Are you unhappy with the modern world?

[joethemechanic]

Today we are also in a stage of technological advancement where we "know" so many things that it kills our imagination. We "know" so many things can not be done that we don't even dare dream of them.

I am reminded of what Sir Karl Popper said in his lecture "Of Clocks and Clouds" about how the more we know about any system the more predictable and "clock like" it becomes. In some ways things being more clock like is a good thing, but at the other end of the spectrum, well,,,, What when we become so technologically advanced that we can predict the date, the hour, the minute, and the second of an individual's death with mathematical precision?

Would you really want to know? What would it do to things like love and hope? Would you be able to love someone with all your heart if you knew they were going to die 18 months from the day you met? Or would you hold back to protect yourself from pain? Somehow I feel that this would be a great loss.

[Angus A Fitziron]

Sorry to demonstrate my ignorance but I don't know who Karl Popper is or was and it's too late for me to Google him - I need my bed! But, I don't think I agree with him. I always found that the more you know about something, the more you realise you don't know. I suppose if you are talking about a finite system with discernable bounderies, he might be right, but for the really big questions in life, like love, time, space and Marmite, I will stick by my version.

[joethemechanic]

Sorry to demonstrate my ignorance but I don't know who Karl Popper is or was and it's too late for me to Google him - I need my bed! But, I don't think I agree with him. I always found that the more you know about something, the more you realise you don't know. I suppose if you are talking about a finite system with discernable bounderies, he might be right, but for the really big questions in life, like love, time, space and Marmite, I will stick by my version.

I surly hope you are right, and there always remains a "great unknown" for the human mind to explore

[Narsil]

Today we are also in a stage of technological advancement where we "know" so many things that it kills our imagination. We "know" so many things can not be done that we don't even dare dream of them.

I am reminded of what Sir Karl Popper said in his lecture "Of Clocks and Clouds" about how the more we know about any system the more predictable and "clock like" it becomes. In some ways things being more clock like is a good thing, but at the other end of the spectrum, well,,,, What when we become so technologically advanced that we can predict the date, the hour, the minute, and the second of an individual's death with mathematical precision?

Would you really want to know? What would it do to things like love and hope? Would you be able to love someone with all your heart if you knew they were going to die 18 months from the day you met? Or would you hold back to protect yourself from pain? Somehow I feel that this would be a great loss.

I'm not so sure about that. It often seems to me that there was a feeling in the second half of the 19th century that science had a pretty good grasp of most things and it was really just a question of cataloguing and tying up a few loose ends. However things like relativity, particle physics and cosmology, driven by new experimental instruments suddenly started to suggest that there were lots of things that the scope of our knowledge was a lot less comprehensive than we might have liked to believe.

Certainly huge strides have been made in these fields subsequently. One of the interesting things is that a lot of the results suggest that the universe works in a way which is pretty weird compared to intuitive human 'common sense'. Rational yes but also weird.

There is also a growing realisation that there is a big difference between knowing the rules of a system in great detail and being able to make meaningful predictions about what it will do in the future. Especially when the system is large and complex and interacting with other systems.

[Captain Brandsson]

I do believe technology and advances that benefit humanity by makes our lives easy are wonderful things, but sometimes they make us less able.

I do not disagree with this.

To Captain Brandsson,..............I would love to run into you at a pub, I'm sure we would have a lively debate.

Why thank you!
Perhaps some day.
(I do love to talk. )

[D.Oakes]

For thos who are unhappy with the modern world, I challenge you to find a time in human history that was superior to ours in any objective way. Yes, a lot of things suck these days, and the world is far from perfect, but certainly it has to be the best time to be alive. The only valid reason I can think of to be unhappy with the world of today is because it isn't the world of tomorrow. but that's just me maybe

In having this discussion with my fiance today, I realized I kinda feel that way.  I guess my wish for a return is more due to the fact that I am absolutely disgusted with the potential vs. effort of the modern world and long to return to the days when I would have a lot more ability to make my own decisions without input from anybody else. (zoning laws, etc.)  I may be 24 for but being raised on a farm by my grandparents, I know how to handle myself and a family on my own and truthfully with a little land could do it a lot better than I am now.  *trying to skirt politics* Some of things certain members of this forum take for granted for instance are only a distant dream to others.  There is so much we could be doing right now as a collective civilization that would make life better for everyone if we weren't wasting the funds and resources on other things.  (or worse not using them at all) 

I kind of liken it to a Dr. Who analogy.  Think about when Dr. Who steps out the Tardis, looks around and realizes that something is a bit off.  That is honestly how I feel.  We put a man on the moon with probably less computer power than is in a smart phone....and where are we now? 

[yaghish]

long to return to the days when I would have a lot more ability to make my own decisions without input from anybody else. (zoning laws, etc.)

Where did you get the impression that the Victorian Age was more free in making you own decisions? There might have been less laws, but many of these laws were made to avoid the totally randomness of input from anybody (mostly the person in charge in a certain area; if you had no money or wasn't a friend of that person you could forget about making your own decisions, or a free life at all).

It's more the most of you want to go back to a past that never was. Nothing wrong dreaming about that, but you shouldn't confuse it with how it really used to be.

[D.Oakes]

long to return to the days when I would have a lot more ability to make my own decisions without input from anybody else. (zoning laws, etc.)

Where did you get the impression that the Victorian Age was more free in making you own decisions? There might have been less laws, but many of these laws were made to avoid the totally randomness of input from anybody (mostly the person in charge in a certain area; if you had no money or wasn't a friend of that person you could forget about making your own decisions, or a free life at all).

It's more the most of you want to go back to a past that never was. Nothing wrong dreaming about that, but you shouldn't confuse it with how it really used to be.

Geographically biased: my ancestors were homesteading in Pennsylvania in the US as late as 1870's.  And there was a lot more of that further west.  It was having "just enough of a farm" that allowed my family to come out of the Great Depression.  

Edit:  Right now my fiance and I trying to find work.  It is very tough.  Getting food is very tough.  We both got sick this week and didn't have enough money to even dream of healthcare.  (luckily I am farm raised and her mother is into natural remedies so we figured out how to get through it)  As late as my grandparents most of our worries would not even be happening.  Many of the taxes, laws, and fees that exist today did not exist back then.  For instance my fiance and I could very easily survive without electricity, (I'd have to say good bye to you fine folks for awhile) however the local law requires that the house is hooked up.  I've seen many people have their homes condemned because they were unable to pay the bill.  (which is quite high on the national level)  That money could be put toward food or healthcare.  

[joethemechanic]

For instance my fiance and I could very easily survive without electricity, (I'd have to say good bye to you fine folks for awhile) however the local law requires that the house is hooked up. 

What about the Amish?

[Indigo Spire]

For instance my fiance and I could very easily survive without electricity, (I'd have to say good bye to you fine folks for awhile) however the local law requires that the house is hooked up. 

What about the Amish?

They hold up traffic.

[joethemechanic]

Not me, I'm a "Black Bumper" my family is from an "automobile order"

[D.Oakes]

For instance my fiance and I could very easily survive without electricity, (I'd have to say good bye to you fine folks for awhile) however the local law requires that the house is hooked up.

What about the Amish?

Should an Amish family move into the borough, they'd most likely be exempt due to faith. 

[GabrielCrimson]

For instance my fiance and I could very easily survive without electricity, (I'd have to say good bye to you fine folks for awhile) however the local law requires that the house is hooked up.

What about the Amish?

Should an Amish family move into the borough, they'd most likely be exempt due to faith. 

Surely trips to R'lyeh to worship count as a a faith, who's to say that doesn't involve periods of electricity down time.

[joethemechanic]

For instance my fiance and I could very easily survive without electricity, (I'd have to say good bye to you fine folks for awhile) however the local law requires that the house is hooked up.

What about the Amish?

Should an Amish family move into the borough, they'd most likely be exempt due to faith. 

Otherpower Steam Generator

Get one of these 

[Mechanical_Zombie]

Unhappy might be a bit strong. After all, the modern world gives us superior medicine, plentiful food, a wealth of entertainment. It's not a bad time to live in.

Bored, however, might be more accurate.

[Miss Phoebe Stallybrass]

For instance my fiance and I could very easily survive without electricity, (I'd have to say good bye to you fine folks for awhile) however the local law requires that the house is hooked up.  I've seen many people have their homes condemned because they were unable to pay the bill.  (which is quite high on the national level)  That money could be put toward food or healthcare.  

You can work around that, though, can't you?  I mean, you might be required to be hooked up, but surely they can't force you to use power.  You may have to pay this month's bill, but there's nothing to say you couldn't get a jump on next month's finances by flipping your main breaker and roughing it.  They can't really come to you and say "You're not using enough electricity, you need to turn on more lightbulbs or you're out," can they...? 

They can make you be IN the modern world, but they can't make you be OF the modern world.

[Captain Brandsson]

It surprises me how many enthusiasts of a genre that focuses on pushing science, technology and society forward have a desire to see such things go somewhat backward.

[MWBailey]

It surprises me how many enthusiasts of a genre that focuses on pushing science, technology and society forward have a desire to see such things go somewhat backward.

Maybe we're backing up to get a running start...

[Maxwell B. Cooper]

It surprises me how many enthusiasts of a genre that focuses on pushing science, technology and society forward have a desire to see such things go somewhat backward.

Perhaps it's because we realise the world took a wrong turn and we're simply backing up the road so we can follow the correct one. 

[joethemechanic]

Perhaps it's because we realise the world took a wrong turn and we're simply backing up the road so we can follow the correct one.  

That might just be the problem. It makes me think of this,,,,,,

“Dear future generations: Please accept our apologies. We were rolling drunk on petroleum.”
― Kurt Vonnegut

I sometimes think that Steampunk is a way for us to imagine a world where we are not slaves to big oil

[Miss Phoebe Stallybrass]

It surprises me how many enthusiasts of a genre that focuses on pushing science, technology and society forward have a desire to see such things go somewhat backward.

I meant it only as a temporary cost-saving strategy, not as a general habit. 

[Atterton]

You would rather have a world where we are slaves to big coal?

[akumabito]

You would rather have a world where we are slaves to big coal?

Big oil, big coal, big natural gas.. as long as your prinicpal source of energy comes from somewhere else, you're entirely dependent on it. Localized energy production is the only way to solve that..

[bicyclebuilder]

You would rather have a world where we are slaves to big coal?

Big oil, big coal, big natural gas.. as long as your prinicpal source of energy comes from somewhere else, you're entirely dependent on it. Localized energy production is the only way to solve that..

I agree, use what you've got. Wind energy, water energy, sun energy, whatever. It's cheaper and enviromentally better than hauling fuel from all over the globe to your place. House building mostly uses local resouces to. When a country has got a lot of forrest, they usually build wooden houses. When a country has got plenty of clay they usually build brick houses.
Than again, if the alternative isn't more profitable than oil/coal/gas, than the alternative isn't a good alternative.

[joethemechanic]

Steam is a technology that is rather flexible when it comes to fuel. A boiler can be fired with many different fuels with only slight modifications. Coal, wood, gas, and oil just to name a few. Not to mention the fuels do not necessarily have to be refined. While this doesn't eliminate the stranglehold of big oil, big coal, or big gas, it lessens it a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can power our modern world with old type low efficiency steam technology, but back in the days of steam it was much harder for an energy company to get a hold of you by the "round things" and squeeze. If the price of coal skyrocketed, you could always burn wood, if wood got too high you could burn something else. (although I believe energy costs were relativity higher then than they are now)

And in a post apocalyptic world steam has lots of advantages. Two of the big ones are the ability to burn unrefined fuels, and being able to repaired with low tech tools and equipment.

All in all I know steam is a fantasy, it is an escape from today's world. But there are many scenarios both in the past and in the future where it would probably be the only thing that would work.