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Author Topic: The Great Ouija Keyboard (planning thread)  (Read 3160 times)
Lurker
Gunner
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2007, 06:23:58 am »

Did you find a good source of the sensors? What kind of pricing are you looking at?

-~D~-
I haven't gotten around to pricing them yet (I'll post where I find them as well as prices). The set up of the Cap'Touch sensors doesn't look to monstrous of a rig'job. So I might first try and build my own (I almost fear the burnt finger syndrum I no doubt will suffer). If that works I'll post the set up for others to see and critique, and if it doesn't I'll share that too so other can laugh at my folly.

Right now though I have still have this other job thats a little more important, but I'm still keeping this project up on my "To Do Board". The next step for me on this will be figuring out the right size and final layout of the board, then I can move on to picking the wood.
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Lurker
Gunner
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2007, 06:29:38 am »

Oops I forgot to add this in:
I decided to use wood for both the richness of colors, availability, and cost of working. So I figured that all the electronics inside the board will either be encased in a protective coating, or I'll have the inside of the Ouija Keyboard encased in plastic so the any moister that does get inside won't short out anything. (and yes I plan to varnish the outside for both protection and looks, but the Cap'touch sensors have to be protected differently then the wood board it's self)
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Datamancer
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2007, 07:03:13 am »

Did you find a good source of the sensors? What kind of pricing are you looking at?

-~D~-
I haven't gotten around to pricing them yet (I'll post where I find them as well as prices). The set up of the Cap'Touch sensors doesn't look to monstrous of a rig'job. So I might first try and build my own (I almost fear the burnt finger syndrum I no doubt will suffer). If that works I'll post the set up for others to see and critique, and if it doesn't I'll share that too so other can laugh at my folly.

Right now though I have still have this other job thats a little more important, but I'm still keeping this project up on my "To Do Board". The next step for me on this will be figuring out the right size and final layout of the board, then I can move on to picking the wood.

ok, cool. I just don't want you to get your heart broken if you find out they're like $4 apiece or something.
$4 x 107 keys = $428...ouch.

-~D~-
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“I'm not a paranoid deranged millionaire. Goddamit, I'm a billionaire.” - Howard Hughes
Lurker
Gunner
**

« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2007, 07:21:39 am »

The over all cost is something that I try to keep in mind (more so the closer to building the board I get), but since I'm just making the Ouija Keyboard for myself (really to see if I can) I don't mind the costs too much. That being said the point you bring up is important (the $ X Keys) It will get overly costly quick. That and my curious need to understand things is the reasoning behind wanting to try and build my own Cap'touch system.

I'm glad you brought that up though, so others can plan for those costs too (it seems like something obvious, but much like steam we sometimes forget it's really hot water)
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Lurker
Gunner
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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2007, 09:51:40 am »

ok, cool. I just don't want you to get your heart broken if you find out they're like $4 apiece or something.
$4 x 107 keys = $428...ouch.

-~D~-

I found this while looking for information on Cap'touch sensors:
The art of capacitive touch sensing
I'm hoping to use this to help me build my own (in conjunction with a few books I have), but I am looking for a way of buying them as well.

More information to follow.

This site has some kits and some great information on Cpa'touch senors (but the kits are pricey starting at $88USD)

cypress.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 10:01:27 am by Lurker » Logged
Offlogic
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« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2007, 01:32:23 pm »

Analog devices does a 14 input model http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD7142.pdf, and the Quantum Research QT60486 maxes out at 48 keys per chip http://www.qprox.com/products/qmatrix.php, available through Saelig http://www.saelig.com/miva/merchant.mvc?
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Datamancer
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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2007, 02:04:14 pm »

I'm thinking....you probably wouldn't even need a control IC. In this application, you're basically just taking the sensor and using it as a switch. It's not like a touchpad mouse or an ipod control ring where you actually need location coordinate data. The wiring should be a piece of cake too. You could just yank the IC from a regular keyboard and trace the...um...traces of the old membrane sheet to get the IC pinout then hook up the cap sensors as switches.

-~D~-
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Lurker
Gunner
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« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2007, 02:11:36 pm »

I'm thinking....you probably wouldn't even need a control IC. In this application, you're basically just taking the sensor and using it as a switch. It's not like a touchpad mouse or an ipod control ring where you actually need location coordinate data. The wiring should be a piece of cake too. You could just yank the IC from a regular keyboard and trace the...um...traces of the old membrane sheet to get the IC pinout then hook up the cap sensors as switches.

-~D~-
Thats kind of what I had in mind (except I was thinking about just creating the circit path that is mapped out on the membrane with suitable wiring, and then just wire it in to the stock circitboard)

I was thinking about just hiding the switches as part of the Alpha-Numeric set-up, instead of having to press the keys together. (Think touch sensitive lamp, rather then typical cheapo keyboard)
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Datamancer
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« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2007, 02:45:23 pm »

I'm thinking....you probably wouldn't even need a control IC. In this application, you're basically just taking the sensor and using it as a switch. It's not like a touchpad mouse or an ipod control ring where you actually need location coordinate data. The wiring should be a piece of cake too. You could just yank the IC from a regular keyboard and trace the...um...traces of the old membrane sheet to get the IC pinout then hook up the cap sensors as switches.

-~D~-
Thats kind of what I had in mind (except I was thinking about just creating the circit path that is mapped out on the membrane with suitable wiring, and then just wire it in to the stock circitboard)

I was thinking about just hiding the switches as part of the Alpha-Numeric set-up, instead of having to press the keys together. (Think touch sensitive lamp, rather then typical cheapo keyboard)

From my own keyboard modding experience, you might want to use a donor keyboard that's as old as you can find. Rather than using a modern USB keyboard, you might save yourself some headaches by using an older, PS2-plug keyboard, then using a USB adapter with it. The reason I say this is because the ICs in older keyboards are much larger than newer ones and are so much easier to solder to. The pins are nice and spread out...and quite sturdy. The overall size of the IC is still small enough to hide, though. The newer keyboards use mini-circuit-board with all micro-surface-mount components which are HELL to work with.

I know what you're saying with the keys...you just want a completely stealth setup where you just have to brush your fingertips across the letters on the faceplate to get a response, right?

What I was trying to say about tracing the membrane sheet was....ditch the sheet entirely and save the IC...but keep the membrane sheet around because you can use it to map out the connections into the IC.

The way the IC works is pretty simple...you might know all this already, Lurker, but let me explain anyway for the benefit of anyone else reading...you have two banks of pins, one on each side. Stored inside the chip is a table of information that maps connections to the pins. Basically its like...if you touch pins 1 and 12 together, you get a 'Q'....if you touch pins 5 and 23 together, you get a '7', etc. (pulled those numbers out of my ass, btw). If you look at the membrance sheet, you can actually trace the 2 lines from each key, back to the pins they are connected to, then you know how to wire up your switch to make that character. Some of them are shared, too. You're not likely to need to press 'scroll lock' and 'F8' at the same time, so those two keys might share a pin.

With the capacitance sensors...because you're just using it as a digital switch (on/off) and don't need any location data, it might wind up being just as simple as taking the positive wire and running it to one pin, and the negative to another pin...done (though you might possibly need to adjust the operating voltages with a resistor or two).

-~D~-
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Outa_Spaceman
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« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2007, 05:48:24 pm »

I'm thinking....you probably wouldn't even need a control IC. In this application, you're basically just taking the sensor and using it as a switch. It's not like a touchpad mouse or an ipod control ring where you actually need location coordinate data. The wiring should be a piece of cake too. You could just yank the IC from a regular keyboard and trace the...um...traces of the old membrane sheet to get the IC pinout then hook up the cap sensors as switches.

-~D~-
Thats kind of what I had in mind (except I was thinking about just creating the circit path that is mapped out on the membrane with suitable wiring, and then just wire it in to the stock circitboard)

I was thinking about just hiding the switches as part of the Alpha-Numeric set-up, instead of having to press the keys together. (Think touch sensitive lamp, rather then typical cheapo keyboard)

From my own keyboard modding experience, you might want to use a donor keyboard that's as old as you can find. Rather than using a modern USB keyboard, you might save yourself some headaches by using an older, PS2-plug keyboard, then using a USB adapter with it. The reason I say this is because the ICs in older keyboards are much larger than newer ones and are so much easier to solder to. The pins are nice and spread out...and quite sturdy. The overall size of the IC is still small enough to hide, though. The newer keyboards use mini-circuit-board with all micro-surface-mount components which are HELL to work with.

I know what you're saying with the keys...you just want a completely stealth setup where you just have to brush your fingertips across the letters on the faceplate to get a response, right?

What I was trying to say about tracing the membrane sheet was....ditch the sheet entirely and save the IC...but keep the membrane sheet around because you can use it to map out the connections into the IC.

The way the IC works is pretty simple...you might know all this already, Lurker, but let me explain anyway for the benefit of anyone else reading...you have two banks of pins, one on each side. Stored inside the chip is a table of information that maps connections to the pins. Basically its like...if you touch pins 1 and 12 together, you get a 'Q'....if you touch pins 5 and 23 together, you get a '7', etc. (pulled those numbers out of my ass, btw). If you look at the membrance sheet, you can actually trace the 2 lines from each key, back to the pins they are connected to, then you know how to wire up your switch to make that character. Some of them are shared, too. You're not likely to need to press 'scroll lock' and 'F8' at the same time, so those two keys might share a pin.

With the capacitance sensors...because you're just using it as a digital switch (on/off) and don't need any location data, it might wind up being just as simple as taking the positive wire and running it to one pin, and the negative to another pin...done (though you might possibly need to adjust the operating voltages with a resistor or two).

-~D~-
I did a similar mapping job on an Alesis Sequencer once... I replaced the crappy touch buttons with PTM switches... It was hard work mapping the IC... which I did on paper first... it worked though...
I want to make a board... cut the "buttons" out and attach them to PTM switches... (I wanted to see my plan written down so I could tell if it was coherent)
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Lurker
Gunner
**

« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2007, 11:35:46 pm »

From my own keyboard modding experience, you might want to use a donor keyboard that's as old as you can find. Rather than using a modern USB keyboard, you might save yourself some headaches by using an older, PS2-plug keyboard, then using a USB adapter with it. The reason I say this is because the ICs in older keyboards are much larger than newer ones and are so much easier to solder to. The pins are nice and spread out...and quite sturdy. The overall size of the IC is still small enough to hide, though. The newer keyboards use mini-circuit-board with all micro-surface-mount components which are HELL to work with.
It doesn't look that hard to map out which relays go where on the Keyboard thats been sacrificed for the projust so far (I'm pondering how I'm going to hide the circits though, but I guess if I make the board a little thinker then I first planed to it should be OK still)
Quote
I know what you're saying with the keys...you just want a completely stealth setup where you just have to brush your fingertips across the letters on the faceplate to get a response, right?
Thats exactly what I trying to do.
Quote
What I was trying to say about tracing the membrane sheet was....ditch the sheet entirely and save the IC...but keep the membrane sheet around because you can use it to map out the connections into the IC.
Exactly, but after looking at the membrane it doesn't look that hard to map out all the keys. (the only difficulty I think I'll have is making sure that everything works the same with my rigged system, as the original) Soldering all the small stuff together shouldn't be to difficult for me. On of my hobbies is working on 1/72 scaled models, which I like to rig up with working lights.
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