Photographers at Asylum and Whitby etc

[TimeTinker]

The definitive photography policy for The Asylum is published at the bottom of this post.  It has been published on the site (http://steampunk.synthasite.com) since last year.

Note it has no bearing on people in the streets around Lincoln but only in the private event parts of the festival.  We will be posting notices at the entrances to venues including the Castle.   The Castle is NOT free access this year.  All wristband holders can come and go as they please and the public have to pay for entry.

The problem is the minority "paparazzi".  These are anti social jerks as you get in all scenes and locations.  How steampunks deal with them can alleviate or exacerbate the problem so the responsibility is actually on the shoulders of everyone who attends.

Advice on how to cope with them:

a) Stay polite but be assertive.
b) If being bothered by someone simply walk away.
c) Only pose if you are happy to
d) If they ask you to pose and you want copies of the pictures - ask them for their card before you pose.  Don't give them your card.
e) If someone is behaving inappropriately then report them to VSS staff in a closed venue or the Castle staff in the Castle grounds.
f) If people start "papping" whilst you are posing for someone polite then apologise to your photographer and ask them if you can move with them.   If you are in the Castle then the Prison should be a photogenic and secure space provider your polite photographer is a wristband holder.

The problem with a designated photography area Aethera is that the anti social types will try to monopolise it as you see at Whitby and other places.  As for background intrusions - that is down to you negotiating with the people you are shooting to pose in front of the background you want... why should we make it easy for the papps?

Hope that helps.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

PHOTOGRAPHY POLICY - An individual photographer attending the event?

Weekend at the Asylum is of course a very photogenic event with well dressed people and historic backdrops. This page is of guidelines if you want to take photographs or film at the event. Many people are happy to have their photograph taken but some people prefer to be left alone. You must ask before you take a picture. Remember there is only one rule in steampunk BE POLITE!!!

Other than official VSS photographers and people with a VSS Press Pass pictures may only be taken for non commercial use. You can share them through Flickr etc and indeed we have a flickr group for Asylum photos. Please also include them there. Photographs may not be used in publications or sold without a release form being signed by all people in the photograph. A copy of this release must be filed with the VSS prior to publication. Failure to register a release makes the photographer liable to a fee of £500 per image which will be paid to a charity of our choice. ALL photographs (amateur and professional) are permitted on condition that copies are supplied to the people in the pictures free of charge for their own use. Photographers are of course free to visit Lincoln during the weekend but may not enter event areas without the appropriate participant's pass. (Visit the tickets portal to buy your passes.) If you wish to attend the ball to take pictures then please note the dress code is formal and you may be turned away if you are inappropriately dressed.



SUMMARY
•All photographers accept the terms and conditions laid down here.
•BE POLITE. If people do not want to be in a picture respect their privacy.
•VSS Official press pass photographers only are permitted to take pictures for publication/sale.
•Pictures may be shared free of charge through Flickr etc.
•ALL photographers agree to supply copies free of charge to people in photographs.
•Anyone without advance permission to publish or sell a picture agrees to pay £500 per image which the VSS will donate to our chosen charities.
•Dress codes must be observed.
•Admission is as per participants only.
•Instructions of VSS staff and stewards must be complied with at all times.

[Rt Hon Septabarius Cogge]

Begging your pardon Mr Tinker sir, but I have to say (and I hope it doesn't get me placed on detention or confined to the naughty corner  ) that I always am amused when you say "there is only one rule in steampunk: be polite" and then go on to list a whole lot more ... 

[Augustus Longeye]

Ah, but it's not for the Steampunks that the rules are made
~Longeye~

[TimeTinker]

Begging your pardon Mr Tinker sir, but I have to say (and I hope it doesn't get me placed on detention or confined to the naughty corner  ) that I always am amused when you say "there is only one rule in steampunk: be polite" and then go on to list a whole lot more ...  

I can't see where I have listed any rules for steampunks other than be polite?

Would you care to elaborate?

Terms and conditions for a specific event or feature are hardly rules for steampunks.  They are simply how we comply corporately with the restrictions placed upon us by the local council, landlords, licensing authority, police, emergency planning committee, hoteliers association, HSE, English Heritage etc all of whom we have to liaise with to get the event to run.

I am afraid that without jumping through all of these hoops and indeed more placed there for us by the most important people - the steampunks attending (which is why we have the photography policy, as a response to the people attending) then the event simply would not exist.

Now I am not sure if you were trying to be fascetious or if you really can't see the difference.

Clarification from you would be appreciated.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

Mr Cogge, it is never safe to poke a bear with a stick, it only annoys the bear and ends with the stick being stuck where the sun doesn't shine*

The Asylum imposes one rule on its Members, it's everybody else imposing THEIR rules on The Asylum, as they would impose them on everyone, as The Asylum doesn't get special treatment or exemption from the petty bureaucrats and lawyers. Trust me I know about petty bureaucrats and lawyers like I know myself. We have the various venues at the sufferance of their owners and the regulatory authorities, not as of right. As guests we are bound to act with proper decorum.

All other policies are merely iterations of the one rule, in different situations.



*Rotherham I believe, not at all pleasant for the stick.

[Aethera Verdigris]

Okay, I've finally, finally, finally done the decent thing and posted my photos of Asylum 2011 to my Flickr account for everyone to see.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22890179@N07/sets/72157630432958102/
I'm having trouble finding the Asylum group page for 2011 though, can anyone help? Also any helping naming those featured would be great.
Please note non of these images have been published elsewhere and I have not tried to sell them commercially - indeed at all!

All the best,
Janboreeni

PS. If you want a high res jpeg of yourself via email or if you don't want your image on the internet please let me know.
I will also put this message over on the British Steampunk Community FB page.

[Grumfoss]

Okay, I've finally, finally, finally done the decent thing and posted my photos of Asylum 2011 to my Flickr account for everyone to see.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22890179@N07/sets/72157630432958102/
I'm having trouble finding the Asylum group page for 2011 though, can anyone help? Also any helping naming those featured would be great.
Please note non of these images have been published elsewhere and I have not tried to sell them commercially - indeed at all!

All the best,
Janboreeni

PS. If you want a high res jpeg of yourself via email or if you don't want your image on the internet please let me know.
I will also put this message over on the British Steampunk Community FB page.

Great set of photos, It brings it all back, lets hope it will be as good this year

[Wilhelmina Frame]

just for "color" commentary, we have similar problems in the US. My worst experiences have been at Sunday in the Park, a heritage day at Atlanta's historic cemetery. I have never had so many people be rude and literary on top of me without permission. It is also an event that, while many people dress in costume or historical garbs, is not necessarily about exhibitionism of the individual, which somehow makes it more annoying.

[frances]

I practised being polite at the Chap Olympics.  I was awfully nice when I asked multiple photographers with huge lenses not to stand infront of sitting people.  They all gave excuses but moved away within a reasonable time.  Success.

I then had to explain to the public that I was doing it on a point of principle, and no thank you, it was kind of them to offer up their seat but I did not need it.

 hehehe.

[Fat Spider]

Having just joined this forum I was surprised to discover this thread so early in my browsing.

May I take the opportunity to respond to the original post.

That particular article did raise some valid points with the problems of undesirable photographers who attend such events, as a photographer I have also witnessed rude and aggressive behaviour by other togs, and yes I have politely asked to take someones pic and had a dozen or more strangers barge in and start snapping, it upsets the model and it also spoils my shot because the model doesn't know where to look, I won't go on about other stuff I've seen or I'll be here forever.

Despite the valid points raised the article was let down by the journalistic approach of quoting out of context in order to spice up the story, I myself was one such victim having only the "juicy bits" of something I said printed (yes I made some facetious blokey comment about the length of a girls skirt ) the article was also let down by it's blatantly obvious hypocrisy, the writer making such a big deal about taking pictures without peoples permission but in the same story used other peoples copyrighted images without permission either, it wasn't until a contributor commended the writer on their photography skills that they owned up to using someone else's images

In a nutshell it was generally a good piece but let down by the points mentioned, but it did sum up the problems at the Whitby Goth weekend quite well.

As for large groups and Camera Clubs, yes they do take advantage of the wealth of photographic opportunities but many of them tend to disperse into smaller groups, what makes people think they are large groups is once again the problem of someone asking for a pic and others jumping in when the model poses, I usually meet with several others but we don't all hold hands all day

As for me, yes I ask permission before taking pictures, I usually give the model/s a card with my email with the offer of FREE copies, if a model has not had a card it's probably because I've not been able to get a decent shot due to the rabble that have jumped in as soon as the model poses   Not all photographers are morons!

And if you want to check out some of my pics you can look here: http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/alanchapman

[Fat Spider]

Its me again, I should apologise if the previous post sounded a little harsh (it sounds a little harsh to me in the cold light of day )

Anyway, a few tips for anyone who gets ticked off with Us Togs constantly shoving cameras up their noses (metaphorically speaking of course)

1) Ignore anyone who doesn't ask to take your picture, you are not the one being rude. OK there is no law (at least in the UK) to stop anyone pointing a camera at you in a public place, but there is no law that says you have to stop and pose for them either.
2) If you do stop to let someone take your pic and others dive in at the opportunity then don't give them the benefit of eye contact, just keep your eyes on the Tog that you posed for and when he/she has finished approach them and ask to see the image/s (assuming they're shooting digital) that will also get you out of standing around while the hangers on also get their snaps, remember again you are not being rude by ignoring the other photographers who have not had the courtesy to ask.
3)Always ask for the photographers card or give them yours, you can even ask if there are any free pics forthcoming when they first ask to take your picture, definitely tell them to get lost if they refuse.
4)Don't let Togs talk you into going out of your way for their pictures, moving a few yards for a more pleasing background or better position for the light should be enough, especially if your getting free pics out of it.
5) If you really don't want your picture taking then be firm and say no, any decent Tog will understand that at such an event you are probably getting tired of it.

UK Law: as mentioned there is no law against anyone taking pictures of you in a public place, that doesn't mean to say you have no rights, you still have personal space and you could also be protected under the harassment laws if an individual pesters you too much. If anyone wants further clarification drop me a PM.

[vampyresheep]

I don't think you were too harsh, in fact its good to see the discussion from the opposite perspective.  Particularly from a photographer whom, I gather, actually has an interest in the scene rather than just making use of it as interesting subject matter.

Yes, the original article is a tad one-sided, however aren't most articles and it did make me want to look into it further (and I did come across several of the camera club forums referred to and read for myself the more derogatory comments taken in fuller context).  As i commented originally, I never really gave it a second thought about what happened to images after they were taken ...  as a result of this awareness, I discovered that an image taken of my partner was entered into a competition without us having been asked for consent!  And this was from one of the allegedly "good lot" of photographers; she had our email address and should at least have had the decency to let us know.
Hence that was my reason for posting the article here, to raise awareness of something we can tend to take for granted when flattered by someone asking for our photo.  Didn't expect it to turn out to such a debate, which in all honesty, I thought went somewhat overboard!

There are good and bad 'togs (as there are with all types of people!) and I guess having worked in the industry myself, I admittedly am probably slightly cynical about Camera Club photographers in general, as they used to be our nightmare "know-it-all" customers at my old workplace!  I'm sure you're not all like that 

Whilst I'm not the happiest about how I look in photos, as someone who makes most of my own clothes, I do like to have decent photographs taken when given the chance; so as long as someone is polite and non-intrusive (and ideally part of the scene, so they have some understanding about what we are about!) I am happy to pose for a photo.

However, it might be a slight niggle, but I do have a slight issue about the word "model" being used for us.  Maybe it is just a generic term amongst photographers and shouldn't be taken too seriously; for me that just emphasises the implication that we're only dressed as we are for the photographers' benefit - in my eyes, a model is someone who is specifically hired and paid to be photographed; as opposed to a general passerby whom you think would make an interesting photo.

[Fat Spider]

I do have a slight issue about the word "model" being used for us.

It is just a generic photographic term that is not exclusive to someone that is paid, I could have used "subject" if you'd prefer.

As for putting stuff into competitions without asking that's a grey area, I would agree that it would be cheeky to do it to win something (cash or prize etc) but I think you'll find the majority of club Togs simply enter into club competitions where the only thing their likely to win will need polishing for a year, I know I've done it myself (my wife loves polishing silver...not )

I like to think of myself as one of the good guys, I really am a nice person, at least my mum said I was

PS: if someone takes a picture of you*, even with your permission and then uses it commercially they are in the wrong, they still need your consent in writing, ie a model release form.

*that's as the main subject and you been easily recognisable and not just part of a general scene.

[Rt Hon Septabarius Cogge]

Mr Cogge, it is never safe to poke a bear with a stick, it only annoys the bear and ends with the stick being stuck where the sun doesn't shine*

I was assuming the bear in question still had a sense of humour :-)

[Rt Hon Septabarius Cogge]

Clarification from you would be appreciated.

Begging your pardon for not replying sooner, I'd forgotten about this comment of mine!

Sorry, I was mistaking the terms and conditions and other guidelines for rules. My mistake. May I come out of the naughty corner now?   

[TimeTinker]

May I come out of the naughty corner now?   

Of course not.  We expect you to wander around The Asylum wearing a placard saying "I have been a very naughty boy" 

For information our notices at the Castle read:

Steampunk & Photography
Whilst the Castle is open to the public it is not "public space" within the meaning of UK law.
Would photographers please note that permission to photograph people attending the Steampunk festival is explicitly withheld. If you would like to photograph steampunks please have the courtesy to ask first. Be polite and show respect and many people will be happy to pose for you. Harrassment etc is not acceptable.
Thank you. Your polite conduct is appreciated.

And we have cards which can be handed to photographers who are being less than pleasant:

Photography & Steampunk.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Steampunk is very photogenic but unfortunately some photographers have proven to be a nuisance in the past.
The festival is a private event. All venues (whilst they may be open to the public) are NOT public spaces under Law.
Please simply show respect and be polite.  Ask before you take your pictures. Most people will be happy to pose for you. 
Harrassment is not  acceptable.
Commercial use of images without a signed model release is expressly prohibited.

Whilst it is a very difficult situation and the objectionable minority spoil it for the majority we endeavour to do the best that we can for the steampunks attending the event.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

More than happy to legally pursue any persistent photographers. It just so happens I will be bringing along suitable implements for the purpose to The Asylum.

[Weasel]

Don't worry Steamchaps! I shall accidentally to ruin any shot I am in with my natural "looking like a bit of an idiot on film" powers.

That'll fox those pesky camera-jockeys! Make them think twice before tangling with Strangely Unphotogenic Man.

I am looking for a pucky sidekick by the way.

[Capt. Dirigible]

I am looking for a pucky sidekick by the way

A pucky side kick? How about this guy?

[Weasel]

That's exactly what I meant, exactly. As neither of us are photogenic.

[Rock Docktor]

I do have a slight issue about the word "model" being used for us.

It is just a generic photographic term that is not exclusive to someone that is paid, I could have used "subject" if you'd prefer.

As for putting stuff into competitions without asking that's a grey area, I would agree that it would be cheeky to do it to win something (cash or prize etc) but I think you'll find the majority of club Togs simply enter into club competitions where the only thing their likely to win will need polishing for a year, I know I've done it myself (my wife loves polishing silver...not )

I like to think of myself as one of the good guys, I really am a nice person, at least my mum said I was

PS: if someone takes a picture of you*, even with your permission and then uses it commercially they are in the wrong, they still need your consent in writing, ie a model release form.

*that's as the main subject and you been easily recognisable and not just part of a general scene.

Only, a model release form has NO legal standing in the UK. The copyright ALWAYS lies with the tog.
I use MRF more as a statement of my good intentions, but if I take a photo, I have the right to publish it within the rules of the publisher (some competitions require a MRF) for example. Some publishers will insist on a MRF, but some will just publish without.

As for the OP, the law is on the togs side, despite what some police and security morons think.

So if someone takes a photo of you in public, you have NO right to say how it is used, or a slice of any money the photographer may or may not make from it.

That's not to say you should be harassed, but if a tog is using a zoom, and snapping you without your permission, so what? You are photographed hundreds of times every day by the state etc.

Sorry if this comes across as blunt, but I am a keen tog and enjoy sp too.

Rgds

RD

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

Normally the only control which exists is that the photo constitutes the personal data of the subject, if (and it is a big if) the photographer is a registered datacontroller then the Second Data Protection Principle applies, that the data is not used for a purpose for which it was not originally intended.

However whilst this might apply for a school photo, or a work ID photo,  photography in this context will be a "special purpose" journalistic, artistic literary, meaning in most circumstances exempt from the main protection provisions of the DPA under the section 32 exemption.

Basically even if a registered data controller the photographer can use it as they wish, you will not be able to get copies and you will not be able to block this due to damage and distress.

A model release form may constitute a contract, it will depend upon the form used and the circumstances of its use.

[ladyelsie]

''That's not to say you should be harassed, but if a tog is using a zoom, and snapping you without your permission, so what?''

This is quite a rude attitude to take, and is not Splendid at all. Some togs are polite and always ask and offer to email copies to the subject/models. This is splendid behavior.

[Rock Docktor]

I agree, and think it is polite to offer shots for time in such a contex. And that is how I would conduct myself. I was just pointing out that the op doesn't have a right to such photos, or how hey are used. I was also pointing out that a model release is not legally required either. However, being polite and respectful is a desirable trait and should be encouraged in togs and models alike.

But if a tog is using a zoom, he is unlikely to be invading your personal space, so he is unlikely to speak to you first if he is after candid shots. We just have to learn to be polite and all get along.

Kind Rgds

RD

[TimeTinker]

With regards to publication of photographs in newspapers, magazines etc both print and electronic the PCC Code of Practice Applies.

Section 3 Privacy

i) Everyone is entitled to respect for his or her private and family life, home, health and correspondence, including digital communications.
 
ii) Editors will be expected to justify intrusions into any individual's private life without consent. Account will be taken of the complainant's own public disclosures of information.
 
iii) It is unacceptable to photograph individuals in private places without their consent.
 
Note - Private places are public or private property where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Model release forms are usually requested by editors as evidence that the COP right to privacy has been respected.

Some newspapers do not have MRFs but ask the subject for their name and age - the implication is that by giving a name and age (the photographer does not have the legal right to this information) you are giving tacit consent.

Please note this is not law as such since it is a code of practice but you can complain to the PCC and as a private individual you should have a very very strong case against the publication and the PCC is likely to find in your favour.

Oh and if someone says "public interest" as a defence remember this is NOT the same as "interesting to the public"