Photographers at Asylum and Whitby etc

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

That's tarring them all with the same brush of course, but...

[/quote]

No, you can't do that either

The problem is that sashes etc ruins the ensemble.

[andrew craven]

Mr Peter Harrow esq is right on all acounts! Its something we have to live with!

 To explain freakery....you guys who responded passionately against the use of the word are right in what you explain about "your own perception" indeed. I can only admire you for it! But from the mainstream view point...that makes the majority....no matter if your sub cultural or foreign cultural, your still considered a freak or alien to that mind's eye! Its unfortunate indeed that such a perception still exists in our society today but this is life alas...the outre dressers are always seen as freaks! But does the word freak or alien have to be a negative word for us? Because we enjoy in being freaks...I certainly do from many personal experiences and ideals! I can openly accept the fact that I am a freak because when I see the plain and mainstream dressers I feel as though I dont understand why sometimes...and that I could never not wear what I wear in contrast to them that they may have their judgements or convictions on me for dressing in the way I want to dress!

 Freedom of wearing clothes, freedom of expression, freedom of creating art even if it does depict people including steampunks...the freedom to take pictures with a camera! Did the earlier Victorian daguerreotype photographers ask their subjects in public permission...if that is to pique a steampunker's interest and reason!?

[Rockula]

I think we're all talking at cross purposes here.

There's the occasional interested bystander or passer by who takes a quick snap as you pass and that is to be expected. And when a little kid wants to have a picture with the Steampunk to show to friends then this early interest should be fostered and encouraged as long as it's not disrupting your activity.

I, however, do object to photographers who expect you to stop what you're doing and pose and become rude when you refuse. As in 'I'm sorry, I'm in the middle of eating my dinner..' (True).

I would also strongly object to my image being sold or used in promotions where I was not asked for, nor did not give my permission or recieve an offer of payment or at least some form of credit.

I am not your product.

[Evelyn Adler]

I am still trying to understand the legal side of it.
In Germany, if someone takes a photo of me for private purposes, for example if I'm in a holiday snapshot, that is ok. But if that photo is intended to be published in any way for newspaper, competitions etc., the photographer needs my written consent that he may use my image, otherwise I can sue (or stop him to use the picture at least). With the exception, were I a 'person of public interest', politician, musician, actor or the like, they may not need my permission.

I have no problem with photographers snapping the occasional picture, as long as they don't become a pain in the posterior. But I don't feel comfortable with my image being used for publications without my consent.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

Mr Craven you have misinterpreted my position, I am all for the protection of abuse of ones likeness, and of intellectual property in all forms. I am against extra-legal action by steampunks against photographers, as much as the extra-legal action of photographers in harassing steampunks.

What I may suggest is the generation of a pro forma Letter Before Action, informing the recipient that their actions may if repeated constitute an act of harassment under the 1997 Act, and that their picture has been taken and that upon re-occurrence this will result in civil legal action.  It should be possible to put on a card.

Steampunks can have these about their person to provide to errant shutterbugs. It is both legal and polite.

Evelyn it is the European Data Directive which applies to the UK and Germany, but the implementation into domestic law differs. In both cases it is personal data but the personal use exemption applies if it's for a private club or hobby, no registration is required and data subject rights do not apply. Anyone using this for a business would be a registered datacontroller and subject to regulation law. The UK law is very loosely drafted, the German is much better drafted, and clearer in application.

[Augustus Longeye]

Now I don't know most of this fancy legal stuff, but going on what Mr. Harrow (who does!) is saying;
Perhaps put up a web page of "Photographers Etiquette" including some basic tips on politeness and "no means no", and then have a section (as mentioned above) on the 1997 act.
Then you can have business cards with a tiny summary and a link to the website, so that people who want them can hand them out to photographers as they see fit.
I must admit; if it were my image taken without my consent to be SOLD without my consent I would be furious! Lucky for me I can join the !ugly as sin" club
~Longeye~

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

I will have a word with the Major and see whether we could do that. this would be for the benefit of the inmates.

I would however also suggest photo sessions for photo clubs registering with the VSS allowing for the poseurs (you know who you are) to have their picture taken by a good photographer, in the knowledge that a degree of control could be exercised over its re-use.  fir example a steam croquet photoshoot, punknuc hotoshoot etc. This will please the responsible and help identify the irresponsible, but would require stewarding.

[bicyclebuilder]

I've been following this thread for a while now. I'm not shure if we can find a good outcome for both SP and photographers, but I'll give it a try.

Why not make the events enclosed, sort of like members only? You can create an area for "mixed" people and a seperate area for the "in" crowd. Problem is, who's in, who's out? You can sell it to the photographers as:"it's a LARP. It effects the game when you run around taking pictures"

As for photographers who unasked take pictures and make profit from those pictures: You would only know if they are making a porfit, after the damage is done. To reverse it would be a legal battle, different to sercomstances and country. What you can do is ask politely and interested for their buisiness card. After you get the card, you say:"I'll be watching your work for any pictures of me or my attire. If I see a picture, I'll sue you."

I'm trying to find similar occasions where photographers and participants of an event, live in harmony. Car shows, are made to see and be seen. Sport events, are mostly legally bound for using pictures as a profit, unless specifically granted. Parades, participants aren't really bothered with photographers. The encounter is mearly short and there is a natural border bitween them. Participants are moving, photographers are more or less stationairy.

There must be a creative way to keep both parties happy.

[Mimsy Beaucoup]

The problem for making an event closed is that you do not attract new 'members' and it stops the public looking at stalls. I know, especially at whitby there are many who have comeover to the 'brown' side and indeed many who enjoy both genres. If i were a stall holder there i would be annoyed that hundreds had been denied entry to look at my stall. It is different at the asylum, where this year stalls are ticket only as it is only a SP event. SP markets in general would be silly to close their doors to non SP people. The issue really is the rude people who snap you, often very close to your face... Or in my and many other ladies experience, cleavage. A friend once suggested we carry a fan with the words 'F you' on it- but that would be rude!

As a polite genre in general, we don't want to come across as rude and to an extent whether some see it as a lifestyle or a hobby, if you dress unusually, you will get pictures taken of you. Personally I like being asked and I will pose happily but I often turn my back if I see a lurker taking pictures.

I too would be furious if someone was making money off my image- the narcissist in me would be more unhappy if it was a rotten picture of me! Lol! Seriously, this has been an issue over and over again- I remember a discussion where a goth couple had children who were photographed and it was being sold as a postcard.

Current the WGW crowd are planning to put up signs about asking first.

Ultimately there is nothing we can do as it is not illegal to take pictures or use them/ sell them.

[andrew craven]

In my experience, steampunk is not entirely a polite subcultural genre. And I know none steampunks as well as steampunks who would confirm that if that would become an issue in itself! But taking liberties away from photographers and spoiling it for those who have the common decency to ask for you to pose for them would be rash! Such "safe guards", if you like, to regulate photography would be an ode to the inherent conservatism and snobbery that would be the weakness of this subculture's reputation! I have found Goths to be more polite and reasonable than steampunks when all said and done. If I was you guys, I wouldnt meddle with such affairs! If a photographer was being naughty you tell him to go away or if you wish complain to the staff! The others, that I am confident are the polite ones, are to be treated fairly...yes I would or no thank you I may catch you later sort of reply, thats all it takes...or engage in a chat...which ever modus operandi you take up! But swinging on the law about it is not going to look good with political correctness, especially when one hails this culture as a polite one which to my mind a phrase that discredits other subcultures, that is very inpolite! Now is this the sort of politeness you articulate with its flawed characteristics?

 Everyone has their ways to address others in general society, it would be rude to take away the previlege of practicing such graces and thus making an event a dry one with esoteric rules!

[Unsubtle Pete]

I will have a word with the Major and see whether we could do that. this would be for the benefit of the inmates.

I would however also suggest photo sessions for photo clubs registering with the VSS allowing for the poseurs (you know who you are) to have their picture taken by a good photographer, in the knowledge that a degree of control could be exercised over its re-use.  fir example a steam croquet photoshoot, punknuc hotoshoot etc. This will please the responsible and help identify the irresponsible, but would require stewarding.

That is a rather good idea. Some of us quite like being photographed, as long as the photographers are civil about it, so that way the photographers can be cunningly distracted by giving what they want - posers*


*of which I am one 

[The Corsair]

In my experience, steampunk is not entirely a polite subcultural genre. And I know none steampunks as well as steampunks who would confirm that if that would become an issue in itself! But taking liberties away from photographers and spoiling it for those who have the common decency to ask for you to pose for them would be rash! Such "safe guards", if you like, to regulate photography would be an ode to the inherent conservatism and snobbery that would be the weakness of this subculture's reputation! I have found Goths to be more polite and reasonable than steampunks when all said and done. If I was you guys, I wouldnt meddle with such affairs! If a photographer was being naughty you tell him to go away or if you wish complain to the staff! The others, that I am confident are the polite ones, are to be treated fairly...yes I would or no thank you I may catch you later sort of reply, thats all it takes...or engage in a chat...which ever modus operandi you take up! But swinging on the law about it is not going to look good with political correctness, especially when one hails this culture as a polite one which to my mind a phrase that discredits other subcultures, that is very inpolite! Now is this the sort of politeness you articulate with its flawed characteristics?

 Everyone has their ways to address others in general society, it would be rude to take away the previlege of practicing such graces and thus making an event a dry one with esoteric rules!

Please calm down Andrew, nobody's arguing with you here

[andrew craven]

In my experience, steampunk is not entirely a polite subcultural genre. And I know none steampunks as well as steampunks who would confirm that if that would become an issue in itself! But taking liberties away from photographers and spoiling it for those who have the common decency to ask for you to pose for them would be rash! Such "safe guards", if you like, to regulate photography would be an ode to the inherent conservatism and snobbery that would be the weakness of this subculture's reputation! I have found Goths to be more polite and reasonable than steampunks when all said and done. If I was you guys, I wouldnt meddle with such affairs! If a photographer was being naughty you tell him to go away or if you wish complain to the staff! The others, that I am confident are the polite ones, are to be treated fairly...yes I would or no thank you I may catch you later sort of reply, thats all it takes...or engage in a chat...which ever modus operandi you take up! But swinging on the law about it is not going to look good with political correctness, especially when one hails this culture as a polite one which to my mind a phrase that discredits other subcultures, that is very inpolite! Now is this the sort of politeness you articulate with its flawed characteristics?

 Everyone has their ways to address others in general society, it would be rude to take away the previlege of practicing such graces and thus making an event a dry one with esoteric rules!

Please calm down Andrew, nobody's arguing with you here

Nor am I...I am putting it to you guys as it is! Take it or leave it!

[marcus cudworth]

Reading this thread it made me quite sad to  think how steampunks are viewed by others outside the genre .The impression I feel that we would portay based on this thread  is one of pedantic reactanionaries making a mountain out of a mole hill as a means of increasing their own illfounded sense of self importance .By attempting to micro manage a subculture to a defined set of rules is a lost cause in my opinion .It would strangle the elements of fun and spontnanity .
Discusss .....................

[bicyclebuilder]

The whole discussion isn't a Steampunk issue or Photographer issue, it's a personal issue. Some people have to be more polite and some people have to be more tolerant.

I've mentioned car shows. My neighbour participates them frequently. Here are sometimes also conflicts bitween participants and photographers. Sometimes a bold photographer opens the door of a displayed car, without asking. It happens. How you deal with it, as Andrew Craven stated, is up to you.

If unwanted and rude people are frequently harrassing you, go to the people who organise the event. Again, technically and legally there isn't much more they can do, but a "higher autoraty" might stop the harrasing. The only way to avoid this ones and for all, is by excluding people. That's also not what we want, I guess.

As I said, there must be a creative way to keep everyone happy. Think positive.

[darkshines]

When I am out in public in my steamy or gothic gear, I do not mind people politely asking my permission to take a photo if I am doing something like walking down the street, or already having a photo taken etc. But at the first Asylum event, Mr C and I were sat in a cafe, stuffing our faces, and people were actually taking photographs THROUGH THE WINDOWS at us! THAT is an invasion of our priavcy. If I am swanning around Lincoln or anywhere else, and I do NOT want my picture taken, I usually carry a parasol, and turn my back on them. After a few such avoidences, they usually take the hint and either ask, or bugger off.

[Rt Hon Septabarius Cogge]

Bicyclebuilder is right - it's a personal issue. If you don't like your photo taken, don't say yes. If you haven't said yes, and someone still persists in taking your photo, ask them to stop. If you're not happy doing this at the moment, the onus is on you to learn how to do it (a good skill for everyday life anyway). It isn't someone else's problem (unless a law is being broken), it's yours.

Creating photo business cards and handing out forms, although presumably following the law and carefully considered in their wording, merely makes us all look stuffy and unfriendly (and every steward tasked with doing this runs the risk of creating argument and ill-feeling where, with a little restraint and common sense on both sides, none need exist).

There are plenty of nice, honest photographers out there, and to tar everyone with the same brush is to risk creating entirely the wrong image of steampunks. Wouldn't everyone rather we were seen as friendly and welcoming, and polite, not quasi-legal, up-tight, obstructive ... ?

Just my two penn'oth!

ps Just read Darkshine's post. I wouldn't like that either. That sort of situation is why, after going to Whitby and Lincoln, I give thanks for being a nobody in "normal" life (although, isn't Whitby normal and the rest of this stuff merely dream or nightmare?) ...

[Rockula]

When I am out in public in my steamy or gothic gear, I do not mind people politely asking my permission to take a photo if I am doing something like walking down the street, or already having a photo taken etc. But at the first Asylum event, Mr C and I were sat in a cafe, stuffing our faces, and people were actually taking photographs THROUGH THE WINDOWS at us! THAT is an invasion of our priavcy. If I am swanning around Lincoln or anywhere else, and I do NOT want my picture taken, I usually carry a parasol, and turn my back on them. After a few such avoidences, they usually take the hint and either ask, or bugger off.

This was the same event at which a photographer entered the restaurant and asked that we go outside and pose for him. I politely declined on the grounds that I was in the middle of actually eating my dinner. He became insistent and claimed I was being 'unhelpful'. I suggested, gently, that he stop bothering me or I would 'help' him on his way.
 This is the kind of photograher I object to, not the happy snappers or the many polite folk you meet who ask nicely, but the kind who believe that thier 'artistic freedoms' outweigh my right to my personal space and that I am somehow 'fair game' at all and any times.
 Polite requests will be considered and probably accepted but otherwise get out of my face.

[Capt. Dirigible]

I think the main bone of  contention here is not the actual taking of pictures (as you say we shouldn't tar all photographers with the same brush, many are very polite) it's what they do with the pictures afterwards.
The Countess, like many women, is self conscious about her appearance and doesn't want any photos of her posted anywhere on line without her vetting them first. Which is perfectly understandable. What may be a 'good photo' as far as the photographer is concerned  may be a 'ghastly photo' as far as she is concerned. Nowadays very few people are contented with just taking photos for their own entertainment/pleasure. With Social network sites, blogs, forums, personal websites, internet connected phones, i-pads etc etc. a bad photo can be halfway round the world less than an hour after it's been taken. And once out on the 'net there's very little anyone can do to  get it stopped or from it being used in all sorts of (possibly unscrupulous) ways.

[vampyresheep]

When I am out in public in my steamy or gothic gear, I do not mind people politely asking my permission to take a photo if I am doing something like walking down the street, or already having a photo taken etc. But at the first Asylum event, Mr C and I were sat in a cafe, stuffing our faces, and people were actually taking photographs THROUGH THE WINDOWS at us! THAT is an invasion of our priavcy. If I am swanning around Lincoln or anywhere else, and I do NOT want my picture taken, I usually carry a parasol, and turn my back on them. After a few such avoidences, they usually take the hint and either ask, or bugger off.

This was the same event at which a photographer entered the restaurant and asked that we go outside and pose for him. I politely declined on the grounds that I was in the middle of actually eating my dinner. He became insistent and claimed I was being 'unhelpful'. I suggested, gently, that he stop bothering me or I would 'help' him on his way.
 This is the kind of photograher I object to, not the happy snappers or the many polite folk you meet who ask nicely, but the kind who believe that thier 'artistic freedoms' outweigh my right to my personal space and that I am somehow 'fair game' at all and any times.
 Polite requests will be considered and probably accepted but otherwise get out of my face.

It was photographers/situations like this which I had issue with and how the manner in which we respond encourages them.  As I believe I mentioned before, a photographer approached us while we were having coffee outside the Asylum and asked for a photo.  Initially we agreed, thinking it was just a quick snap but no, he was expecting us to leave our coffee and conversation to go with him to a more photogenic location.  I refused, however the friends we were with (mentioning no names!) did agree to go with him – I’ve discussed this with the friends in question since and they don’t see anything wrong in this as they were flattered to be asked.  Whereas I saw it as an ill mannered intrusion on the photographers part and them agreeing to go would just encourage him  to do that again.

I think all the discussion about signs, sashes and forms etc is a bit OTT and would give a “holier than thou” impression of us all.   However I just feel a little common sense is needed -  that if steampunks continue to agree to photographers more intrusive requests, they will continue to see us as “models” and think that’s what we are there for.  I can fully understand that the general public see us as a curiosity and therefore understandable that they want to take snaps; however I do have concerns about the various Camera Clubs bandying the term “model” around when talking about steampunks and Goths – as evidently that’s how they see us, unpaid models who just dress up  to be photographed.

[andrew craven]

 I had a wee thought if a photographer's request required you to trondle off to some other more photogenic location. Take it to your advantage. I would haggle...get the wouldbe snapper to buy me an icecream if I had to move away from where I was. Or haggle for a pint...now we're talking...see if we got our own way afterall

[frances]

I'm occasionally in costumed processions through the streets and am really happy to be photographed.  But I was in one recently and the photographer pushed his way infront of me as I was walking along and stuck his camera right up into my face!  As I had a musical instrument stuck in my mouth at the time and I know I make faces as I concentrate and play, I thought that it would have been an awful picture.  But I was horrified by this action.  How dare he get in the way of the proceedings! and spoil it for other people too.

When it is obviously commercial - giant lens, posh tripod, notebook in hand, I ask where they are from, what the photograph will be used for and, depending, ask for a fee to cover my PLI insurance.  That always puts them off.

If I want a copy of the pic I ask for their details and contact them afterwards myself.  Sometimes if they look nice I ask them to also take a pic of me with my camera.  Noone has ever refused this request.

[Esme Moore]

Personally, I think it boils down to politeness. Anyone regarding others as 'a freak show' devoid of feelings that may be upset or hurt is, in my opinion, in severe need of help in order to gain some empathy and manners so that they might join decent society.  Or prosecution, as circumstances warrant.  Likewise anyone regarding others as simply being there for their convenience.  Yes, such people exist, and one does, sensibly, need to be mindful of this, but taking the stance that, essentially,  decent folk should put up and shut up simply because the other sort exist isn't any more rational than expecting everyone to be nice all the time.

Being interesting-looking in someone else's opinion does not automatically mean one should lose ones right to privacy any more than finding someone's appearance strange gives one a right to mock them in public.  They're both aspects of the same thing, regarding others as objects of entertainment rather than being human beings with feelings.   Go the wrong way down that particular road and you end up burning lonely old women for fun simply because they look odd and like cats.

I'd remind some here, too, that what Steampunk means to each of us and why we call ourselves Steampunks and enjoy going to Steampunk events varies from person to person.  I suspect that there is an unwonted impression, in some circles, that all Goths/Steampunks/(insert sub-culture of choice here) dress differently because they are all extroverts and want to show themselves off and be photographed. Maybe it's just the people I know, but a lot of the Goths, and a fair few of the Steampunks I know are in fact introverts.  For some, at least, the subculture they're in isn't about dressing up for special occasions, it's about self-expression, it's about being part of a group where they feel they can be themselves rather than being shoe-horned into some niche others  expect or demand them to be in.  Whether or not anyone feels happy about their picture being taken has nothing whatsoever to do with whichever subsection(s) of society that they belong to, and so to blithely assume that because someone is dressed differently to the norm automatically means they are a camera whore shows a shocking lack of understanding, empathy and regard for other human beings, in my opinion.

Good manners never offend, and good photographers know this. The other kind should be rebuffed and educated (where possible) in the benefits and value of good manners.

[Aethera Verdigris]

I find myself in a bit of a quandary here in that I am a steampunk, but I also enjoy my photography and as such I like to take my rather chunky and obvious DSLR with me to events.
Last year was my first experience of The Asylum and I have to admit I thoroughly enjoyed capturing all the awe-inspiring finery on display. Myself, I went as 'generic steampunk woman' being fairly new to it all then and the thought crossed my mind that I might be perceived as being a photographer-in-disguise. I observed the rule to ask first and being the kind people you all are, you happily obliged - though towards the end of Saturday afternoon I detected most of my victims were getting tired of being snapped.
One incident I recall was a lady in fabulous pilot costume (I was so envious - dammit) with extending canvas wings. She was more than happy to pose for me with wings in and out, but I suddenly found myself jostled aside by a large group of public men all shooting away and demanding she should stand various ways for them.

So here I find myself looking at this from two perspectives....

As an amateur photographer I found The Asylum a deeply wonderful place to pursue my hobby, but in general I find natural, un-posed shots are often the best. Trying to be polite of course meant I couldn't just snap people randomly in this case, yet I quickly discovered a lot of steampunks would 'get into character' for me automatically - I have some very theatrical images. With regard to those photos though I have to admit they are still residing on my hard-drive unseen by anyone, and this is often the case with a lot of amateur photographers. I think I will use this confession as a spur to get them on Flickr and post a link here if no-one minds - you will be welcome to download them as you wish or tell me to remove them if you prefer. I make no claim to being good at it, but I try.

As a steampunk the Asylum incident I cited above was downright rude. I was the one who asked her for her photo, yet after she'd been mauled by the paparazzi, I bet she wish she hadn't bothered for me. I can completely sympathise with anyone who was similarly treated.

One thing that did bother me (photographer head on here) was the intrusion of the real world in my shots, litter, cars, street furniture etc; yet I think this may also present a solution for this thread. I think someone mentioned something similar earlier but how about having a designated area for photography? Ideally somewhere with a suitable backdrop so that the more confident of us (steampunk head now) can provide fodder for the snap-happy.

Would this work?

[Aethera Verdigris]

On a lighter note, if anyone knows how to make my DLSR less "chunky and obvious" I'd be delighted to know. I'm not talking of turning it into a stealth camera for covert SP shooting, but a way of punking it up so it's more in keeping with my outfit.