Are you unhappy with the modern world?

[Angus A Fitziron]

... what I find hard is the seeming apathy about the world around us a little hard to take.
I work in a primary school and have done for the last 11 years. even in this short time I have seen, year by year, a decrease in the "awe and wonder" that we are try to encourage. more and more kids seem to shrug their shoulders with a "so?" attitude that's a little soul destroying. maybe it was no better way back when, but the children in the area I live and work in just don't seem interested in anything.
-Rhylla-

Having brought up 4 kids I also am concerned at the apparent "I know what I need to know" attitude and lack of awe at the world we live in - it is all so taken for granted. I now have the opportunity to spend time with my grand kids and try to give them as much time to absorb this world's beauty as I am able. The following is my little Esmee being amazed:



What at?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The underwater viewing area at the zoo!

It is still there, we just need to bring it out and not crush it - I know, easier said than done.

[D.Oakes]

Found something interesting in the past weeks.  There are a lot more people unhappy with the modern world...so we are now doing something about it!     We are experimenting in a free society, working on a functional democracy, working on an economic system based on what you can do, not who hires you.  (for instance back to the days where there were a lot of smaller companies as oppose to giant ones)  Best of all the parents with kids, (that part is sad because some are working 3 jobs or more or worse got laid off or fired from them all) bring their kids with them and they have wonder.  One said, "It's like a carnival!"  I hope something great becomes of it, for now in many places we are like an entrenched nonviolent democratic army awaiting an attack. 

[Perturabo]

Just reading through the posts here and some of the opinions I've heard before, but in a slightly different setting. I spend upto three weeks of my summer at a Tudor re-creation (not a re-enactment, we actually live as tudors, and do things the tudor way as faithfully as possible,) as an Ostler. I work a pair of heavy horses as well as the masters riding stable. On some days it can be cold, wet and miserable doing heavy work and walking your soles thin on nothing but a bowlful of Bl**dy Pottage! The flipside of course is working alongside such graceful, powerful animals, working to the sun and not a watch, and a complete lack of mobile phones Tudoresque speech takes some getting used to (and an age to get out of, once you return to that "other" world) but fundamentally revolves around respect and courtesy, something that becomes profoundly apparent when real-life returns.

That wouldn't happen to be Kentwell Hall would it? 

I do feel dissatisfied with the modern world, but that doesn't mean I'd rather live in the past, more that I'd rather live largely in seclusion from it, which is what I intend to do. Although, it will be difficult, what with all the regulations in this country designed to prevent people from living where and how they please. The lacking sense of wonder issue is an interesting one. For my part I do still possess one, but it I find it is slowly being crushed the more time I spend in urban environments. It's an odd feeling, experiencing some level of awe at human ingenuity, but at the same time feeling that it's squeezing all the beauty out of the world. Home for me is a rural area, but there aren't even any natural forests there anymore, just pine farms, which is kind of depressing in itself.

Hmm. I could have sworn I had a point of some sort in mind when I started typing...

[Zeppelin Kapitan Fritz]

     In response to those who say that they cannot change the world...

     I do not believe that one person can change the world. I believe that many people can change the world through cooperation and hard work. Most people however, are unwilling to put any time and effort into doing this.

P.S.

[Rant Mode]

     I'm convinced at this point that I may be just another one of those people. I need to actually do what is right and not just talk about it. I have told myself this many times before, with no results. Occasionly I will do a token good deed just to make me feel better about myself, and then resume my ignorant and selfish ways.

[Rant Mode Terminated]

[bicyclebuilder]

Not to go to political: In order to change the world, we should:
- terminate the value of money. (and dominace over less fortunate)
- get rid of religion. (create equality)
- put nature first. (preserve earth)

since none of these things can be changed in any way, we're stuck with what we have.

[Rockula]

- terminate the value of money.

Erm...I think that's actually happening isn't it? Certainly seems like it when I do my weekly shop.

[bicyclebuilder]

- terminate the value of money.

Erm...I think that's actually happening isn't it? Certainly seems like it when I do my weekly shop.

Step one is in progress. moohahaha!!! moohahaha!!! (evil laugh)

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

Not to go to political: In order to change the world, we should:
- terminate the value of money. (and dominace over less fortunate)
- get rid of religion. (create equality)
- put nature first. (preserve earth)

since none of these things can be changed in any way, we're stuck with what we have.

I disagree with basically all of those actions -  I agree with getting rid of inequality, ending oppression by the rich, and living more sustainably, but we definitely aren't on the same page about how to make that happen. Anything that requires outright controlling people's lives will usually backfire, IMO. Incentivizing it and letting them make their own choices is a better option.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

In order to change the world, we should:

Start over.

Even if somehow 99.9 percent of the population dies off, we'd still have the World Population of around 1774.

So...yeah.  Overpopulation is kind of a big problem.

Apocalypse NOW, please.
Don't care if I'm a survivor or not, there's a bigger story.

[akumabito]

Seems rather drastical.. I think I pfer Timon & Pumbaa's solution: When the world turns its back on you, you turn your back on the world. Hakuna Matata!

[Captain Shipton Bellinger]

In order to change the world, we should:

Start over.

Most creation myths have some sort of apocalyptic event that wipes out all but a tiny fraction of (faithful) humanity. We're still were we are now.

Trouble is, regardless of the nature of the apocalypse, it would still be people that survived. To quote; "Well, there's your problem."

[bicyclebuilder]

Not to go to political: In order to change the world, we should:
- terminate the value of money. (and dominace over less fortunate)
- get rid of religion. (create equality)
- put nature first. (preserve earth)

since none of these things can be changed in any way, we're stuck with what we have.

I disagree with basically all of those actions -  I agree with getting rid of inequality, ending oppression by the rich, and living more sustainably, but we definitely aren't on the same page about how to make that happen. Anything that requires outright controlling people's lives will usually backfire, IMO. Incentivizing it and letting them make their own choices is a better option.

We are on the same page. The radical changes I pointed out are a huge part of our sivilisation. We can't change them, so we have to make due with what we have. Minor personal changes are possible, but one single person can't change the world.

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

We are on the same page. The radical changes I pointed out are a huge part of our sivilisation. We can't change them, so we have to make due with what we have. Minor personal changes are possible, but one single person can't change the world.

Agreed. Definitely don't want to get political (I get plenty of that on other forums). It will take slow, steady progress by the good folks to enact the kind of changes that we hope to see.

[Uncle Arthur]

While the modern world has many good points, I feel that many of the best points of former ages have been lost to time.  To me one of the greatest losses is common manners.  There is no cost to a nod and smile to a stranger. Nor is it expensive to offer a kind word to someone or to hold a door for a little old lady(or any lady for that matter). Please and thank you seem rare and seldom heard in these modern times.

So , am I unhappy with the modern world? I suppose the answer would be yes in most cases.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

It can be expensive (in a manner) to open a door for a lady who, unbenknownst to the male door-opener, is a Radical Feminist...

I guess it could expensive (in a manner) depending on all sorts of cultural factors...gender, political leanings, sometimes even race, socio-economic class...

I want some better etiquette from the common man and woman as well...we have done mucked that all up through over-complication.

[MWBailey]

I want some better etiquette from the common man and woman as well...we have done mucked that all up through over-complication.

A great deal of the abuses of etiquette and outright lack of 'proper' etiquette and ethics is a direct result of the example set for others by others. That's one of the things that I have found (and continue to find) especially encouraging in that regard, about the great majority of Steampunks. On here at least, and frequently out in the general population, we/they tend more toward greater civility and more ethical behavior -- Or at least try to do so. Even when the bounder in the semi decides to play Mad Max in the middle of the freeway.

[von Corax]

It can be expensive (in a manner) to open a door for a lady who, unbenknownst to the male door-opener, is a Radical Feminist...

"I didn't hold the door for you because you're a lady, I held it for you because I'm a gentleman, and I choose to show respect to everyone around me. Of course, if you really don't want respect, then I suppose you can look forward to not receiving it…"

[HR]

I have to say that on the whole I find most people still have reasonable manners, I have the door held open for me regularly (I'm male) and I always hold the door for others, male or female. It tends to be the young, I'm afraid (I'm not tarring you all with the same brush) and I think this is purely down to it not occurring/never having been taught. BUT some of the worst offenders are little old ladies! The number of times I've been rammed with a trolley or barged past in the street by them and then they just give you a defiant stare as if to say "I'm a little old lady, what ya gona do about it?" 
When it comes to "Yuves" I think that is bravado and pier pressure, we were all probably pretty obnoxious in our teens (I know I was). If you got most of them on their own they would probably be OK.  With many I think it is just a lack of knowledge. If you don't realise you are being rude how do you stop? But then there are some complete ***** out there too.

[Narsil]

While the modern world has many good points, I feel that many of the best points of former ages have been lost to time.  To me one of the greatest losses is common manners.  There is no cost to a nod and smile to a stranger. Nor is it expensive to offer a kind word to someone or to hold a door for a little old lady(or any lady for that matter). Please and thank you seem rare and seldom heard in these modern times.

So , am I unhappy with the modern world? I suppose the answer would be yes in most cases.

Is this really true though ?

I find that the vast majority of people I encounter are perfectly polite, of course some people aren't but I think it would be a bit of a stretch to suggest that there was ever a time when everybody was uniformly nice to everybody else. There are certainly plenty of historical examples of rude people.

Nancy Astor: “Sir, if you were my husband, I would give you poison.”
Churchill: “If I were your husband I would take it.”

Posterity will ne'er survey
a Nobler grave than this:
Here lie the bones of Castlereagh:
Stop, traveller, and p----- !
-Byron

There have certainly been times when a much greater degree of formality has been the social norm but I'm not sure that's the same thing as real politeness. In fact there is a reasonable argument that complex systems of etiquette were specifically intended to socially exclude people who were unfamiliar with them and Victorian society was defined by complex relationships of social status which are difficult for us to even comprehend today.

The Victorian middle classes might have nodded and smiled to each other in the street but they certainly wouldn't treat servants or tradesmen in the same way, in fact they would probably have gone out of their way to avoid any social interaction with them at all.

Social etiquette in public in order to make oneself look good isn't really the same thing as having real consideration for others.

[Atterton]

Hear hear Mr Narsil.

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

Myself - I don't really long for politeness (it isn't in that short of supply in my experience) but I do like the idea of bringing more formality into society - I like the idea of wearing suits and ties and tophats everywhere, just because I'm so tired of the t-shirt and sweatpants culture. There's nothing sacred in society, and very little personal pride anymore. At least for the bulk of people.

[Narsil]

Myself - I don't really long for politeness (it isn't in that short of supply in my experience) but I do like the idea of bringing more formality into society - I like the idea of wearing suits and ties and tophats everywhere, just because I'm so tired of the t-shirt and sweatpants culture. There's nothing sacred in society, and very little personal pride anymore. At least for the bulk of people.

I have a slightly different perspective on this. One thing which I do think is lacking, certainly in the UK is a lack of respect for people who work with their hands. Now I don't think that this has ever been any different, in fact it seems to be a legacy of the past rather than anything else but I think that there is a widespread assumption that if you wear a suit to work you are somehow inherently superior to someone who wears overalls.

In some ways I think that this is one of the underlying causes of the current economic mess, people (politicians especially) don't really understand the difference between making money and creating wealth, hence an over-reliance on the financial sector and a neglect of industry in many western countries.

A good example of this is the status of engineers. In terms of levels of training and education a professional engineer is comparable to a doctor or a lawyer but engineers have nothing like the same status as either of these. How many people are there in government today with a background in engineering or indeed science ? and how many lawyers ...in fact how many financiers who don't have any tangible professional  skills at all ?

[Atterton]

One thing I deplore about the modern world, is how Western society seems focused on keeping the wheels of economy running. Scientific advances are made because they can help turn a profit, instead of our profits being used on scientific advancements. That´s one thing I feel was different in the Victorian age. These days it feels too often like I´m living in the Brave New World with all it´s rampant consumerism.

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

I have a slightly different perspective on this. One thing which I do think is lacking, certainly in the UK is a lack of respect for people who work with their hands. Now I don't think that this has ever been any different, in fact it seems to be a legacy of the past rather than anything else but I think that there is a widespread assumption that if you wear a suit to work you are somehow inherently superior to someone who wears overalls.

In some ways I think that this is one of the underlying causes of the current economic mess, people (politicians especially) don't really understand the difference between making money and creating wealth, hence an over-reliance on the financial sector and a neglect of industry in many western countries.

A good example of this is the status of engineers. In terms of levels of training and education a professional engineer is comparable to a doctor or a lawyer but engineers have nothing like the same status as either of these. How many people are there in government today with a background in engineering or indeed science ? and how many lawyers ...in fact how many financiers who don't have any tangible professional  skills at all ?

Couldn't agree with you more - I don't necessarily think that we should value people on how they dress, I just think it would be a nice thing if clothes in general were more formal. I also think the dress and personal pride thing isn't really a class or occupation distinction - I know of people who live in extreme poverty but go to every length to make sure their kids are clean and well mannered and in respectable clothes, and I know people who have more than enough money but their kids are terribly behaved and covered in filth all the time.

The big thing is, it would be wonderful if the esteem we hold for different professions is based on entirely different criteria. Currently, I think we judge professions based on notoriety, earning potential, difficulty of certification, and usefulness to society, in approximately that order. We should really value trade skills much more, because those folks are the ones that keep the truly necessary underpinnings of our society in working order, and that is where a lot of people that are currently contributing to the education bubble should be going. If you think about it, stock market entrepreneurs and lawyers contribute very little of meaningful value to society, and/or cause so many negative effects that we'd be better of without most of them. On the other hand, scientists and engineers probably contribute a lot more to wealth creation than most.

[von Corax]

A good example of this is the status of engineers. In terms of levels of training and education a professional engineer is comparable to a doctor or a lawyer but engineers have nothing like the same status as either of these. How many people are there in government today with a background in engineering or indeed science ? and how many lawyers ...in fact how many financiers who don't have any tangible professional  skills at all ?

Interesting. As I understand it, it has long been the custom in Britain to refer to all sorts of repairmen as "engineers." I believe that in Canada the only non-professionals who are commonly known as "engineers" are railway locomotive drivers and "Stationary Engineers" ie. boiler/steam-plant/refrigeration-plant operators, and for some years now there has been an informal turf-war between the Canadian Society of Professional Engineers and the Canadian Information Processing Society over the use of the term "Software Engineering." Also, unless things have changed, PEngs are included in the list of regulated professionals who are entitled to endorse passport applications for people to whom they are not closely related (along with lawyers, doctors, chartered accountants, and I think a very few others.)

With regard to government (and I assume you mean elected representatives, as distinct from civil servants,) I think the problem is not that engineers and scientists don't win elections, but that they don't stand in the first place. A career in Law offers a logical progression into Politics, while a career in the Sciences simply does not. (In all fairness, I should point out that our current Prime Minister has a degree in Economics. He's also the most-hated Prime Minister since the last guy who was Prime Minister, but that's par for the course in Canadian politics... )