Duels

[celephicus]

This chap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BurtonPainting.png, Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton has the distinction of being the last person sent down from Oxford for duelling. Now if you are going to be thrown out of your place of learning, that is one which leaves a person's honour unimpaired!

I always thought that Burton would make a great basis for a steampunk character, he certainly had the peppery temperament. A soldier, a scholar, and a traveller in equal parts. As must have occurred to the author of those Riverword books. He was a fascinating character, when he went to Mecca disguised as a Pathan he inserted a jewel under his skin, which then healed over, to give him some capital if he was ever robbed. From his accounts of travels in disguise, he would sometimes explode with violent anger, so his fellow travellers would just leave him alone, regarding him (rightly) as a dangerius psychopath. He had a great line of insults too. An old woman jostled him, he called her in arabic "hoori of Jehannum" (whore from Hell)! On being insulted "I spit on your father" he replied "I would spit on yours if I knew which of thy mother's many admirers was thine".

[D.Oakes]

This chap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BurtonPainting.png, Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton has the distinction of being the last person sent down from Oxford for duelling. Now if you are going to be thrown out of your place of learning, that is one which leaves a person's honour unimpaired!

I always thought that Burton would make a great basis for a steampunk character, he certainly had the peppery temperament. A soldier, a scholar, and a traveller in equal parts. As must have occurred to the author of those Riverword books. He was a fascinating character, when he went to Mecca disguised as a Pathan he inserted a jewel under his skin, which then healed over, to give him some capital if he was ever robbed. From his accounts of travels in disguise, he would sometimes explode with violent anger, so his fellow travellers would just leave him alone, regarding him (rightly) as a dangerius psychopath. He had a great line of insults too. An old woman jostled him, he called her in arabic "hoori of Jehannum" (whore from Hell)! On being insulted "I spit on your father" he replied "I would spit on yours if I knew which of thy mother's many admirers was thine".

My word...I love this guy!  " ... used to hint dark horrors about Burton, and certainly justly or unjustly he was disliked, feared and suspected ... not for what he had done, but for what he was believed capable of doing."  -THAT WAS ME IN COLLEGE!  I also have a later translation of one the books he translated....  

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are no pictures, I bought it for the scholarship.  It is quite an interesting text and I do believe does not live up to its reputation. 

I have insulted people in a similar manner as well. 

[Tito Alba]

He was indeed a great man.  It was these real life characters that first interested me in all things Victorian.  The truth was far stranger than the fiction!

[celephicus]

I have never found a biography that does him justice. If you want to actually know what he was like, I recommend his story of his pilgrimage to Mecca A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah. It went through several editions, in one delightful instance Burton added a footnote (a section of text in smaller type under the main text) to an existing footnote! What larks those Victorians had!

I read one of his East Africa books, perhaps the one where he received a spear through both his cheeks(!). It was a great read. Igor still curses him for not taking an autoreloading anti-personnel steam blunderbuss to deal with those pesky native Johnnies. Personally I could never make it through any of his translations, and the "sexual" works are exactly the opposite, inducing an irresistable desire to sleep in the reader.

To the responder who has insulted people in a similar manner. I wish you well in future lives :]. I remember a conference which Saddam Hussein attended with other leaders from the region. It dispersed in acrimony, with the attendees shouting "I curse your moustache" and "Thou son of a monkey", obviously (for the culture) deadly insults!

[Capt. Dirigible]

I always thought that Burton would make a great basis for a steampunk character,

You're clearly not familiar with Mark Hodder's two excellent books 'The Strange Case Of Spring Heeled Jack' and 'The Curious Case of the Clockwork Man' in which Sir Richard Francis Burton is indeed a steampunk hero!

[Doctor Obsidian]

Not exactly Steampunk per se But the 1892 duel between Princess Pauline Metternich and Countess Kielmannsegg in  Liechtenstein, also known as the first emancipated duel.

The oddest part of the duel was not that they were women but that it was conducted topless.  Not for any erotic reasons, (though artist have explored this aspect with paintings and etchings).  It was in-fact the Baroness Lubinska, who presided over the duel who insisted that the women remove their clothing above their waists to avoid infection in the event that a sword pushed clothing into the wound it caused. The baroness had seen many instances of septic infection in soldiers for this very reason throughout her years of medical training.

Below is an extract of the duel.

At the dueling ground on the fateful day, all formalities were carried out to the letter including an attempt at and refusal of reconciliation. The ladies engaged and, after a few trifling feints and thrusts, a wild slash from the princess brought about a light flow of blood from the countess’ nose. Seeing the injury she caused, the shocked princess, in a stereotypical feminine gesture, threw both hands up to her cheeks. Just then, the countess lunged and pierced the princess through her right forearm. The sight of the ensuing blood caused the respective seconds to faint. The footmen and coachmen, who had been ordered to stand some distance away with their backs toward the action, heard the cries and ran toward the women to render aid. Baroness Lubinska, however, decided the male servants had more salacious motives and attacked them with her umbrella, shouting, “Avert your eyes, avert your eyes — you lustful wretches!”

Probably been mentioned before  but worth repeating.

[D.Oakes]

Not exactly Steampunk per se But the 1892 duel between Princess Pauline Metternich and Countess Kielmannsegg in  Liechtenstein, also known as the first emancipated duel.

The oddest part of the duel was not that they were women but that it was conducted topless.  Not for any erotic reasons, (though artist have explored this aspect with paintings and etchings).  It was in-fact the Baroness Lubinska, who presided over the duel who insisted that the women remove their clothing above their waists to avoid infection in the event that a sword pushed clothing into the wound it caused. The baroness had seen many instances of septic infection in soldiers for this very reason throughout her years of medical training.

Below is an extract of the duel.

At the dueling ground on the fateful day, all formalities were carried out to the letter including an attempt at and refusal of reconciliation. The ladies engaged and, after a few trifling feints and thrusts, a wild slash from the princess brought about a light flow of blood from the countess’ nose. Seeing the injury she caused, the shocked princess, in a stereotypical feminine gesture, threw both hands up to her cheeks. Just then, the countess lunged and pierced the princess through her right forearm. The sight of the ensuing blood caused the respective seconds to faint. The footmen and coachmen, who had been ordered to stand some distance away with their backs toward the action, heard the cries and ran toward the women to render aid. Baroness Lubinska, however, decided the male servants had more salacious motives and attacked them with her umbrella, shouting, “Avert your eyes, avert your eyes — you lustful wretches!”

Probably been mentioned before  but worth repeating.

This calls for a reenactment! 

[celephicus]

You're clearly not familiar with Mark Hodder's two excellent books 'The Strange Case Of Spring Heeled Jack' and 'The Curious Case of the Clockwork Man' in which Sir Richard Francis Burton is indeed a steampunk hero!

I shall send my man out immediately to procure me copies of these important research works! Groom! Harness the electro-horse and charge the Leyden jars with a surfeit of the electric fluid!

[TVC15]

I remember a film "Those Daring Young Men in Their Flying Machines" in which the German team fights a duel with the French team (memory's a little off as to the nationalities). The selection of weapons: Balloons and blunderbusts. The film is pretty dated (hell, so am I) but i do recall a rather amusing scene where both parties find their way back to the ground via quickly deflating balloons.

[Mr. Bertram A. Lisney]

     I am opposed to any form of duelling, it is not a civilized way to settle a dispute. Also, if you have gotten to a point in which violence would actually be an acceptable solution to settle a dispute, there's no point trying to be gentlemanly about it, that would be oxymoronic. Be a combat pragmatist.

Though I would agree with you on the grander scale of things, mein Kapitan, I would suggest that there is nothing in the least bit pragmatic about Steampunk.  Whirling gears?  Cogs and chains and boilers?  Brassy bits?  It's all, quite frankly, inefficient.  And were one to be pragmatic about combat, they would seek ultimate efficacy, I should think.

So, as steampunk calls upon an bygone era of lofty sensibilities and cranks it up to eleven, I see no reason for duels to be had, provided they are had in balloons, or with giant robots, or what have you.  To do anything less would be mundane, banal, predictable, unoriginal; overall and most of all, unforgivably boring!

Mind you, of course, there were scurrilous, unrefined, ungentlemanly sorts about at all times, so it's no stretch of the imagination to suppose that there must be some combat pragmatist in the age of steam...undoubtedly some sort of Airship pirate scoundrel...French, I'm thinking...Goatee...

Though I tend to think swashbucklers (even French ones) would hesitate to knee someone in the groin, gouge his eye, and rip his ear.  It's just not done!

[D.Oakes]

I just read that quite a few states, including Pennsylvania do not have laws against citizens dueling.  A few have prohibitions against the National Guard or politicians doing so and of course the US Military code prohibits it.  That would be an interesting court case:

Prosecutor: "You openly admit to the court that you killed that man!"
Defendant:  "Yes, but I must point out, you cannot try me as we had agreed to a duel.  Our seconds tried their best to stop it, but in the end we could only settle it with swords."
Prosecutor:  "IT IS MURDER!?"
Defendant:  "Technically no as he was also trying to kill me."  

I am suddenly intrigued by this idea.  

[Capt. Dirigible]

I remember a film "Those Daring Young Men in Their Flying Machines" in which the German team fights a duel with the French team (memory's a little off as to the nationalities). The selection of weapons: Balloons and blunderbusts. The film is pretty dated (hell, so am I) but i do recall a rather amusing scene where both parties find their way back to the ground via quickly deflating balloons.

If I recall , Gert Frobe..who plays the German, accidentally punctures his balloon with his picklehaub..

[andrew craven]

This looks like an excellent spot to repost this:

Blur Studio - A Gentlemen's Duel [HQ]

 The Gentlemen's Duel short animation was the first thing I thought soon as the absurd duel in the balloons was initially mentioned lol
Fascinating concept in the balloons, you can just picture the hilarity of it, seems so funny...I must do some art on this. As for the animation, its one of my favourite steampunk capers. The best example of steampunk dueling...dressed to impress, luxurious machines and riddled with tea and sex! All the calories a steampunk covets! 

[Captain Lyerly]

Inefficient combat on the Field of Honour...

Hmmm... this brings to mind perhaps a very Steampunk set of duelling weapons.  Imagine the scene - in the gray and misty light of an October dawn.  The rosewood case is brought forward; the seconds examine the weapons carefully, and agree they are matched, even indistinguishable.  The challenged party selects, then the challenger.  All is in readiness.  They stand, back to back.  The count is made; they step off three paces, turn, and each hurls his hand-engraved, silver-inlaid, perfectly proportioned duelling hand grenade.



Cheers!

Chas.

[celephicus]

I remember a film "Those Daring Young Men in Their Flying Machines" in which the German team fights a duel with the French team (memory's a little off as to the nationalities). The selection of weapons: Balloons and blunderbusts. The film is pretty dated (hell, so am I) but i do recall a rather amusing scene where both parties find their way back to the ground via quickly deflating balloons.

"Blunderbusts"? Sounds like a Benny Hill joke (actually he was in the fillum in question). "Mein Kaiser ve cannot continue ze duel: those decadent French swein have unshipped their Blunderbusts... And our Zeppelin ist deflating!""".

I must stop now as I am reading about the topless duel held (obviously on Ladies Night).

[TVC15]

"Blunderbusts"? Sounds like a Benny Hill joke (actually he was in the fillum in question). "Mein Kaiser ve cannot continue ze duel: those decadent French swein have unshipped their Blunderbusts... And our Zeppelin ist deflating!""".

I must stop now as I am reading about the topless duel held (obviously on Ladies Night).

My apologies for the misspelling. It's blunderbuss, not blunderbust. It should have been called a thunderblast. And the Capt. is correct again. The German punctured his balloon with the spike of his helmet. Same helmet also was involved in a diving incident.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunderbuss

[Dr. Madd]

     I am opposed to any form of duelling, it is not a civilized way to settle a dispute. Also, if you have gotten to a point in which violence would actually be an acceptable solution to settle a dispute, there's no point trying to be gentlemanly about it, that would be oxymoronic. Be a combat pragmatist.

I disagree, really. I believe the tax burden on the people would be less if we issued a special tax stamp on dueling and legalized it in a special dueling area, oversaw by a judge and admission charged to the general public.

[Will Howard]

Maybe you & I could get the food concession for such events, Dr. Madd!  Money to be made!

[Atterton]

What is worth keeping in mind is that many duels did not go on untill one person was dead, but merely till first blood or untill one person yielded.

[TVC15]

It's a pity, in an ironic way, that dueling has evolved to two persons hiring lawyers to 'fight' it out in a court of law. Usually, the parties involved receive their share of 'disgrace' while the seconds (lawyers) get rich. Ah, civilization! Can't live with it and can't live without it.

[Mr. Boltneck]

What is worth keeping in mind is that many duels did not go on untill one person was dead, but merely till first blood or untill one person yielded.

Which always sounds nice in theory, but can be harder to carry out, I suspect. When using blades at full speed, the difference between light wounding and death may be measured in inches, unless you have some daft setup like the mensur tradition.

[D.Oakes]

It's a pity, in an ironic way, that dueling has evolved to two persons hiring lawyers to 'fight' it out in a court of law. Usually, the parties involved receive their share of 'disgrace' while the seconds (lawyers) get rich. Ah, civilization! Can't live with it and can't live without it.

Much the same way that in the middle ages "champions" were often employed in place of nobility.  I have some experience in law and actually was going to become a lawyer until I realized all the moral and ethical conflicts were just worth it to me.  

What is worth keeping in mind is that many duels did not go on untill one person was dead, but merely till first blood or untill one person yielded.

Which always sounds nice in theory, but can be harder to carry out, I suspect. When using blades at full speed, the difference between light wounding and death may be measured in inches, unless you have some daft setup like the mensur tradition.

People are naturally wimps, a small cut would have sent even the toughest into submission.  I suspect that the bulk of the deaths were lucky shots or when it was a serious case of honor.  Part of the job of the second was to negotiate an apology, it is likely they would have also been there to go, "Come on, you made him bleed, just apologize and get it over with."  

Now gouging was a practice of the lower classes that did not usually result in death, but horrible disfigurement.  Many times in America that was made illegal before dueling because even though it was not as deadly, it was also not pretty on any level. 

[Dr. Madd]

What is worth keeping in mind is that many duels did not go on untill one person was dead, but merely till first blood or untill one person yielded.

That's fine, too. Still fine entertainment.

Get your programs here! You can't tell the Duelist from the second without a program.

[TVC15]

This is starting to remind me of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" where King Arthur is fighting the Black Knight.

[Dr. Madd]

It's a pity, in an ironic way, that dueling has evolved to two persons hiring lawyers to 'fight' it out in a court of law. Usually, the parties involved receive their share of 'disgrace' while the seconds (lawyers) get rich. Ah, civilization! Can't live with it and can't live without it.

Lawyers, the beginning of the wussification of society