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Question: Do you mind the use of decorative gears?
yes - 11 (28.9%)
no - 27 (71.1%)
Total Voters: 35

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Author Topic: A Heated (sort of) Debate (topic)  (Read 1939 times)
Tower
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« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2012, 11:27:41 pm »

Quote
After all, this all make believe. It seems to me that to be obsessed with "keeping it real" is a bit silly imho.

If you make something that is actually a working device how is that make believe?

If you use your imagination to create a real physical object that is exactly what is appears to be then is that make believe? or is that just making?

The way I practice steampunk requires no belief at all other than in reality. You don't have to pretend my hand cannon is a gun, all you have to do is pull the trigger, feel the recoil and watch the target get slammed by 3/4" lead slug.  I didn't have to pretend anything when I made it or when I use it. (although having a story in your head is a good way to keep your work consistent)

If you wear a corset covered in gears and a top hat do you have to make believe that you are a victorian living in an alternate history?  Haven't you actually created a part of that alternate history by what you've just done?

I guess this is the big schism in steampunk, is it just a fantasy and are we just part time actors? or are we eccentrics living our lives?

I for one completely dismiss make believe except for entertainment, ie books, theater, etc.  I keep it real, because it is. There is a term for people who don't believe in reality.
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D.Oakes
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« Reply #76 on: February 29, 2012, 06:41:58 am »

Quote
After all, this all make believe. It seems to me that to be obsessed with "keeping it real" is a bit silly imho.

If you make something that is actually a working device how is that make believe?

If you use your imagination to create a real physical object that is exactly what is appears to be then is that make believe? or is that just making?

The way I practice steampunk requires no belief at all other than in reality. You don't have to pretend my hand cannon is a gun, all you have to do is pull the trigger, feel the recoil and watch the target get slammed by 3/4" lead slug.  I didn't have to pretend anything when I made it or when I use it. (although having a story in your head is a good way to keep your work consistent)

If you wear a corset covered in gears and a top hat do you have to make believe that you are a victorian living in an alternate history?  Haven't you actually created a part of that alternate history by what you've just done?

I guess this is the big schism in steampunk, is it just a fantasy and are we just part time actors? or are we eccentrics living our lives?

I for one completely dismiss make believe except for entertainment, ie books, theater, etc.  I keep it real, because it is. There is a term for people who don't believe in reality.

Eccentric living my life here.   Grin

After going through some very rough patches in my life, the reality of steampunk gave me an outlet that simply doing a painting could never accomplish. 

Why have a fantasy that you can never touch when you can actually make a piece of it?   
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Frolicking Johnson
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« Reply #77 on: February 29, 2012, 03:47:53 pm »

Quote
After all, this all make believe. It seems to me that to be obsessed with "keeping it real" is a bit silly imho.

If you make something that is actually a working device how is that make believe?

If you use your imagination to create a real physical object that is exactly what is appears to be then is that make believe? or is that just making?

The way I practice steampunk requires no belief at all other than in reality. You don't have to pretend my hand cannon is a gun, all you have to do is pull the trigger, feel the recoil and watch the target get slammed by 3/4" lead slug.  I didn't have to pretend anything when I made it or when I use it. (although having a story in your head is a good way to keep your work consistent)

If you wear a corset covered in gears and a top hat do you have to make believe that you are a victorian living in an alternate history?  Haven't you actually created a part of that alternate history by what you've just done?

I guess this is the big schism in steampunk, is it just a fantasy and are we just part time actors? or are we eccentrics living our lives?

I for one completely dismiss make believe except for entertainment, ie books, theater, etc.  I keep it real, because it is. There is a term for people who don't believe in reality.

Wow, I never thought of it like that. Fascinating.
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Professor J. Cogsworthy
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« Reply #78 on: February 29, 2012, 04:59:39 pm »

I'm one of the grownups that never outgrew playing 'dress up' games and enjoying my imagination....

I choose where and how to limit myself in those 'games'.  Even if it is just me
choosing to play by someone else's rules that choice is still mine. I could have chosen a
different game.

I choose those limits because that makes the game a little more challenging and, for me,
more entertaining. I like having to think of a way to do things in spite of those limits.
It's a very complicated puzzle. I have to learn new things almost everytime I come up
with a new idea for a project.
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Bookgal1977
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« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2012, 04:11:12 am »

I suppose to me, I'm fairly live and let live.

I get whats wrong when one talks about selling something on ebay as "Just glue some gears on it and call it steampunk"  I find it silly too.

However, if I see some kid in salvation army finds, with a key on a chain (or a chain belt with many keys on it they hooked together..lol) and goggles on their hat at a con, I don't find myself thinking "Well that took all of five minutes to do". I find myself thinking "He looks like he's having a lot of fun"

I totally respect people who tinker. I get how challanging it is to figure out a working device, making gears that work in a new way, Ect. That takes a lot of dedication and learning and I think its awesome.

I used to do a lot of anime costuming for conventions, and one of the things that turned me off from it was a undercurrent of elistist thought. People who would take a photo of some kid obviously having a good time as a character and then picking it apart because it wasn't perfect, or it was obviously made from found peices rather than hand made. They seemed to miss the point that the person in the photo was obviously having fun and enjoyed the character.

Now, I dont mean to say that anyone on this thread has done that. They haven't. But I do get somewhat wary of folks that nitpick the cotume, or prop, or whetever to the point of forgetting that this is all supposed to be fun. I think that enjoyment should never take a back seat for nitpicking "Real" Steampunk, or cosplay, or whatever your interest is. Smiley
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ForestB
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« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2012, 04:41:06 am »

I suppose to me, I'm fairly live and let live.

I get whats wrong when one talks about selling something on ebay as "Just glue some gears on it and call it steampunk"  I find it silly too.

However, if I see some kid in salvation army finds, with a key on a chain (or a chain belt with many keys on it they hooked together..lol) and goggles on their hat at a con, I don't find myself thinking "Well that took all of five minutes to do". I find myself thinking "He looks like he's having a lot of fun"

I totally respect people who tinker. I get how challanging it is to figure out a working device, making gears that work in a new way, Ect. That takes a lot of dedication and learning and I think its awesome.

I used to do a lot of anime costuming for conventions, and one of the things that turned me off from it was a undercurrent of elistist thought. People who would take a photo of some kid obviously having a good time as a character and then picking it apart because it wasn't perfect, or it was obviously made from found peices rather than hand made. They seemed to miss the point that the person in the photo was obviously having fun and enjoyed the character.

Now, I dont mean to say that anyone on this thread has done that. They haven't. But I do get somewhat wary of folks that nitpick the cotume, or prop, or whetever to the point of forgetting that this is all supposed to be fun. I think that enjoyment should never take a back seat for nitpicking "Real" Steampunk, or cosplay, or whatever your interest is. Smiley





I have no problem with doing this when it's for yourself, but it's when people throw things together with no thought to sell to others for big bucks, then there can be a problem...
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Bookgal1977
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« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2012, 05:28:24 am »

I have no problem with doing this when it's for yourself, but it's when people throw things together with no thought to sell to others for big bucks, then there can be a problem...


Agreed completely. But then again, I wont buy something I'm looking at and thinking "Well if I want that I can make it myself just as easily...." in that case, I make it for myself. Even I can glue a few gears on.  Wink
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Argus Fairbrass
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So English even the English don't get it!


« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2012, 11:45:35 am »

Quote
After all, this all make believe. It seems to me that to be obsessed with "keeping it real" is a bit silly imho.


If you make something that is actually a working device how is that make believe?

If you use your imagination to create a real physical object that is exactly what is appears to be then is that make believe? or is that just making?

The way I practice steampunk requires no belief at all other than in reality. You don't have to pretend my hand cannon is a gun, all you have to do is pull the trigger, feel the recoil and watch the target get slammed by 3/4" lead slug.  I didn't have to pretend anything when I made it or when I use it. (although having a story in your head is a good way to keep your work consistent)

If you wear a corset covered in gears and a top hat do you have to make believe that you are a victorian living in an alternate history?  Haven't you actually created a part of that alternate history by what you've just done?

I guess this is the big schism in steampunk, is it just a fantasy and are we just part time actors? or are we eccentrics living our lives?

I for one completely dismiss make believe except for entertainment, ie books, theater, etc.  I keep it real, because it is. There is a term for people who don't believe in reality.


I've found myself thinking differently in terms of home building. I am actually trying to get my head around basic mechanics involving differentials and such. I don't personally have much of an interest in building props and I'm certainly no artist in the true sense. But building functional gadgets is definitely an aspiration. It is complicated however (people don't take degrees in this stuff for nothing)

Of course one of the problems in my country at least is all down to legalities. We can't even legally carry Kubotans here anymore. If I built a fully functioning weapon of pretty much any description. I would likely be arrested and possibly even shot if I started brandishing it around in public. At the very least it would most likely be confiscated.

I am aware that education in these matters would certainly prove useful if the shit hits the fan as it were. But as I say I'm not a cosplayer or LARP'er so I really have no outlet for prop weapon building. I'd like to pimp my guitar and amp rig however, in fact steamy stage gear in general would be cool. But rather than artifice and veneer I'm definitely more interested in the serious side of Steampunk building, and that of course it what really involves knowledge.

I find it both annoying and useful that the public face of Steampunk, (as largely presented by the media at least) really does mainly seem to reflect the geekcentric cosplay LARP'ey persona side of things. Don't get me wrong it has it's place, and that type of setting is it would appear where a large amount of the Steampunk sub culture has developed. Obviously it's very easy to poke fun at, which makes it seem all very safe and silly.

Joe Goes STEAMPUNK


Still it's possibly preferable that folks on the outside think we're all aspiring to nothing more than dressing up and being dorky at conventions (and if that is your only aspiration fair do's, these are merely observations not criticisms), than actually building things that could be threatening or allow for some kind of (God forbid) practical Independence.

I also realise that this mentality has been going on outside of SP for quite a while. And I assume that's partly why reenactors and folks who study and build historical gadgets and tech are attracted to it. As well as qualified tekky bods of various descriptions of course. But it's not surprising there is sometimes a clash in attitudes between people who are "keeping it real" and those for whom it really is just playing dress up and nothing more.

Personally I think there's room for everybody, but there may be a fundamental difference in aspirations.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 11:56:29 am by Argus Fairbrass » Logged

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Bookgal1977
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« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2012, 04:04:59 pm »

Quote from: Argus Fairbrass
Personally I think there's room for everybody, but there may be a fundamental difference in aspirations.


I think this is a beautiful way to put it. I for one am one of the geeky costuming, theatrical people, who really hasn't much interest in making devices for my everyday life. If that's your thing, you have my unending respect (and I think you're pretty darn cool!) but its not where my head is with this. I'm more the art/literature/theatrical/and yes geek end of it.

I think there's plenty of room for anyone who wants to take whatever part of steampunk culture appeals to them. I think the problem with the "Glue gears on it and sell it" mentality is that is shows a lack of respect for folks. And that's really what us all finding our niche in this is about. Someone who builds steampunk items to use around the house can still respect my enjoyment of steampunk stories and costuming and prop making. I don't have to want to build a functional steampunk computer to respect the person who DOES do that.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 04:14:27 pm by Bookgal1977 » Logged
Bookgal1977
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« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2012, 04:11:20 pm »

I guess this is the big schism in steampunk, is it just a fantasy and are we just part time actors? or are we eccentrics living our lives?


I think personally this isn't a schism. Because I believe there is room for everyone to think of this in any way they like. Do you want to be an actor who dresses for a con? Do you want to be an eccentric? Do you just like the read a good steampunk story? Do you want to write your own? Do you like to admire a youtube video of a beautiful steam powered working kettle someone made on-line, or do you want to figure out how to make that yourself? All of these things to me are valid. I don't see any need to have a schism. All we have to do is respect each others interests, and there is no schism.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 04:17:22 pm by Bookgal1977 » Logged
Hez
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« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2012, 10:01:31 pm »

And gears,functioning or otherwise, aren't required to look steampunk.  I don't think steampunk was the goal of this piece but I think it fits.
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