Are you unhappy with the modern world?

[Dr Fidelius]

Book-learning versus home-grown wisdom is the basic American joke.
"Tim was so learned that he could name a horse in nine languages. So ignorant, that he bought a cow to ride on." --Benjamin Franklin.

This country has always been anti-intellectual. Now we just have many more literate people to spread that anti-intellectualism.

[D.Oakes]

Book-learning versus home-grown wisdom is the basic American joke.
"Tim was so learned that he could name a horse in nine languages. So ignorant, that he bought a cow to ride on." --Benjamin Franklin.

This country has always been anti-intellectual. Now we just have many more literate people to spread that anti-intellectualism.

Actually I would disagree historically.  I'd say this country has always been anti-college as part of its independent nature, but as for "book-learnin" that was something else entirely.  Many great minds have been largely self taught, though not American, Einstein is one:  "I never let school get in the way of my education."  Teaching yourself can be great, but it also has the problem of not being able to get feedback.  It is entirely possible to misunderstand a concept and never be corrected on it. 

Using myself as an example, growing up on a farm as an only child my friends were far away so over the summer I often read.  I read through the 1965 World Book encyclopedia many times.  I had many books on the Civil War, Dinosaurs, Astronomy, etc.  My only problems came with pronunciation, which due to finally being able to share ideas with others I have been able to correct.  When I went to college I skipped classes and drank a lot and still managed to graduate in the top 10% of my class, mainly because I developed the ability to learn quickly and also I tended to research things just for fun.  (in fact right now I am kicking back, having a few beers, and am about to start research on Shakos...and maybe listen to some music to get my artistic side thinking)

So that said I think it comes down to what materials are available.  If you grow up in a world full of games and trash television, you'll never be so bored as to find enjoyment from an encyclopedia which will in turn will lead to other intellectual pursuits down the road.  If Abraham Lincoln (self-taught) grew up today he probably would never be president because instead of being so bored as to pick up law books, he'd be sitting around watching Jersey Shore......

[Uncle Arthur]

Book-learning versus home-grown wisdom is the basic American joke.
"Tim was so learned that he could name a horse in nine languages. So ignorant, that he bought a cow to ride on." --Benjamin Franklin.

This country has always been anti-intellectual. Now we just have many more literate people to spread that anti-intellectualism.

Actually I would disagree historically.  I'd say this country has always been anti-college as part of its independent nature, but as for "book-learnin" that was something else entirely.  Many great minds have been largely self taught, though not American, Einstein is one:  "I never let school get in the way of my education."  Teaching yourself can be great, but it also has the problem of not being able to get feedback.  It is entirely possible to misunderstand a concept and never be corrected on it. 




WE could be long lost brothers. Rural background and only child myself. Was reading at about eighth grade level by second grade. Hated school because it was so dull (as were most of my schoolmates). Have studies history by way of making what was used in the time periods that strike my fancy. Not many Viking Age historians can forge a laminated knife blade as an example.  Now as my arthritis permits I am working at steam power. Self education is wonderful.

Using myself as an example, growing up on a farm as an only child my friends were far away so over the summer I often read.  I read through the 1965 World Book encyclopedia many times.  I had many books on the Civil War, Dinosaurs, Astronomy, etc.  My only problems came with pronunciation, which due to finally being able to share ideas with others I have been able to correct.  When I went to college I skipped classes and drank a lot and still managed to graduate in the top 10% of my class, mainly because I developed the ability to learn quickly and also I tended to research things just for fun.  (in fact right now I am kicking back, having a few beers, and am about to start research on Shakos...and maybe listen to some music to get my artistic side thinking)

So that said I think it comes down to what materials are available.  If you grow up in a world full of games and trash television, you'll never be so bored as to find enjoyment from an encyclopedia which will in turn will lead to other intellectual pursuits down the road.  If Abraham Lincoln (self-taught) grew up today he probably would never be president because instead of being so bored as to pick up law books, he'd be sitting around watching Jersey Shore......

[D.Oakes]

WE could be long lost brothers. Rural background and only child myself. Was reading at about eighth grade level by second grade. Hated school because it was so dull (as were most of my schoolmates). Have studies history by way of making what was used in the time periods that strike my fancy. Not many Viking Age historians can forge a laminated knife blade as an example.  Now as my arthritis permits I am working at steam power. Self education is wonderful.

I taught myself knapping when I was still in elementary school.  I even made crossbows and the like.  I think that sort of stuff is what got me into reenacting and steampunk, that urge to try to recreate the past. 

[Uncle Arthur]

Exactly. The best way to understand any culture is to try to reproduce those artifacts that were(or are) important to it.

[Daedalus Forge]

Honestly if I could I wouldn't spare a thought about leaving this world or time. So few people have morals or even common deceny anymore, almost the entire human race is made up of selfish, self-centered, ignorant twits. Who wouldn't be able to tell what being polite is if it came up and bit them on the arse. I'm not excluding myself from that group either, I may hide under a veneer of politeness and I may be able to show kindness and manners. But I'm as selfish and greedy and egotistical as the rest of the lot, I may try to be a good person but that doesn't change the fact that I'm a monster just like rest of us humans. So to answer your question yes I would love to leave this time for one where we at least tried to hide the fact that were monsters. A time where I can at least pretend for a while longer that there is something about us worth saving.

Well said.  Though I think there is even more to it than just a craving for a more polite and genteel age (and I'm not between employment, either - something someone else mentioned, somewhere else in this thread, as to why people might be dissatisfied.  In fact I work full time, in an excellently well paid, respectable job that I detest with every fibre of my being).  

Now, I'm not suggesting that the Victorian or Edwardian eras were wonderful times to live in; they weren't: appalling infant mortality rates, workhouses, the almost public acceptance of child abuse, child prostitution, child labour (we really weren't very nice to kids, back then), rampant disease, etc. etc. etc. are not good things; and I realise that the 'steampunk' view of the Victorian era is heavily coloured by rose-tinted spectacles, where we choose to keep the 'good' and discard or ignore the 'bad'.  But Steampunk isn't Victorian; like any 'sub-cultural' movement, it is a product, or, more accurately, a reaction to the 'modern world'.  

So, in my opinion, whether your love of Steampunk is as superficial as thinking that women look sexy in corsets and stockings (they do), or as profound as living a full time Steampunk lifestyle, or designing and building beautiful and functional object de arte, a la Jake Von Slatt or Datamancer, the very fact that you gravitate towards Steampunk, in the first place, is because, in some way, however small, you are unhappy (or, at least, slightly dissatisfied) with the modern world.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Honestly if I could I wouldn't spare a thought about leaving this world or time. So few people have morals or even common deceny anymore, almost the entire human race is made up of selfish, self-centered, ignorant twits. Who wouldn't be able to tell what being polite is if it came up and bit them on the arse. I'm not excluding myself from that group either, I may hide under a veneer of politeness and I may be able to show kindness and manners. But I'm as selfish and greedy and egotistical as the rest of the lot, I may try to be a good person but that doesn't change the fact that I'm a monster just like rest of us humans. So to answer your question yes I would love to leave this time for one where we at least tried to hide the fact that were monsters. A time where I can at least pretend for a while longer that there is something about us worth saving.

Well said.  Though I think there is even more to it than just a craving for a more polite and genteel age (and I'm not between employment, either - something someone else mentioned, somewhere else in this thread, as to why people might be dissatisfied.  In fact I work full time, in an excellently well paid, respectable job that I detest with every fibre of my being).  

Now, I'm not suggesting that the Victorian or Edwardian eras were wonderful times to live in; they weren't: appalling infant mortality rates, workhouses, the almost public acceptance of child abuse, child prostitution, child labour (we really weren't very nice to kids, back then), rampant disease, etc. etc. etc. are not good things; and I realise that the 'steampunk' view of the Victorian era is heavily coloured by rose-tinted spectacles, where we choose to keep the 'good' and discard or ignore the 'bad'.  But Steampunk isn't Victorian; like any 'sub-cultural' movement, it is a product, or, more accurately, a reaction to the 'modern world'.  

So, in my opinion, whether your love of Steampunk is as superficial as thinking that women look sexy in corsets and stockings (they do), or as profound as living a full time Steampunk lifestyle, or designing and building beautiful and functional object de arte, a la Jake Von Slatt or Datamancer, the very fact that you gravitate towards Steampunk, in the first place, is because, in some way, however small, you are unhappy (or, at least, slightly dissatisfied) with the modern world.

This thread has been going on for some time now, and yet I still feel an urge to re-iterate:

I am a full-time, lifestyle Steampunk.  Even if I weren't specifically "Steampunk" (and sometimes I have my doubts), I'd STILL be a full-time, lifestyle counterculturalist.  There's no going back for me.  I have a 0g bone in my nose, stretched ears, tattoos on my head, throat, hands, fingers, penis, and nigh everywhere else.  I have absolutely NO clothes to go to a straight job-interview in.

The modern world is magnificent.  Imagining that there was a "better time" in the past is absurd nostalgic fantasy.

If you think the 1890's were magical, you're right.  But if you had actually LIVED in the 1890's, you'd have thought the Roman Empire was magical.  And you'd have been right.  But if you'd lived in the era of the Roman Empire, you'd have thought that the imaginary Golden Age of Homer's Illiad were magical.  And you'd have been right.

It seems that the greatest portion of the SP community has strong fascination with Fantasy in all of its myriad forms.  Nostalgia IS a form of fantasy.

Fantasy is awesome.  ENJOYING fantasy is human.  But accepting reality is mature.
Yesterday, objectively, wasn't any better than today.  In fact, the premise that the opposite is true is far more easily supported by empirical evidence.

[Hez]

I, on the other hand, am a fairly conservative, church attending, unionized medical professional.  The most counter-culture part of my lifestyle is riding my bike to work instead of driving a car.  I thought about a tattoo once but I chickened out of getting poked with needles. (No, I don't give needles either.)  
Otherwise I completely agree with our Vagabond friend.  I would not trade the modern world, imperfect though it is, with any other time period.  (even the forties and I love swing dancing)
The stresses of my personal world (I am currently off work to care for my mother who has just been officially declared palliative) are made bearable by the combination of the advantages of the modern world (health care, equipment, a contract that allows leave of absence without losing my job, computer access to friends etc) and the ability to escape from it through steampunk.

[Aleister Crow]

I wouldn't trade the modern world for the past, either. I'm sure it's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

As I mentioned before though, I'd happily trade it for the 21st century "modern world" envisioned back in the 40's and 50's. Most aspects of it, anyway. I don't think anyone really predicted the direction computers would take or the Rise of the Internet. (Some of the old Sci-Fi radio shows I have talk about computers in the 21st century being the size of buildings and using punch cards. Yeah, I won't complain about how that went...)

[gavinfuzzy]

As much as I love steampunk/ victorian times, it's not a place I would want to live in. Our modern day might not be perfect, but it fixes some issues in society that were present back then. Also, with modern day technology, life really is easier to live out. Yeah, it would be nice to visit that era, but not live there permanently.

And then there's the internet... hmmm...

[19th Century Space Pilot]

What, with scantily clad Martian and Venusian princesses and atomic rocketships capable of reaching Jupiter in a few short months, before landing and doing battle with the hostile native empire while being limited to swords and bows, plus any magic sufficiently advanced technology you can use?

I'd take that.

Technologically, today is better than the past. Culturally, it depends where you live. But, one can think of it as a grab bag, and as time passes, there's more stuff in the bag. It doesn't mean you have to take it all, though I can see where Schroeder is coming from when he says that technology is legislation.

Take what you like from what we've got and build your world. We have everything in the 21st century, plus everything available before. If you want to take advantage of only the advanced medical technology, 'tis your choice.

[von Corax]

To summarize the last five posts, (as well as my own opinion,) I paraphrase Mr. Churchill:

Our modern age is the worst possible one in which to live, with the exception of every single age which has come before.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

To summarize the last five posts, (as well as my own opinion,) I paraphrase Mr. Churchill:

Our modern age is the worst possible one in which to live, with the exception of every single age which has come before.

Eternal thanks, Von Corax...that's the best quote I've heard in SOME time, and I'm gonna hafta remember it...

[Flightless Phoenix]

Onwards to the future eh?
Although when I'm sitting on a train, using wifi internet on a computer the size of a notebook, travelling from London to Birmingham in 90 minutes I have to suspect the future is already here:

'The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed.' —William Gibson

[von Corax]

To summarize the last five posts, (as well as my own opinion,) I paraphrase Mr. Churchill:

Our modern age is the worst possible one in which to live, with the exception of every single age which has come before.

Eternal thanks, Von Corax...that's the best quote I've heard in SOME time, and I'm gonna hafta remember it...

  

[Ulysses Reynolds]

Onwards to the future eh?
Although when I'm sitting on a train, using wifi internet on a computer the size of a notebook, travelling from London to Birmingham in 90 minutes I have to suspect the future is already here:

'The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed.' —William Gibson

Now I need to go read neurromancer.

[Aleister Crow]

One more quote:

"What did I want?
I wanted the hurtling moons of Barsoom. I wanted Storisende and Poictesme, and Holmes shaking me awake to tell me, "The games' afoot!" I wanted to float down the Mississippi on a raft and elude a mob in company with the Duke of Bilgewater and the Lost Dauphin. I wanted Prester John and Excalibur held by a moon-white arm out of a silent lake. I wanted to sail with Ulysses and with Tros of Samothrace and eat the lotus in a land that seemed always afternoon.
I wanted the feeling of romance and the sense of wonder I had known as a kid. I wanted the world to be what they had promised me it was going to be- instead of the tawdry, lousy, fouled-up mess it is."
-- Glory Road, Robert Heinlein

[Lady Ava]

Right now, I'm massively p*ssed off with the modern world!

I'm expected to cap my intelligence just because I'm smarter and brighter than my new workmates? that's not happening.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Right now, I'm massively p*ssed off with the modern world!

I'm expected to cap my intelligence just because I'm smarter and brighter than my new workmates? that's not happening.

I believe that's a story as old as time, lass...has more to do with being human that modern!

[Hez]

Right now, I'm massively p*ssed off with the modern world!

I'm expected to cap my intelligence just because I'm smarter and brighter than my new workmates? that's not happening.

My dear, don't cap it.  Use in - but subtly enough that they don't realize you're in control.
The secret when exploring new civilizations is to tread softly until you learn the native culture and traditions.  Then you can mold them to your own purposes
and taKE OVER THE WORLD!!
Ahem,
er,
pardon me.  I meant ...
umm...
You can help to improve the local situation. 
Yes.
I'm certain that's what I meant. 

[The Squire]

I'm expected to cap my intelligence just because I'm smarter and brighter than my new workmates? that's not happening.

I recently started a new job, and on the first day I was given a list of tasks that "just had to be completed in two weeks - three at the latest!"
I finished the list by 1:30 that day.
I think it's been a spell since they've had someone who knew what they were doing and set to with a purpose.
Intelligence and art applied with diligence and a bit of speed. It's what makes work fun.

[Lady Ava]

I'm expected to cap my intelligence just because I'm smarter and brighter than my new workmates? that's not happening.

I recently started a new job, and on the first day I was given a list of tasks that "just had to be completed in two weeks - three at the latest!"
I finished the list by 1:30 that day.
I think it's been a spell since they've had someone who knew what they were doing and set to with a purpose.
Intelligence and art applied with diligence and a bit of speed. It's what makes work fun.

Turns out though, I'm actually getting preferential treatment in terms of not working weekends and stuff because I'm good at my job, I'm polite, pleasant and helpful <3

[akumabito]

Although when I'm sitting on a train, using wifi internet on a computer the size of a notebook, travelling from London to Birmingham in 90 minutes I have to suspect the future is already here

I know, right? Sometimes it's good to take a step back and just look at all the awesomeness..

Just the other day I was cought staring at my phone. It's 'just' a Samsung Galaxy S - absolutely nothing special by today's smarthphone standards. Yet the tech that has gone into it is absolutely mind-boggling when you think about it. My phone's tech had been deemed impossible only a decade ago. And utterly inconceivable a decade before that! Yet now it's just one of those things we take for granted and accept as mundane..

Nevermind that it is receiving signals from freakin' space to tell me where I'm going, that it let's me receive and send data wirelessly all over the globe, that I can take hi-res pics with it, play games with it that have better graphics than a 10 year old game console..instead of thinking about all that awesomeness we complain about the batteries lasting 'only' two days between recharges, or that it takes a little over a minute to boot up when you turn it on.. 

[TVC15]

I'm not happy about the modern world. Now, I appreciate all the functional toys we have but whatever happened to 'Fizzies'? A carbonated soda in a tablet? All you needed was a glass of water. We were promised our own hover-cars and personal jet packs decades ago. Never happened. Controllable fusion power? Where is it? And what about the moving sidewalks? It seems like if you drive and text, it's kill or be killed. *rant over*

[akumabito]

I'm not happy about the modern world. Now, I appreciate all the functional toys we have but whatever happened to 'Fizzies'? A carbonated soda in a tablet? All you needed was a glass of water.

That'd be awesome.. is/was that ever a real thing? Or even a 'coming soon' thing? I never heard of that..

We were promised our own hover-cars and personal jet packs decades ago. Never happened.

Not so much a technological issue.. more to do with people in general - think of the retards you encounter on the road every day. Now imagine all those people, tripple their speed, remove all road signs and give them an extra dimension to move around in. See my point? Flying cars for the masses just ain't gonna happen. Ever.

Controllable fusion power? Where is it?

Well, yeah.. there's that.. still very much a work in progress. I'm actually more upset with fission power - remember those old propaganda films.. electricity would be "too cheap to measure". That never happened either.. On the plus side; screw nuclear. We're making decent progress with solar and wind power generation. It's an option I'd prefer anyway..

And what about the moving sidewalks?

They've got those at airports.. oh, and theme-park parking lots..

It seems like if you drive and text, it's kill or be killed. *rant over*

Ya, one more reason the flying cars aren't getting here any time soon..