Alt Style

[fabulouspanda]

Disclaimer: By sending us this information you thereby grant us permission to use the image and questionnaire responses provided above. Responses will be saved, vetted, and eventually published in a commercial application for mobile platforms (initially iOS) and the web. Only submissions of a publishable standard, determined by our personal whim and fancy, will make it to the final product. We also reserve the right to pick and choose from the responses you provide, but will never alter or distort the semantic content of any of your answers, or associate them with any individual other than yourself.

Privacy Policy: The information you provide will be made public on mobile platforms and the web. However, we will NEVER publicise any sensitive information (such as your name or email address) unless you specifically give us consent to do so.

There is a lot right here that gives reason to be uncomfortable. 

I understand how you feel, I'm not especially fond of legal spiel myself, this is the first iteration of our policy and it will be improved with time - I'll just clarify as much as I can by saying the difference between the 'sensitive' information and what will be published is the name/email will not be published unless you let us know you'd rather we did publish them, anything anyone has a problem with can be taken down on request, and we are a part of the alt scene ourselves so hopefully we'll manage to create something people can be proud to be a part of.. that's our intention!

[von Corax]

Alright guys, let's lay off them. They've come back and are taking this all in good humour so it's unseemly of us to continue criticising.

Mujuw and FabulousPanda, thank you for taking an interest in our forum and I wish you the best of luck in finding models but if you want help from here we'd appreciate it if you got involved with our community and 'gave back' in a way

Yeah, what he said. Or what I said. Or something like that...

To Mujuw and FabulousPanda, I apologize for the ill feelings I've caused, and if you gentlefolk are interested enough to participate in our community you'll find we have an incredibly short memory when it comes to poor first impressions. I do hope you'll feel likewise.

[Siliconous Skumins]

I have been watching this thread develop (thought it best to keep out to avoid stirring things more), and as they have took it on the chin, then I too will apologise for my little rant. Although I hope it proved to be 'interesting'... 

If you two wish to participate on this forum, then I will be more than happy to treat you like our other members, if not then I wish you the best of luck in your goals.

SS

[Augustus Longeye]

I too will apologise for my parts, but with an advisory note... your original post was very brief and contained no information at all, you might want to bulk it out a little bit (with more information mostly) for next time.
Also, I do stand by what I say with formatting; it makes it quite difficult for me to read when words are larger like that... To actually read it I had to copy it into word and remove all the formatting. I'm not saying this is a big problem, it's just a consideration, perhaps
Again, my apologies and I hope the rest of your stay is more pleasant.
~Longeye~

[Argus Fairbrass]

Oh good lord hahaha!

I still can't help but be curious though. I'm not terribly up on apps in general, but what is an alt app anyway? Is this some new work of Satan with which I'm unfamiliar? or an astounding technological leap forward and exclusive industry first!

I mean how does it even work, what is it's purpose?

Is it so Joe Bloggs can have some assistance when going to a weird and wonderful part of town? "Oh I'm off to that thing tonight, better "alt" myself immediately! Hmmm what to do what to do? *frantically rubs chin* ooh I know, I'll use my spanking new "alt style app"!

Wtf! who even are these people

We tried to get Satan involved, but unfortunately he didn't appreciate our terms..

This app will feature a photographic collection of various alternative styles with descriptions of sources and methods of creation of the clothes/makeup/tattoos/piercings/accessories and individuals that intrigue us and will allow users to submit their own photos and comment on others..

So essentially I was right. Don't get me wrong I think it's quite industrious, but I would agree you should have made that a little more clear from the start. As technically you stand to profit from these images.

We better be careful folks, if we carry on like this the whole subcultures going to get a reputation for "consumer resistance", jeez wouldn't that be awful!

Still welcome anyway, it gets a little bumpy round here (only very occasionally) but y'know, keeps things "interesting".

[J. Wilhelm]

I, personally don't believe it's too much to ask to have a newcomer present themselves and their intentions properly. If it is for profit, we have a section ("Trading") entirely dedicated to people seeking profit from their visit or participation!  So it's not like we don't welcome business or business research.  Being an "alternative lifestyle" (actually you'll find we are much more than that), doesn't mean we don't care about manners or etiquette... in particular our "subculture" actually prides itself in reviving the manners and affectations of gentler times (Victorian Period).  Perhaps a bit of reading before posting would have given you a hint?...  Do you like bicycles?

[Narsil]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I don't particularly have a problem with new people coming on here and selling things or asking for help on their first post as long as they actually take the time to explain what it is they are doing.

Posting little more than a link to a webshop/survey is unlikely to endear you to your prospective customers or contributors.

There's nothing wrong with going on a forum to promote your business, if you do a good job then everyone stands to benefit, but the whole point is that you actually engage with people. A web forum is an opportunity to talk directly to your customers and find out exactly what they want. 

[D.Oakes]

Disclaimer: By sending us this information you thereby grant us permission to use the image and questionnaire responses provided above. Responses will be saved, vetted, and eventually published in a commercial application for mobile platforms (initially iOS) and the web. Only submissions of a publishable standard, determined by our personal whim and fancy, will make it to the final product. We also reserve the right to pick and choose from the responses you provide, but will never alter or distort the semantic content of any of your answers, or associate them with any individual other than yourself.

Privacy Policy: The information you provide will be made public on mobile platforms and the web. However, we will NEVER publicise any sensitive information (such as your name or email address) unless you specifically give us consent to do so.

There is a lot right here that gives reason to be uncomfortable. 

I understand how you feel, I'm not especially fond of legal spiel myself, this is the first iteration of our policy and it will be improved with time - I'll just clarify as much as I can by saying the difference between the 'sensitive' information and what will be published is the name/email will not be published unless you let us know you'd rather we did publish them, anything anyone has a problem with can be taken down on request, and we are a part of the alt scene ourselves so hopefully we'll manage to create something people can be proud to be a part of.. that's our intention!

To be honest, I kind of like that wording better than the attempt at legal spiel.     And now actively participating in discussion and criticism, we like you.

[Narsil]

I personally think that obtaining permission to use copyright images by use of a disclaimer is iffy to say the least. Firstly it might well not stand up to any kind of legal challenge and you aren't covering yourself against people submitting images which they don't own.

If you're going to use other people's images for commercial purposes you should really have a proper agreement which sets out how they will be used and the exact nature of the permission granted. This should be actively agreed by both parties, not just slipped in as a disclaimer. Applying terms and conditions to a deal is fine but only as long as there is a clear agreement taking place, attempting to impose a unilateral contract without making it clear what you're going to do with the material is bad practice for lots of reasons.

A paragraph doesn't really constitute a proper copyright agreement. You need to cover things like what format and medium they will be published in,  the duration of the agreement, whether you are claiming sole or exclusive rights or a limited license, do you want to modify or alter the image, will the creator be properly credited etc etc.

Asking for material without making it clear what you're going to use it for does not make a good impression. Nowhere in your initial post or on the page you link to is it pointed out that the material is intended for commercial publication.

While people may see this as somewhat pedantic, anyone submitting images could well find themselves endorsing a product that they're not happy with.

[fabulouspanda]

There have been a lot of valid points here! The two of us will be working on everything related to this project together tomorrow, so we'll have another hack at it then  and see if we can't please a few more people... Thanks everyone for showing us some understanding, there's certainly a lot of the strong characters we're looking for here! We'll update this thread once we feel the form's been updated to address all the concerns that have arisen so far.

I can't deny that we're hoping to supplement our incomes with any profits from this app, although how successful we'll be has yet to been seen and I doubt it's a massive money-maker, but we're also hoping the app will benefit the community as well so if we do find success it'll be a two way street!

[mujuw]

You're right. The initial post was very bare and, from what I now understand, was basically like throwing a brick into your parlour room. I apologise for my ridiculous, elementary mistake.

*lights a pipe*

Narsil - I like your art. It's coherent.

Let me explain a little more about ourselves: what we are looking to do is a little more than just traverse internet forums with the mindset that that "this is 'alt', this is 'alt', let's smash it all together to produce something vapid and mud-like".

We're actually looking for something very specific and, I think, quite rare. The responses we receive will be used to create a relatively small catalogue of profiles you can look at and think … They get it. They understand themselves. They live not only in themselves but through themselves; emergently, every element of their appearance is considered and refined, and the result is something quite beautiful. We are looking to interview people for whom personal style is more than just periphery and gimmick. This is what I mean by "individuals for whom the self is art and art is taken seriously".

I hope that makes sense.

Regarding the precise elements of feedback ... I'm considering placing a button or hyperlink in the introduction section to optionally restyle the text formatting. Viewed imagistically, I think the layered formatting looks pretty. I am an artist, so this is important, but I understand that it is not functionally optimal. Thank you for pointing this out.

We're also going to re-word the agreement to make it more explicit (stating the initial price of the app, with a more exact description of the types of platform upon which it will be published, etc); and will probably also move this to the very beginning of the page. It wasn't supposed to be unilateral, but I couldn't think of what heading, other than 'terms and conditions', to give it. Our aims are not morally dubious, even though our policy has been badly phrased. We ultimately want to protect both parties.

And we will probably include an additional page of information about, and pictures of, ourselves.

Anyway, thanks for giving us a shot and accepting us into your community … It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance!

(P.S. Mr Panda has an electric bicycle …)

[Flightless Phoenix]

A small suggestion;

To cover yourself against people submitting images they do not own, you should probably include something in the terms and conditions. Maybe a tick box that in the survey that says 'I am the owner/have permission from the owner to use all of the images I have submitted' or words to that effect.

I wish you every success with your app.

[mujuw]

Thank you  (:

[J. Wilhelm]

Esteemed Mujuw and Fabulous Panda:

We do have a couple of lawyers in the forum, I believe (not myself), but inquiring about is not a bad idea.  Not everybody protects their copyright material, with me being a notable exception (I essentially plaster everything I do with legal notices, at the behest of my mother -who is a lawyer).  Sometimes that irks my fellow Steampunk brethren, but as someone who makes a living from Steampunk art, that practice has already come in very handy and even resulted in the successful negotiation of a contract with a major company (Sony).  Getting it right from the start is good advice.

[fabulouspanda]

Esteemed Mujuw and Fabulous Panda:

We do have a couple of lawyers in the forum, I believe (not myself), but inquiring about is not a bad idea.  Not everybody protects their copyright material, with me being a notable exception (I essentially plaster everything I do with legal notices, at the behest of my mother -who is a lawyer).  Sometimes that irks my fellow Steampunk brethren, but as someone who makes a living from Steampunk art, that practice has already come in very handy and even resulted in the successful negotiation of a contract with a major company (Sony).  Getting it right from the start is good advice.

Ooh, steampunk lawyers, fascinating... business is a scary thing i suppose, i should ask around! Luckily my day job is at a book publishing company so I should be able to find some answers from our images lady... Well done on the Sony contract! At a guess, did you make that Zeppelin in your avatar?

We're working on the form now with this thread in mind, hopefully it'll leave a slightly better impression once we're done with it... We do intend to do a lot of our research on the scene in London but we don't want to miss out on what the rest of the world has to offer and to be honest it's a little chilly for fashion at the moment!

[mujuw]

From what I gather, most content on the internet (especially images, sound files, scripts, etc) is copyrighted by default. So, you're right, it makes this kind of endeavour something of a legal minefield! Still, we hope to navigate our way though it; limbs intact.

Thanks for all of your suggestions: we’ve changed the content substantially, and have uploaded the new revision. Any feedback would be much appreciated (:

Sir Wilhelm – I’m interested – what kind of art do you make / work with?

[J. Wilhelm]

I am your local purveyor of fine Calculation Engines (computers), and related accessories, Mr.. Ms. Mujuw?  And the image is a simple post graphical manipulation of Daguerrotypes, Ms. Panda!

At your service *tips hat*