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Author Topic: Victorian food brands still extant  (Read 189685 times)
Will Howard
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« Reply #1300 on: March 21, 2018, 04:59:08 pm »



I wouldn't be surprised to find that America's great love affair with Emmental style cheese (known here simply as "Swiss Cheese") is in great part due to Roth, given how early they started importing cheese into the United States - basically the start of the Civil War Era.

I KNEW IT!!!  Our "Civil War was fought over CHEESE!







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« Reply #1301 on: March 21, 2018, 06:40:42 pm »

I'm suspicious of anything labeled "processed cheese product", even if it is imported.
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« Reply #1302 on: March 21, 2018, 10:18:35 pm »

I'm suspicious of anything labeled "processed cheese product", even if it is imported.

Very true. I bought that particular one because I wanted to buy smoked cheese. I could have chosen a very similar American smoked goat cheese. And I'm not even sure if smoking the cheese alone already counts as "processing" the cheese, given that smoking is not a traditional part of making making many cheeses...

The factory, however does not just produce "processed" cheese - look at their website. Obviously since 1831 they were making traditional Edam/Maasdam or Gouda, cheese or all of the above...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 10:20:22 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged

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« Reply #1303 on: March 21, 2018, 10:23:32 pm »



Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I KNEW IT!!!  Our "Civil War was fought over CHEESE!

I wouldn't go that far. I know you're joking of course  Grin But seriously, the German(ic) migrants tended to be against slavery, generally speaking. Also, it's more likely we can peg the origin of the war to  cotton - which did employ slave labour and was a major source of revenue for the South.
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Will Howard
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« Reply #1304 on: March 22, 2018, 12:32:32 am »



I wouldn't go that far. I know you're joking of course  Grin But seriously, the German(ic) migrants tended to be against slavery, generally speaking. Also, it's more likely we can peg the origin of the war to  cotton - which did employ slave labour and was a major source of revenue for the South.
[/quote]

Many were, perhaps most were.  BUT many Germans (at least here in Texas) joined the Confederate or State Forces.  For example, the 7th Texas Mounted Volunteers were recruited around Fredricksburg, Texas & had a number of German members.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 12:50:22 am by Will Howard » Logged
Will Howard
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« Reply #1305 on: March 22, 2018, 12:39:01 am »



I wouldn't go that far. I know you're joking of course  Grin But seriously, the German(ic) migrants tended to be against slavery, generally speaking. Also, it's more likely we can peg the origin of the war to  cotton - which did employ slave labour and was a major source of revenue for the South.
[/quote]

Many were, perhaps most were.  BUT many Germans (at least here in Texas) joined the Confederate or State Forces.  For example, the 7th Texas Mounted Volunteers were recruited around Fredricksburg, Texas & had a number of German members.

Not just to cotton, but also to tobacco & to some extent to corn & other agricultural products.  Thus ECONOMICS was a major cause of the war- AND the "protective tariffs" that ensured that European products ALWAYS cost more than the same things made in the North.  Northern big business had a virtual monopoly on sales of tools & farm equipment (supported by the government, no less).  Yes, the South "made" a lot of money from slave labor, but a LOT of that went to the North as payment for overpriced (as compared to what comparable European items would have cost without the added-on tariffs), so THE NORTH was ALSO profiting from slave labor.  Besides, the Confederacy DID NOT INVENT slavery- it was already a factor in American life- some Northerners (U. S. Grant's wife, for example) owned slaves.  Slaves in the North were NOT freed by Lincoln's "Emancipation Proclamation" (read it!)- that took a (postwar) Constitutional Ammendment.  The U. S. Army did not "free" slaves either- They called them "Contrabands of War" & put them to work in conditions hardly better than those they lived under as slaves.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 12:49:40 am by Will Howard » Logged
J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #1306 on: March 22, 2018, 01:38:26 am »

Quote
I wouldn't go that far. I know you're joking of course  Grin But seriously, the German(ic) migrants tended to be against slavery, generally speaking. Also, it's more likely we can peg the origin of the war to  cotton - which did employ slave labour and was a major source of revenue for the South.

Many were, perhaps most were.  BUT many Germans (at least here in Texas) joined the Confederate or State Forces.  For example, the 7th Texas Mounted Volunteers were recruited around Fredricksburg, Texas & had a number of German members.

Not just to cotton, but also to tobacco & to some extent to corn & other agricultural products.  Thus ECONOMICS was a major cause of the war- AND the "protective tariffs" that ensured that European products ALWAYS cost more than the same things made in the North.  Northern big business had a virtual monopoly on sales of tools & farm equipment (supported by the government, no less).  Yes, the South "made" a lot of money from slave labor, but a LOT of that went to the North as payment for overpriced (as compared to what comparable European items would have cost without the added-on tariffs), so THE NORTH was ALSO profiting from slave labor.  Besides, the Confederacy DID NOT INVENT slavery- it was already a factor in American life- some Northerners (U. S. Grant's wife, for example) owned slaves.  Slaves in the North were NOT freed by Lincoln's "Emancipation Proclamation" (read it!)- that took a (postwar) Constitutional Ammendment.  The U. S. Army did not "free" slaves either- They called them "Contrabands of War" & put them to work in conditions hardly better than those they lived under as slaves.

There are no angels anywhere in this world, Mr. Howard. Nobody is doing things out of sheer love for humanity. Naturally the winning side gets to write history, and what is taught to children is always the most sterilised version of events. Still, as a whole, the slavery based economy was - and still is - indefensible.    ~   Whether the one doing the patronising is a hypocrit or not.

The Spanish banished slavery in the Continental Americas in the 1600s, and yet they continued trasporting and selling slaves by way of the Cairbbean well into the 19th. C. Who was buying the slaves so late in history? Do we dare ask?  The United States of course, and many of those slaves would have ended up in the South, by way of New Orleans.

Obviously because the Spanish were profiting from slavery they still alowed the traffic of slaves - see the movie Amistad with Anthony Hopkins. The Spanish interest in the geographically selective banishment of slavery was part of their ethnic "hispanisation" of the continent - just following a recipe invented by the Germanic Visigoths in ancient Spain during the slow decay of the Roman Empire. The Visigoths understood the free mixing of races as a necessary step to political stability as divisions threatened the empire.

Thereafter, the rulers of Spain, including the Hapsburg family from the Holy Roman Empire took it as an unwritten rule that slavery had no place in a racially mixed society - for social engineering purposes, as opposed to any kind of altruism. So no. There are no angels, but relative good can sometimes come from the circumstances. If you were a black slave in the Caribbean islands, and you were lucky to reach the mainland coast, say to the Viceroyalty of the New Spain, you would have kissed the ground and it would have indeed very much tasted like sweet freedom.

~ ~ ~

I find it most interesting that some business enterprises, naturally textile, in the UK were looking forward to the Confederate Secession. That is in fact part of the premise in my story, where I flip things around and ask the question:

What if the Confederate States saught help from Fance during the Intervention in the 1860s? Would the British have been happy to see a French/Austrian/CSA alliance win? Or would they have seen it as a potential block of cotton if the French monopolised the market or outright refused the sale of Southern cotton to Britain?

My assumption is that the British crown would have to shut the mouth of businessmen and side with the union. Having access to expensive cotton markets is better than having no access to cotton markets at all.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 07:26:48 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
Will Howard
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« Reply #1307 on: March 22, 2018, 01:52:24 am »

To J Willhelm,
~ ~ ~

I find it most interesting that some business enterprises, naturally textile, in the UK were looking forward to the Confederate Secession. That is in fact part of the premise in my story, where I flip things around and ask the question:

What if the Confederate States saught help from Fance during the Intervention in the 1860s? Would the British have been happy to see a French/Austrian.CSA alliance win? Or would they have seen it as a potential block of cotton if the French monopolised the market or outright refused the sale of Southern cotton to Britain?

My assumption is that the British crown would have to shut the mouth of businessmen and side with the union. Having access to expensive cotton markets is better than having no access to cotton markets at all.
[/quote]

Sounds like an interesting story.  Will it be available?  British interests in Egypt & India were directly related to their lookinf for new sources of cotton, as the war reduced the available supply from North America...
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #1308 on: March 22, 2018, 07:17:48 am »



Quote
I find it most interesting that some business enterprises, naturally textile, in the UK were looking forward to the Confederate Secession. That is in fact part of the premise in my story, where I flip things around and ask the question:

What if the Confederate States saught help from Fance during the Intervention in the 1860s? Would the British have been happy to see a French/Austrian.CSA alliance win? Or would they have seen it as a potential block of cotton if the French monopolised the market or outright refused the sale of Southern cotton to Britain?

My assumption is that the British crown would have to shut the mouth of businessmen and side with the union. Having access to expensive cotton markets is better than having no access to cotton markets at all.

Sounds like an interesting story.  Will it be available?  British interests in Egypt & India were directly related to their lookinf for new sources of cotton, as the war reduced the available supply from North America...

It needs to evolve past the gestation phase, but yeah, that's the plan. That is just part of the background story actually.

In my story the South will have more money but not be able to win. Under harsh conditions, the Confederates will sacrifice contested and even Union territory and give it away to prospective allies as long as the CSA survives. It's a make a deal with the devil kind of situation.
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yereverluvinunclebert
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« Reply #1309 on: March 22, 2018, 12:35:52 pm »

Food Brands please - steampunk in nature, design and date.

You two - get a thread...

Alternate history is fun though eh?
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Will Howard
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« Reply #1310 on: March 22, 2018, 04:03:16 pm »

Food Brands please - steampunk in nature, design and date.

You two - get a thread...

Alternate history is fun though eh?


This discussion DID start over a comment about cheese, after all!
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #1311 on: March 22, 2018, 08:38:15 pm »

Food Brands please - steampunk in nature, design and date.

You two - get a thread...

Alternate history is fun though eh?


Well then, contribute! Talk is cheese... I mean cheap! Find a European cheese - or let the cheese find you! I've been writing about cheese because that is the mostly unexplored area in my supermarkets. It turns out we have a lot of imported cheeses in America. Cheese has turned out to be a little like alcohol, being a traditionally traded commodity that dates back by a couple of centuries at least. First impression, it seems to me that the dairy world still has a number of cheese brands to offer for the European lists, which I'm sure are available across the pond. We can't expect all of the relevant European cheese brands to be represented in America's import aisles.
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Will Howard
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« Reply #1312 on: March 22, 2018, 09:18:19 pm »

Food Brands please - steampunk in nature, design and date.

You two - get a thread...

Alternate history is fun though eh?


Well then, contribute! Talk is cheese... I mean cheap! Find a European cheese - or let the cheese find you! I've been writing about cheese because that is the mostly unexplored area in my supermarkets. It turns out we have a lot of imported cheeses in America. Cheese has turned out to be a little like alcohol, being a traditionally traded commodity that dates back by a couple of centuries at least. First impression, it seems to me that the dairy world still has a number of cheese brands to offer for the European lists, which I'm sure are available across the pond. We can't expect all of the relevant European cheese brands to be represented in America's import aisles.

I love Gouda from Holland & Manchego from Spain.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #1313 on: March 22, 2018, 09:24:25 pm »

Food Brands please - steampunk in nature, design and date.

You two - get a thread...

Alternate history is fun though eh?


Well then, contribute! Talk is cheese... I mean cheap! Find a European cheese - or let the cheese find you! I've been writing about cheese because that is the mostly unexplored area in my supermarkets. It turns out we have a lot of imported cheeses in America. Cheese has turned out to be a little like alcohol, being a traditionally traded commodity that dates back by a couple of centuries at least. First impression, it seems to me that the dairy world still has a number of cheese brands to offer for the European lists, which I'm sure are available across the pond. We can't expect all of the relevant European cheese brands to be represented in America's import aisles.

I love Gouda from Holland & Manchego from Spain.

I'm having a hard time finding older Spanish brands. We have several Spanish (goat milk) Manchego cheeses from Spain (which I can photograph at HEB), but all the brands are "new," meaning non Victorian. Geopolitically I don't know why Spain is devoid of older brands. Its a very difficult list to populate - or we just don't get enough Spanish products here. I'm more likely to find Mexican dairy brands, and as I have explained for historical reasons (independence in 1810-21), elligible food brands in Mexico tend to be unrelated to Spain in great measure.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 09:29:09 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
RJBowman
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« Reply #1314 on: March 23, 2018, 02:11:19 am »

Geopolitically I don't know why Spain is devoid of older brands.

Might they have been dismantled by the Franco regime?
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #1315 on: March 23, 2018, 03:37:36 am »

Geopolitically I don't know why Spain is devoid of older brands.

Might they have been dismantled by the Franco regime?
Perhaps but wasn't Franco Pro Monarchy, hence conservative, and more likely to keep traditional business? The socialists would be the opposite. But maybe a lot of businesses simply didn't survive the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s
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Will Howard
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« Reply #1316 on: March 28, 2018, 07:15:35 pm »

Geopolitically I don't know why Spain is devoid of older brands.

Might they have been dismantled by the Franco regime?
Perhaps but wasn't Franco Pro Monarchy, hence conservative, and more likely to keep traditional business? The socialists would be the opposite. But maybe a lot of businesses simply didn't survive the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s

Manchego is from La Mancha & the Pyrenees & that area (especially the Basque regions) were GREATLY affected by the war (remember Guernica?)  The Basques were especially victimized by Franco (he even banned their language) & I'm sure that many small businesses did not survive.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #1317 on: March 28, 2018, 08:07:28 pm »

Geopolitically I don't know why Spain is devoid of older brands.

Might they have been dismantled by the Franco regime?
Perhaps but wasn't Franco Pro Monarchy, hence conservative, and more likely to keep traditional business? The socialists would be the opposite. But maybe a lot of businesses simply didn't survive the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s

Manchego is from La Mancha & the Pyrenees & that area (especially the Basque regions) were GREATLY affected by the war (remember Guernica?)  The Basques were especially victimized by Franco (he even banned their language) & I'm sure that many small businesses did not survive.

I'm 1/4 Basque (Look up Valley of Baztan - the family name differs by one letter), but specifically from the former Kingdom of Navarra. It's a big part of who I am, physically speaking-as the genes dominate. But our side of the family could have come to the Americas 300 years ago or longer, and the modern (political) Basque region is an amalgalm of different ancient regions, actually, so the Basque conflicts (Franco/Modern separatists) in the 20th C are far far away from our mind.

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« Reply #1318 on: March 28, 2018, 08:19:19 pm »

Here is another find from the UK. I'm not sure if this was included before. Surprisingly this one was found at Walmart (!), the last place you'd expect to find imported cheeses. But they have a few, including Brie, Gorgonzola, Gouda, Gruyère, and some German varieties.

Wyke Farms Cheese claim their origins to an 1861 recipe developed by Ivy Clothier, from Somerset.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyke_Farms
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 08:44:12 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
yereverluvinunclebert
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« Reply #1319 on: March 28, 2018, 09:57:06 pm »

Buy it and try it. Make a ploughmans.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #1320 on: March 29, 2018, 01:18:07 am »

Buy it and try it. Make a ploughmans.

So many cheeses, so little time...
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« Reply #1321 on: March 29, 2018, 06:28:43 pm »

I gouda mentioned something about it before, but I was reminded today of this brand, while I was having dinner.

The dinner is penne pasta with meatballs, covered in 5 cheese cream sauce with sautéed sweet onions and Balsamic vinegar, and then topped with a slice of Emmental cheese (a/k/a "Swiss" for Americans), and shavings of smoked Gouda.

The brand of the Dutch Gouda cheese is Kroon, who claim to date back to 1831.

I still need more details as their website lacks specifics... The website does not mention which type of cheese was made by them back in 1831, but I'm assuming it would be the local variety, whichever location was closer to them at the time, Maasdam, Edam, or Gouda. So I can only pinpoint the company's present location but not their site of origin.

I hate it when companies claim a certain pedigree and then they don't back it up with history.



Indeed! The site had a very generic feel to it!

Even a video I found from them missed the chance to tell some history.

One reason I found this lack of pride in their history could be that "Kroon" is just one of the many brands now owned by a bigger foodservice company FrieslandCampina.
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« Reply #1322 on: March 29, 2018, 07:32:54 pm »

I gouda mentioned something about it before, but I was reminded today of this brand, while I was having dinner.

The dinner is penne pasta with meatballs, covered in 5 cheese cream sauce with sautéed sweet onions and Balsamic vinegar, and then topped with a slice of Emmental cheese (a/k/a "Swiss" for Americans), and shavings of smoked Gouda.

The brand of the Dutch Gouda cheese is Kroon, who claim to date back to 1831.

I still need more details as their website lacks specifics... The website does not mention which type of cheese was made by them back in 1831, but I'm assuming it would be the local variety, whichever location was closer to them at the time, Maasdam, Edam, or Gouda. So I can only pinpoint the company's present location but not their site of origin.

I hate it when companies claim a certain pedigree and then they don't back it up with history.



Indeed! The site had a very generic feel to it!

Even a video I found from them missed the chance to tell some history.

One reason I found this lack of pride in their history could be that "Kroon" is just one of the many brands now owned by a bigger foodservice company FrieslandCampina.


That tends to happen too often. When larger conglomerates buy smaller national food brands, history is lost. As if the history had no commercial value. Oddly, I've seen that more often from European conglomerates, than American ones; their corporate identity is more global.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 07:37:31 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
Mercury Wells
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« Reply #1323 on: April 12, 2018, 12:54:06 am »

One for the Oriental list

Hitachino (originally Saki brewers) 1823.

Has anyone tried their ales?.
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« Reply #1324 on: April 16, 2018, 09:35:42 pm »

One for the Oriental list

Hitachino (originally Saki brewers) 1823.

Has anyone tried their ales?.

Thank you Mr. Wells! Will go to the Japanese list!

FOLKS: Reminder: Those who have the ability to compile the list outsode of BG, please do so. I just had a scare today where I though the server had erased the last 3 months of this thread. It turned out to be a cache/server hyccup, but we should be prepared!
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