Photographers at Asylum and Whitby etc

[vampyresheep]

apologies if this is in the wrong forum but its related to events and I couldn't think where best to post it!  Feel free to move it if I've posted in the wrong place *slaps wrist pre-emptively*

A friend has recently written this article http://www.fashionsalternative.com/blog/shooting-goths-whitby-goth-photographers/ about the epidemic of photographers at Whitby Goth Weekend - whilst this article is mainly about the goth scene, I think it is just as relevant to steampunks too, particularly as a number of you attend WGW and its happening more at the Asylum too.  The article contains some rather eye-opening comments about how some photographers treat WGW and their "free" subjects.  

I was getting rather annoyed by the increasing numbers of intrusive photographers at the Asylum last year.  Its one thing if it someone who is part of the scene or a bemused tourist.  However organised groups of camera club members coming along for a free photoshoot is another thing all together!  On a number of times last year we were approached whilst minding our own business, by someone not just wanting an ad-hoc photo but expecting us to break off from whatever we were doing to go with them.  I'd always refuse those requests but quite a few people seemed happy to oblige.

Intrusive behaviour aside, i have to admit that I never put too much thought about what happens to the photos afterwards - only one 'tog last year had the decency to get back to me with a copy of photo taken - so it was a bit of a shock to google "whitby" and "camera club" to see just how bad its gone there.  So many forums discussing "the goths", arranging group outings to photograph them, ogling over the finished results and at the worse extreme, making fun of their subjects.

Not only does this sadden me for those who agree to be photographed in good faith, it also worries me that the Asylum could become as bad if we're not careful.  Just think how much more difficult it will be to get accommodation too, if the city also has to cater for groups of camera-letches booking their hotels for the  weekend too!  Whilst its flattering to be stopped to ask for photos, I think we all should be more selective about who we "allow" to take photos and whether we want to be treated as a free of charge model - and maybe be a bit more savvy about the potential outcome.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

The Asylum and WGW are held at least in part in public spaces, so there is no control over such activity.

One way to minimise this might be to organise a number of photo opportunities over the weekend, there are one or two incorrigible show offs in our community (hard to believe I know), so if we could arrange for them to meet the camera clubs and avoid steampunks racing between functions, so much the better.

[Major Willoughby Chase]

The big advantage we have this year, is that the Castle isn't open to all for the Asylum weekend.  Well, it is, but only if you pay.  This should put some of them off.

At The Asylum, last year, I was approached by just over one hundred people on the Saturday.  By and large it was rather bemused tourists and other steampunks, but there were a fair number of amateur photographers.  Of the latter group, perhaps half a dozen sent me pictures.  They all had my card, so all could have easily done so.  I had to brush off a couple, one not so politely, as they seemed to think I was at their beck and call and their quick photograph became many, many and more and more demanding.

My solution this year, is that I have approached Tinker with a view to carrying a collecting tin for one of the charities the event is supporting.  Pop £1 in the tin and you can take my picture, no donation, no snappy snap.  So far I'm viewing this as a win/win situation.  If I get stopped by as many people as I did last year and they all donate, I raise £100.  If they don't like the idea of donating, then I win back some of my time to do the things I want to and maybe only raise £50.

I have to admit, I do wonder what is happening with the pictures.

Also, I'm probably now going to google something along the lines of Lincoln Camera Club


Edited to add ...,

aaaaaaand here we go:

http://www.rbcameraclub.co.uk/gallery_252856.html Ironic, is it not, vampyresheep?

[vampyresheep]

The Asylum and WGW are held at least in part in public spaces, so there is no control over such activity.

One way to minimise this might be to organise a number of photo opportunities over the weekend, there are one or two incorrigible show offs in our community (hard to believe I know), so if we could arrange for them to meet the camera clubs and avoid steampunks racing between functions, so much the better.

yes, its public spaces where the issue is (sorry if you thought I was making any comment about the events themselves, those photographers invariably have purchased tickets themselves and have more respect for the scene!) - the only control we have is our own common sense and how we approach the photographers.  If people are happy to pander to their every whim, such as the case mentioned re a lot of the WGW photographers, then they will continue to have the impression that we only dress for their benefit.

[greensteam]

I think these so called photography clubs have as much to do with art as twitching has to do with serious ornithology. i.e. none. It would be very nearly impossible to take a photo of an even half way reasonably attired steampunk and not get a nice pic. Minimal skill maximum exploitation.

Am actually pretty shocked by the descriptions of what went on at WGW.

[vampyresheep]

I have to admit, I do wonder what is happening with the pictures.

Also, I'm probably now going to google something along the lines of Lincoln Camera Club


Edited to add ...,

aaaaaaand here we go:

http://www.rbcameraclub.co.uk/gallery_252856.html Ironic, is it not, vampyresheep?

ah yes, i remember that rather rude woman.  She took issue with the fact that I emailed her to ask what she was going to use Rob's photo for and if it was to be published anywhere, would it be possible to have a copy as Rob doesn't use the internet.  Last year, she approached me and publicly reprimanded me for upsetting her (?), saying how proud she was of the photo and upset that I had issue with it being used elsewhere without our knowledge.  I only found out later that she even gave other people hard copies of their photos but didn't give Rob his copy (not sure if that was a genuine omission or her way of getting back at me for allegedly upsetting her!).  To add insult to injury, i never even got to see the photo she took of me as it apparently "wasn't good enough" - nice.
Nice to know she even entered them for a competition without having the decency to let us know; its not as though she didn't have my email address!
 

[Major Willoughby Chase]

I can see there being some kind of Golden Cog thing for photographers.  Make a sizeable donation to the event charities, wear this badge, don't be a cock and we're more likely (but not required) to treat you nicely.

[Dr cornelius quack]

I find that the problem can be avoided by a combination of 'Studied rudeness'  and 'Being Plug ugly'.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

I find that the problem can be avoided by a combination of 'Studied rudeness'  and 'Being Plug ugly'.

So thats what the Phd is in!

[Dr cornelius quack]

I find that the problem can be avoided by a combination of 'Studied rudeness'  and 'Being Plug ugly'.

So thats what the Phd is in!

Oh yes!!

It took years of effort to get this ugly.

[Capt. Dirigible]

Steampunks also have this reputation for being nice and polite and civil and it's something we don't want to ruin but sooner or later someone is going to lose it with an over zealous photographer and 'go all Sean Penn on their ass'.

[ladyelsie]

At the Asylum last year, we did have just inside the Castle gateways 2 signs with our photography policy.

I also gave out some cards to steampunks with the policy printed on. At various times I went around the grounds asking if any of the photographers were being a pain in the butt to our guests. A couple of people were pointed out to me and I gave them one of our cards.

The cards clearly state that;

 ''Steampunks taking part are private individuals at a private event. They are usually happy to have their pictures taken but PLEASE ask permission BEFORE you do so. No picture may be published or sold without the signed release of the person in the picture, a copy of which must be registered with the VSS. prior to publication''.

The back of the card clearly states what we will do if we find an image has been sold. We also ask that copies are supplied to the people in the pictures.

I have had an opportunity to discuss this with Jo Hampshire, Whitby's Top Mum, and shared with her our policy. As it is more of a problem there as the whole event is held in public places.

This year the castle will not be free entry for all, but our convention band holders will have free entry so it may be a haven of peace and quiet from the hoards.

If anyone finds a photo of a steampunk, which they think was taken at the Asylum, being sold , please let us know.
We will act as we take this very seriously.

[vampyresheep]

As far as i noticed, most did at least ask for permission - apart from one rather cheeky bloke who sneakily grabbed a photo over Martin (Soulstealer)'s shoulder, whilst he was trying to set up a little group pic of our "london lot" - and then he managed to publish his version before Martin got a chance, thereby getting all the credit!
However, once they got permission, many then took it as read that we were happy to perform as unpaid models, not just a quick shot for posterity. 
I was most unimpressed with the aforementioned guy who interrupted us whilst we were relaxing with a coffee outside the market and another who expected Rob to clamber up a tree stump, looking like a demented pixie!  (Rob was just too polite to refuse and i didn't want to be the pushy girlfriend!).  This year, i will be politely refusing anyone who looks like they may be too demanding.  Whilst I am proud of the efforts I make to dress the part and would like a record of the outfits I make, I am not a model who only dressed up to be photographed.  In fact I'm really not entirely comfortable in front of a camera; so its only very few photographers who can get a decent natural pic of me, namely those who actually know me!

It would have been nice to have seen some of the photographic results too.  But other than those taken by fellow Asylum attendees, the only one who got back to me was the one who shot Rob's "demented pixie" look, which included the most unflattering angle of me to boot!

I appreciate that you, as organisers, do your utmost to keep the vultures at bay  ; however when it comes down to it, it is down to all of us to be aware and as a result, hopefully not encourage similar attitudes to what I keep reading about Whitby.

[yaghish]

To bad you have it posted on the UK section, because the problem with photographers isn't limited to the UK. It isn't limited to Goth either, I've known the problems from the Dutch fantasy-scene for the last 8 years. I hear similar things from Germany, from the re-enactor events.

In Holland we have the Elf Fantasy Fair (EFF), which takes place in the lush park surrounding a fairy-tale-like castle. It looks good as it does. Then during the EFF fantasy-lovers (and Goths, and steampunks, and the usual bunch of Star Wars troops) show up. It isn't obligatory to be "in costume", yet many are. There's a costume contest, many costumes are extremely pretty and well made (or even rather sexy, since body paint is also counted as costume). The park is filled with creatures from fantasy.

This attracks many photographers, even if they have to pay for getting in (about €20-€25). Well, as it turnes out every year, many come in paying, shooting free pictures of the free "models", then sell the photographs online. If you're on the picture, you receive NOTHING in return (more often than not, you don't even get a free picture for posing). Kindly asking to remove the pictures of your person can help, but not all photographers are that polite.

The organisation of EFF have put into their visitor guideline the rule that photographs and video's made during the EFF shall not be used for commercial purposes. But even that doesn't keep the photographers from doing so.
Each year after the EFF, the forums are filled with complaints about the photographers.

However, the costumed visitors are to blame as well, at least some of them. In the earlier days of the event, it was just some con or meeting with fans of the genre (many writers, artists, shops too). Now, the costuming seems to be the core-business. Many go there to be seen, to model and be photographed. And when you pose for one, it's easy for 20 others to get a good shot at you as well.
Some groups get paid, or get free admission, when they "model" on the EFF, as far as I understood. I think when you're hired as an attrection, you shouldn't complain about being photographed.

Being a "normal" visitor, I'm annoyed that the EFF (but not only that event) has turned into one large photo-stage. You can't turn anywhere without camera's looking at you when you are "in costume". Models and photographers occupy the most beautiful sites in the park, no matter if that's in a "don't walk through the flowers"-area, or on a main path (and thus obstructing traffic), or a place that was already occupied with visitors who where looking for a place to rest.

I think this photography-thing is what me keeps from attending such events now. I just want to meet similar minded people, get some snapshots as a memory of good times and no hassle from people who don't belong to be there because they have nothing in common with the gathering community.

Maybe the Goths can have a rule that each photographer should be costumed in tight spanky leather BDSM costumes? I think that will help sorting things out.

[Rt Hon Septabarius Cogge]

Maybe we should have a rule of politely asking every photographer to pose for photographs with and for us. And then we takes lots of pictures of them (always saying thank you of course), and other people rush in and take pictures of them as well (and still remembering to say thank you).

Even if it doesn't put them off, it makes the score a little bit more even - and if they're posing for photos, that's a couple of minutes where they can't take photos themselves.   

Mind you, the photographers who were there ten years ago I consider friendly faces who it's nice to see every now and again. What's annoying is that instead of three or four of them it's a crowd, and it's now impossible to go up the stairs and sit and contemplate the harbour without being approached, again, and again, and ...

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

Its the rise of the digital camera, almost unlimited pictures means poorer photographers join in as they can edit out their numerous dud shots and everybody snaps away with abandon, no more limiting exposures.

[vampyresheep]

yaghnish - that's terrible that you can't even get away from it even within the paid area at EFF!  one would think that it would be relatively safer once one is in an area where everyone is (or should be!) part of the event.

I go to Wave Gotik Treffen most years and although the photographers are pretty bad there, I don't think its quite as bad as the Whitby situation.  Maybe because the event is so much bigger.  When at WGT, I tend to get stopped quite frequently in the town but mainly by tourists/locals or the local newspaper photographers; its usually just stop for one picture and a thank-you.
I do notice there is more of a bombardment of Camera-club sort of people outside the Agra (the main venue) but I tend to get ignored there as they only go for the uber-uber dressed up types!
I do feel with the European festivals, mainly because they are so much bigger, there is more of a divide between the ultra dressed up, who are there only to be photographed and the rest of us who are there to enjoy the festival, so I've not been as hassled.

[Capt. Dirigible]

I will happily pose for fellow steampunks if requested, I'm more than happy to have my photo taken by people like Martin/Soulstealer (who has taken some of the best photos of me I've ever seen and always asks permission  if they are to be published elsewhere) or Duncan (the VSS official photographer and a good friend  of mine for many years). I'll pose for a quick snapshot by a member of the public if they're good enough to ask first. However,there were times last year where The Countess was approached for a photo and she firmly declined (as she has a deep aversion to having her photo taken when she cannot vet the end product and has no say in where it ends up..which I completely understand) and so after being told quite catagorically 'No photos!!' the photographer would then skulk off to one side and try and take shots from a distance with a zoom lens.

Just out of interest..if  we were to tell a photographer catagorically 'No Photos' and he goes ahead anyway snapping our pics...can we hit him?...knock their cameras out of their hands?..pin him to the wall and threaten to shove his Nikon up his arse? Where do we stand stand in defending our own image from misuse by these people?

[Herr Döktor]

I say, steady on, old chap! At least get some ruffians to do the the dirty deed!

Being a photo tart and a little oblivious, it doesn't matter so much to me, the one time I've done Whitby a very pleasant trio of photographers took a series of posed pictures of myself and some lovely young ladies (steady!), they happily sent me copies and links to their web pages.

Mind you, I can see this is a possibly rare example, so I'd be behind some blanket rule or united front.

[Trinitytrashuk]

Paint yourself in that paint chavs use on their numberplates to stop being caught speeding.

That way they can snap away, but end up with a blured image 

All joking aside, I am always happy to be snapped with friends by other Steamy folks, but find the whole "happy snappers" thing annoying.

I sat outside the Prison last year eating a pork roll and had around 20 people snap me mid nom.  Not one asked if they could and they just thought it ok to stop and snap me because I was sat there.

Why are we fair game?  I would like to know if there is any way of explaining that we are nice polite folk and if you ask nicely we might pose for a photo or two in passing, however, if the response is no please respect our privacy as we do theirs.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

There is very little you can do should someone take your picture against your will. Amateurs' can rely upon the hobby /personal use exemption under s36 Data Protection Act 1998, so they do not have to register as a datacontroller and be subject to the controls against unfair processing. News and professional photographers will be registered, the former may rely upon journalistic exemption.

If you suspect someone is a professional seeking to obtain free use of your image please note, the ICO maintains an on-line register of Datacontrollers, you can on your smartphone check anyones registration. It is a criminal offence to be processing personal data unless registered or exempt from registration. Ask them their personal details to run a check, if they refuse TAKE THEIR PICTURE. You are an amateur' you will be exempt.

[Madame Curatrix]

As a law student, I find this thread to be particularly fascinating because it presents an opportunity to see how the law can intersect with / conflict with the interests of Steampunks. (I'll use the term 'Steampunks' for my post for the sake of brevity/relevance, but by this I mean by extension any persons in any subculture or fandom who costumes up to attend large scale convention type events)

I realize that the original postings refer to events based in the UK and are thus subject to UK law, but I figured, as at least one other person in the thread has pointed out, that a US perspective may be useful. Dr. Euphonic (a fellow BG member and law student who more often reads than posts) and I discussed some of the issues that might arise when considering a similar situation under US law.

Obligatory disclaimer: Since we're both not licensed attorneys, nothing we say should be deemed to creating an attorney-client relationship, nor should it be relied on in a court of law. If you want to take action, please consult a licensed attorney. Thanks.

The most prevalent legal issue that springs to mind is the Right of Privacy. Invasion of the right of privacy is a subsection of tort law (in lay person terms, that's personal injury law). Under US law, there is a form of invasion of privacy called 'appropriation'. Appropriation involves the unauthorized use of the name or image of a person for the purpose of obtaining some benefit for the person engaging in the unauthorized use.

Most US states have enacted statutes governing appropriation of the right of privacy. Under Pennsylvania law (where I live), the cause of action for the statute concerning unauthorized use reads as follows:

“Any natural person whose name or likeness has commercial value and is used for any commercial or advertising purpose without the written consent of such natural person or the written consent of any of the parties authorized … may bring an action to enjoin such unauthorized use and to recover damages for any loss or injury sustained by such use.”

Key to our analysis of why most steampunks would not be able to find refuge under this law lies in the requirement of “commercial value.” The statute goes on to define “commercial value” as “Valuable interest in a natural person's name or likeness that is developed through the investment of time, effort and money.”

Clearly, the term does cover media personalities who have well-developed characters in which they have a financial interest. For a Steampunk example, Lady Clankington (selected here because she’s a Pennsylvania resident) would be able to invoke the protection of this statute because she uses her recognizable, developed persona to promote her rather singular line of products. By contrast, your garden-variety steampunk attending a con will likely not be able to assert the same claim of having a ‘commercial value’ (at least in the context of personality and image).

For my part, I would argue that even if a steampunk costumer lacks a developed and marketed persona, that alone should not be sufficient to pre-emptively defeat a claim for appropriation of their personality. It seems clear to me, after reading this thread and the article about Whitby, that many photographers who go to these events don’t discriminate, or even know, if they’re photographing a steampunk VIP. They’re not making judgment calls like “Oh hey, that’s Professor Elemental! We need a photo of him!” or “Wow, that’s A Count Named Slick Brass! Let’s get his picture!” Photographers value one thing: a photogenic subject. In other words, you may be someone as humble as a once-a-year-con-goer (guilty), but as long as you have a fantastic, or scandalous, costume, photographers are likely to gravitate toward you.

This is particularly relevant to Steampunk, where many non-commercial steampunkers expend enormous amounts of time, effort, and money (all things required for the development of “commercial value” under PA law, I might mention) to create their costumes – including unique props and accessories. Furthermore, these costumes are often the visual manifestation of having developed a persona for the purposes of roleplay or other escapist activities within the subculture. It hardly seems fair, then, for some unscrupulous photographers to swoop in and, with a click of the shutter button, take advantage of the tangible and intellectual creative output of steampunks for their own ends, and escape prosecution because the subjects allegedly have no commercial interest in their identities.

Dr. Euphonic at this point, however, correctly pointed out that historically US law, like its international counterparts, has been reluctant to grant intellectual property protection for fashion design. Thus, costumes, unless they are recognizable as a developed character that rises to the level of having established intellectual property interests (Lady Mechanika, Danger Girl, etc.), are generally not copyrightable. Other tangible creations, however, lend themselves readily to copyright protection. So, you can likely claim copyright infringement if someone takes a photo featuring your super-spiffy steampunk mechanical arm and sells the photograph without your permission or without giving credit to you.

A good thing about most US steampunk conventions is that they are located in hotels. This means that if enough people are offended by the conduct of an attendant photographer, they could ask the convention organizers and the hotel to show the offender the door.

I do like the idea of convention organizers giving photographers notice cards for appropriate conduct as previously mentioned in this thread. Keep in mind, however, that many of these rules don't apply if you're dealing with a photographer that is legitimately covering the event on behalf of a news organization.

Oh, and Dr. Euphonic pointed out, wisely I think, that at the point where the photographer begins to order a convention-goer around, asking for poses and standing in certain locations, then there can be implied a contractual agreement in which the subject can expect and demand compensation for their services. If the photographer refuses compensation, or at least assurances (preferably in writing or through the conveyance of a business card/website/email address) that the photographs won’t be used for commercial or inappropriate purposes, then I think it is the right and choice of the steampunker in question to decline to pose for the photographer – and even demand that the photographs that have already been taken be deleted to eliminate the potential for the photographer's unjust enrichment.

I admit, reading all this has made me a bit more conscious of how I might have to deal with such a situation when attending a convention in the future.

Wow, that turned out a bit longer than I had anticipated. Anyhow, hope that some of this rambling post can be of use to fellow steampunks.

[andrew craven]

Never had any problemos with camera freaks out there...they save me in taking pics of myself and so on! So I can just relax..if they get pushy, give em the old one twos or gob in their lense..tell em to Ef Off or walk on...or drown em in the bath tub full of gin! In whitby theres plenty of Poseidon Juice! Anyway, they're reet as far as I am concerned!

[sebastian Inkerman]

Fortunately, as I no longer wear the steam arm military outfit, I rarely get asked for pictures. That said, if I do get asked for piccies, I'll do it and ask to see their pictures once they have taken them. In my experience, the photographers are happy to delete any that you think look hideous. If they get pushy, ask to have all of the photos deleted and then walk the hell away from them.
It's a good idea to have a can to rattle, but then could that not be construed as payment?

[Lady Chrystal]

I appreciate that many people are dressed in their finest, but what about "SPOILER" sashes that could be worn over our finery? Obviously these could be removed for official and desired photographs - but would be a reasonable barrier to casual snappers. So a photographer could reasonably be asked for a charity donation to get someone to remove their sash.

I know it's not a perfect solution, but might be worth a try.

Just a thought.