a can and repair it. I was also able to weld two cans together. I work part time at a mechanics shop and bought them to repair thin walled AC components that would otherwise have to be repalced at a high cost.

There are videos all over youtube of people using it. It's pretty cheap and doesn't require any special equipment or even flux. Just a cheap propane torch like they sell at the hardware store.

These aren't my videos but they show how the stuff works.

Aluminum Soda Can Weld

HTS-2000 Or Durafix Welding From Ebay.ca

[Mr. Boltneck]

Another thing to bear in mind is that not all coated steel is galvanized. Food containers, and a range of commercial sheet-metal stocks, are commonly tin-plated, since it produces a shiny and paintable corrosion-resistant surface, and is non-toxic under most conditions.
It also solders quite well, although melting any sort of solder requires a large heat source. Large, please notice, rather than hot; it's the amount of energy available as heat at the fusing temperature of the solder that's required. Lots of people, including people who have, to my certain knowledge, taken university-level physics and thermodynamics engineering classes, make this mistake. A small, very hot flame may well burn a hole through thin tinplate before the seam wets properly, and an electronics-grade tool will never provide enough heat.
If you are going to do a lot of this, a set of old-fashioned soldering coppers, which are heated over a gas flame of your choice, may be a handy purchase. Or you could build them, as they are just pieces of copper, a centimeter or more in diameter and five or so long, tapered or ground to a chisel point at one end and drilled and tapped onto a steel rod with a wooden handle at the other. The copper provides a good thermal conductor and mass, and the steel rod keeps it from burning through the handle, as it is a poor heat conductor. I remember being taught to use them in my teens, in the school metal shop.

[Uncle Arthur]

Copper soldering irons are fairly inexpensive in antiques shops in this area. There is little collector's value in them . Just melt value for the copper. Your area may be different .

[Narsil]

The aluminium brazing rods mentioned above seem ok although they aren't strictly a welding method and they are pretty expensive in the long run compared to other methods. eg a couple of rods might be £10 whereas doing the same join with a TIG setup might cost a few pence, albeit with much higher initial equipment costs. The other thing is that the guy in the video is clearly an expert, don't expect to do a perfect fill  on a large diameter hole straight out of the box unless you know exactly what you are doing.

[Bolt Face]

You could use tin cans (like what you would get green beans, etc in)"welded" together with JB Weld for the prototype.  I use tin cans for little "hobo stoves" while camping sometimes.  They are study enough for fires lit inside multiple times. JB Weld comes in various formulas depending on usage.

[Uncle Arthur]

Number ten cans are super for hobo stoves and things of that nature! Nice and large.

[trampledbygeese]

Wow, I never imagined there could be so much information about metalwork.  I should have guessed.  The more I learn about it, the more I love it.  Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.

Today is Saturday, so I'm off to garage sales to see what I can scavenge.  If I can't find anything suitable, then I'll wonder over to the metal warehouse (yes, I have one only 5 min away from my house, I'm a lucky girl) and see if they have anything affordable.  Failing that, I'll start eating beans. 

By the way, is any one continent more likely to use the metal I need to make food cans?  I often buy foods that are imported from Europe, Asia, Middle East and North Africa.  Or should I stick with good old North American cans?

Once I got some supplies together, I'll start a new thread specifically about making a bee smoker.  I actually have two smokers I plan to make, one hand held and one floor model.  Of course, once I have it functioning, then I hope to decorate it (with brass perhaps).  I'll be seeking inspiration for that too. 

Thanks again.  You guys are awesome!

[von Corax]

By the way, is any one continent more likely to use the metal I need to make food cans?  I often buy foods that are imported from Europe, Asia, Middle East and North Africa.  Or should I stick with good old North American cans?

All the food cans in my cupboard (currently from Canada, USA, Mexico and Thailand) are steel; I don't know whether that's because it's the universal standard or if there are import regs involved, but either way the result is the same. Beer & pop cans can be either steel or aluminum; you can usually tell by how fragile the can feels, but the best way is to use a magnet.

Hope that's of use.