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Jedediah Solomon
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« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2012, 03:52:25 pm » |
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Indeed, but how to refer to a person unknown?
One cannot assume gender from profession, status, or even name sometimes.
It is still considered good manners to extend one's right hand and say something like "Hello, My name is Jedediah, and I am glad you came tonight, and you are....?" or "Thank you for attending to my injuries, Dr. ...." thus allowing them to fill in the rest of the sentence with something like " Pat. I am Hank's friend from College." or "Dr. Peterson. Just try not to fight Air Kraken unarmed anymore, Mr. Solomon" and although I purposely left no sense of Gender in the answer, at least you could continue a conversation with Pat or Dr. Peterson without offending. It is still acceptable to refer to a person with a full mustache as Mr. unless other clues are given to indicate that the person in question is either transitioning away from the masculine (and would of course understand the slight) or is a straight female in a male role-playing costume.
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Adventure awaits
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Professor J. Cogsworthy
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« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2012, 04:47:42 pm » |
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Indeed, but how to refer to a person unknown?
One cannot assume gender from profession, status, or even name sometimes.
Don't use pronouns until they give you enough information to apply one to them. English is flexible enough for that.
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No, no no, a thousand times no. Its pronounced - lah-BOHR-ah-tor-ee
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Mad Maudlin
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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2012, 06:28:42 pm » |
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"Thon" is French for "tuna". Why don't we use "ze"? I was talking to the Professor after class and ze told me about a laboratory accident in zir youth which prevented zir from enjoying candied kiwifruit...
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To Hell with ponies, I want an Airship! "...If I ever see anyone in a ‘sexy clockwork automaton’ costume they picked up off a supermarket shelf I’m going to beat them to death with their plastic cog mini-skirt..." -Dylan Fox in issue 7 of <i>SteamPunk</i> magazine
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Jedediah Solomon
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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2012, 08:22:06 pm » |
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Then again, the Society of Friends (Quakers) would tend to refer to others by their full names or at least as much of the full name as they were given. An example would be (using my moniker to avoid further offending androgynous Pat) "Glad to meet you, Jedediah Solomon" "I will invite Jedediah Solomon to my graduation" or "Would you care for more tea, Jedediah Solomon?" I would reply by saying something like "Why certainly, Able Hochmut, with a bit of hunny. I appreciate you and Grace Hochmut extending the invitation" We may view that as awkward by today's world of shortcuts, nicknames and over-familiarity, but there is no room for any social slight. Now, if there were someone in the circle of friends that evening named Hosea Hochmut, their son (Born male, and thus identified that way with a male name) and Hosea chose to go either transgender, crossdresser, gender neutral or whatever they use these days, Hosea Hochmut is still named Hosea Hochmut until Hosea Hochmut legally changes Hosea Hochmut's name to ......Nil Hochmut or Sylvia Hochmut or Moon Unit Hochmut, it would then be "How are you today, Moon Unit Hochmut?" Simple? I think so. Thus, if you meet someone and that person is introduced as Chris Smith , and there is nothing to indicate an obvious gender, it is not rude to say "Glad to meet you, Chris Smith. May I call you Chris?" As Prof. Cogsworthy stated Don't use pronouns until they give you enough information to apply one to them. English is flexible enough for that.
,lWhy do some get bent out of shape trying to pin a gender on others?
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« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 01:12:20 am by Jedediah Solomon »
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Jedediah Solomon
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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2012, 08:25:11 pm » |
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I am sorry, I tend to ramble on. I think that is someone WANTS to self-identify a specific way , such as a boy wants to be identified as a girl, they should make that choice obvious, and if one wishes to remain gender-neutral and someone slips up because they look a little masculine, then really, they should not be quick to take offense. I say let the world know I am a man and hope I will never need a physical examination to prove it.
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 12:39:29 am by Jedediah Solomon »
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Lucius Baxter
Gunner

 England
Yeah, I've been inside a firebox... what of it?
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« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2012, 11:08:49 am » |
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Props for pointing out the other big gap in the Common English lexicon: the Lack of plural Second Person... You could always use 'ye'*, as in 'O! Come all ye faithful'. This has roots in the Old English gé (pronounced pretty much the same, though), but seems to have fallen into disuse in modern times. *Note: not to be confused with 'ye' as in 'ye olde tea shoppe', which is a bastardisation of OE þe. Due to the lack of the 'þ' in early printing fonts, 'y' was substituted in; thus 'the' became 'ye'.  Quite true that....
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Intrepid Vampire Slayer and Inter-Dimensional man of Mystery
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Maria
Swab
 United States
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« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2012, 04:13:23 am » |
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"They"/"them" works quite well for my genderqueer friends or those who enjoy remaining gender-neutral  Or, whichever pronoun they choose to identify as.
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Amelia Harper
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« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2012, 08:58:35 pm » |
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Mary Gentle tackles this problem in Golden Witchbreed. Her alien race are neuter from birth until puberty, at which time they become either male or female - so males and females are raised identically, because nobody knows which sex they'll be until it happens. She uses the pronouns ke and ker when talking about them, which worked very well in the context of the book.
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Raven's Heirs and Like Father, Like Daughter, by Lesley Arrowsmith, are now published on Smashwords (YA Fantasy)
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Uncle Arthur
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« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2012, 09:29:53 pm » |
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So I guess the Southern American Y'all and it's plural, All Y'all is right out!
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If at first you don't succeed , CHEAT!
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Sir Nathaniel Wolf
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« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2012, 04:19:16 pm » |
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Mary Gentle tackles this problem in Golden Witchbreed. Her alien race are neuter from birth until puberty, at which time they become either male or female - so males and females are raised identically, because nobody knows which sex they'll be until it happens. She uses the pronouns ke and ker when talking about them, which worked very well in the context of the book.
Ah, but as has been previously discussed, "ke" and "ker", just like "ze" and "zir", "thon", "ou", and (most commonly among the furry community) "shi" and "hir", is this distinct problem - they lack convention, they are not commonly used (thus why there's so many variation on the same theme) and thus remain largely unknown and unused, causing confusion among the majority of people who only know "he" and "she".
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Steam (love of the romantic view of Victorian-era industrialization) - Punk (I don't really give a damn what you think of my goggles and top hat).
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Lord Wraste
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« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2012, 03:46:08 am » |
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Then again, the Society of Friends (Quakers) would tend to refer to others by their full names or at least as much of the full name as they were given. An example would be (using my moniker to avoid further offending androgynous Pat) "Gled to meet you, Jedediah Solomon" "I will invite Jedediah Solomon to my graduation" or Would you care for more tea, "Jedediah Solomon?" I would reply by saying something like "Why certainly, Able Hochmut, with a bit of hunny. I appreciate you and Grace Hochmut extending the invitation" We may view that as awkward by today's world of shortcuts, nicknames and over-familiarity, but there is no room for any social slight. Now, if there were someone in the circle of friends that evening named Hosea Hochmut, their son (Born male, and thus identified that way with a male name) and Hosea chose to ge either transgender, crossdresser, gender neutral or whatever they use these days, Hosea Hochmut is still named Hosea Hochmut until Hosea Hochmut legally changes Hosea Hochmut's name to ......Nil Hochmut or Sylvia Hochmut or Moon Unit Hochmut, it would then be "How are you today, Moon Unit Hochmut?" Simple? I think so. Thus, if you meet someone and that person is introduced as Chris Smith , and there is nothing to indicate an obvious gender, it is not rude to say "Glad to meet you, Chris Smith. May I call you Chris?" As Prof. Cogsworthy stated
I'm so glad I'm not drinking anything!!!  I realize I'm wandering off topic, but I'm betting Frank is sorry he didn't name his baby girl "Moon Unit Hachmut Zappa". Oh damn... I'm still laughing! :'D
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