Okay What is the Deal with these goings ons.

[SeVeNeVeS]

Deja Vu ?

SteampunkObserver http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=17498

~SeVeN~

[TimeTinker]

The problem Kougi2011 is really with your second post where some friendly answers started to get fired back on.  You have come over as beliigerent and conceited.  This may not be intentional. It may be poor wordcraft (there have been comments about paragraphs etc and your punctuation can be confusing.)  If I may:

bicyclebuilder I am here and that's enough if not then fine ill leave.
And to you two, my frustration is about turning something that we hold dear and near to us into a novelty and a fashion parade instead of a genre, do you understand?

 Yes we understand that entirely and there are numerous threads on bandwagon jumping, commercial exploitation etc.
 

Forgetting where you came from in terms of a movement or genre and cheapening the meaning of it by taking it like it is just a Halloween costume cheap and uninspired is not the direction that people should go

My emphasis. This is your main problem.  You are telling people they should not do with steampunk what they wish.  YOU DO NOT HAVE THIS RIGHT.

I am sorry some people have a problem with that but you don't have to reply.

You are posting on boards where we have conversations, debate points etc and you began with a question inviting answers.  If you do not wish to interact or be answered you should be posting a rant on a blog or similar.  You should not invite reply if you don't want to hear it.

before then you will have a split off and it won't be as unique or inspired

This sounds as though you are claiming prescience or are demanding conformity.  Neither is going to sit well.

take for instance cyberpunk, A genre that inspired steampunk.

Incorrect - actually a genre that is drawn upon by some steampunks but hardly inspiring steampunk.

...genre has a past and a present and future

There is that word again.  Perhaps wise to put it to bed in that steampunk is an awful lot more than a genre now.

 All that i am saying is that What i am seeing at Cons and such is (some) people who don't have a true love of it

my insert  I think that you must have seen some people at cons who do "have a true love of it".  

are taking it to the same lame things that ruined other genres of creativity all for the "look" of the thing or don't research real history or the essence of the genre.

 but that is actually their right.  You do not have the right to say they cannot do what they wish to do.  Even if you did you have no way of controlling or policing it.

Just dressing up with non steampunk items and barely trying and running around saying hey we are steampunk and it has nothing to do with it, is just appalling and then people think hey that is what steampunk must be like.  

 You may find it appalling and no doubt there are many here who would agree but the simple answer is "tough, that is the way things are."

What that does is it ruins the idea of what it is.

Massive leap here.  These people are not ruining my idea of what steampunk is.    Many here enjoy their steampunk and at an extremely high standard.

SO please spare me your prattle

May I suggest that this little gem of an aggressive phrase could perhaps have been directed more introspectively?

and please think a little higher than what you think i am saying and actually see what i am saying.

Unfortunately we are reacting to what we are reading.  If you are not getting your message across this is your failing to convey your message not the failing of the reader.

That still does not excuse others from going with the lame at the time what's popular game and movie genre and going with whatever is on

but they don't actually need an excuse do they?

i am saying that people like that just frustrate me a lot.

Fair enough and I am sure others find this frustrating too.

People who just go with what's popular that month or week and don't think for themselves.  Or offer anything that is productive and positive to the genre.

(my emphasis)and this is the crux of the matter!  YOU are not offering anything productive or positive.  You are simply moaning and complaining. That is what is frustrating and annoying people.  You say we don't have to reply but you are guilty of the crime you accuse "the lame" of.  Hypocrisy causes a backlash I am sorry to say.

You may not like the analysis above but I am genuinely trying to show you why you are meeting a contrary opinion from the posters.

You see we often have people who drop in here and try to tell us how to be steampunk or how not to be steampunk.  In being told we take offence.

You have two options:
1) Start asking and try and listen to the replies to learn what steampunk means to people here or
2) Start showing us what your kind of steampunk is.  If it is good it will inspire people.  Let your art do the talking perhaps.

Your post of 06:38:16 shows you have an understanding of what may have gone on.

Opinions are always welcome.  This place does not expect nor demand total agreement. You may not be trying to offend but you have (as you have realised) been offensive.
You do not have to be sorry for holding differing views.  It is polite to apologise for being offensive.

[Kougi2011]

Thank you Professor Oilcan, though i do not agree with your opinions entirely I will say that I do appreciate them.
I would enjoy a good friendly discussion, On anything and actually get to know more people. I would be happy to.
I will continue to state my opinion however I will try to understand the forum a little better but that doesn't mean I will conform to it entirely.
I am still unique to myself and will continue to talk in my own way.  IF there is a misunderstanding then merely ask me and i shall respond to it.
I am more than happy to respond politely and honestly. I can guarantee that i will respond unique to me and there for not a round peg in a round hole.
I will try to be more diverse in my responses as i am to those whom respond to me, or discuss things with me.

I thank you very much, this is very exciting to me to be apart of this.

[Professor Oilcan]

Thank you Professor Oilcan, though i do not agree with your opinions entirely I will say that I do appreciate them.
I would enjoy a good friendly discussion, On anything and actually get to know more people. I would be happy to.
I will continue to state my opinion however I will try to understand the forum a little better but that doesn't mean I will conform to it entirely.
I am still unique to myself and will continue to talk in my own way.  IF there is a misunderstanding then merely ask me and i shall respond to it.
I am more than happy to respond politely and honestly. I can guarantee that i will respond unique to me and there for not a round peg in a round hole.
I will try to be more diverse in my responses as i am to those whom respond to me, or discuss things with me.

I thank you very much, this is very exciting to me to be apart of this.

No one on here has wanted you to be a round peg in a round hole, this is just what we have been talking about with steampunk being an individual process, we are all different on here and I welcome you here and hope to have many discussions with you over time, be honest but be polite that is all we ask for here.

It is good that you are excited to be here and I hope to see your artwork very soon.

[Kougi2011]

Thank you again, I am very happy to be additive to the process. My ideal of steam punk has not changed but the depths of it has.  
Unfortunately I am not in the position to add any art at this time but When i do, I do expect people to like and dislike what i have done and that'
s fine.  

[Just call me Rob]

One more thing.
[paraphrasing] You say that you're going to stick with your views of steampunk, and that you don't like it when people tell you that your opinions are wrong - that's great.

But, bear in mind that your first few posts were doing just that to other people.
You were saying that other people were doing it badly and their opinions were wrong.

Unintentional irony at best, blatany hypocrisy at worse.

Chill out. Look around.
Join in some positive threads.
Try getting involved in discussions about doing steampunk things which are often much more fun and friendly discussions compared to trying to define steampunk.

[Kougi2011]

TimeTinker  I respect your opinion.  I want to be apart of this place its really one of the best places on the web.

There will always be those who think what someone else says is offensive.  

I am here I asked a question, the responses made me feel offended and no one apologized for it.  Yet as you stated i did learn what others were talking about.  
Applied it to my thinking and made a decision.  Naturally i am a polite person.  I am sorry others didn't get to see that.  I was frustrated and let you all know i was.
Therefore a understanding of that should have come but was met with offense.  So it takes more than one person to be offensive. One can not be offensive alone and be sane can they?
The same question applies to politeness.  

I did not want to have to go to the introduction page and begin there.  I like discussion I like on occasions heated discussions.
I suppose how i said things on a internet forum are very different and i am not normally used to that. I had to change a little bit my own thinking.
I am glad i did.  I see you disagree with what i said about people. Good. I am glad you do.  Thank you for that. I wanted to know but more over i wanted to know what people thought of situations like that. You made your opinion clear.  Again sir, YOU made your opinion clear. Because some may agree with you doesn't change the fact that it is still your opinion and Just in case you think I am trying to insult you I assure you i am not and I am very respectful of that opinion. My opinion is different and that may cause clashes but i am not here to tell people what they should and should not do.

I am here to discuss what they do and to debate or discuss the Merritt of each.  As i see your use of quotes does.  Everyone is different here I know. My vision of steam punk too is different. How i say it may change as i learn to use the forum and add to it. My personality will not therefore so too will my words stay.  I am polite and honest.  

you stated that i am " You are simply moaning and complaining."  

Yes, i am but with reason and opinion of what i see.  You don't like it , I understand. Others don't like it that too I understand.  
What i said is my opinion.  This is a discussion part of the forums.  When i have art or things i have done then i shall post them in their appropriate areas.  No offense.
I had a issue with something i felt was hurting the genre. Yes it is a genre in my opinion. That word means and encompasses the world i see when i think of steam punk.
You are correct it is rude for someone to come to a forum to post things and try to control people, i ask you aren't the people here through their frustration trying to do the same to me?

I don't like it when people try to tell me about something they know nothing about nor care about. At the very least sir, you can say with honestly [at least i would] that i do truly care and love this genre of sci fi known as steam punk.

I do have a disagreement with your posting of cyberpunk. To me a genre that is drawn upon is apart of the definition of Inspire.  Not the whole definition yes but apart of it.  

I do appreciate your candidness with me and I have learned from you but it is up to me to make up my mind.  I love steam punk and i see more depth to it now more than before and it is because of this discussion that i do.  

Thank you TimeTinker I hope to get to know you more.

[Kougi2011]

Thank you just call me rob.  I appreciate that and i would love to be apart of those discussions.
Rob I know you disagree with what i said but that's part of a discussion and the learning process involved with that.  No offense that's just what i understand a discussion to be.

[greensteam]

For a variety of reasons, I sadly wasnt able to attend the seminar at last year's Lincoln Asylum on the similarities and differences between SP in the Uk vs USA, but I am wondering, having whizzed through this thread, if some of what is going on here may be the Great Cultural Divide?

I THINK (ok shoot me doon in flames folks) that what carries us together in the UK SP community, online and at meets, are more about shared values than about specific appearances. For instance:
We VALUE wonderful homemade outfits but we still WELCOME anyone who has made even a modest effort, if it is in the right spirit. SP is not historically accurate re-enactment, there are other places for that.
We VALUE our armed services and the study of weaponry of all times and dimensions, but we BEHAVE calmly and without agression.
We VALUE the victorian courtesies but ESTEEM the complete equalities of genders, races etc etc of the modern era.
We VALUE the open camaraderie when seeing a stranger in SP gear but try to ensure no one remains a stranger for long.

In the UK we find that those who dont like the open welcoming atmosphere The Major has insisted upon dont return.......

[Just call me Rob]

That's certainly possible Greensteam, I wondered the self.
I also wonder if there's another divide.

Kougi2011, do you mind if I ask how old you are?
I've no interest in mocking you for being young if you are, but I'm just trying to understand the differences in our approaches to a discussion.

[Kougi2011]

TO be honest I agree with those things as well I just differ.

TO answer your question i am 31.

[TimeTinker]

Kougi2011 Thank you for your response.  I hope that whilst you may have started exhibiting the same tendencies as many of the trolls who have popped up here you are actually genuinely trying to participate.  

If I have been offensive in my posts then I apologise for that unreservedly although I stress that has not been my intention.  

You are mistaken on a couple of points.  As I said in my response to your second post some of your points you will find people (including myself) who may agree with you.

Whilst I may venture opinions on many things there are a few facts in my response including one:

You do not have the right to tell people how to address their steampunk.  Nor do you have the power to enforce or police that.  It is this fact that people are having trouble with especially when you state opinions as facts yourself.

Phrasing things differently may help:

"take for instance cyberpunk, A genre that inspired steampunk."   could become
"take for instance cyberpunk, a genre that has inspired many steampunks" It is far less contentious but gets the same message across. You would have voiced an opinion rather than putting up a target to be knocked down.

As for steampunk being a genre may I draw your attention to the following thread.  You may find it interesting?
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31628.0

If I can offer a single piece of advice on the venturing of opinions about steampunk it would be: "Remember that your experience of steampunk is definitive and exhaustive for you and you alone.  Everyone's experience is different." (Wish I could always remember that myself. )

[The Abiliegh]

A Collections of Observations:

1. I find it humorous that whenever we get one of these inflamatory threads, there always seems to be a group of people accusing the poster of being the last fellow to have done so. This is humorous to me because it seems to imply that these people are shocked by the existance of more than one idividual capable of displaying this kind of behaivor, when, in fact, it's the very rampantness of that brash, impolite personality that that makes our forum (and Steampunk in general) shine as a beacon of polite, mannerly society.

2. Kougi: Thank you for the addition of punctuation in your later posts. It is far easier to focus on what you are trying to convey when it is not put forth as a giant "wall of text". That said, I'm confused by your desire to be part of something that you admit is "one of the best places on the web" when combined with your refusal to act as a cohesive part of that entity. From what I *do* understand of your posts, you seem to take the opinion of "You can't please everybody" and use it as an excuse not to try to do so regardless. What is being asked in response to that apparently flippiant lack of courtesy is that you simply take a moment to try to be polite. Your posts have become more civil, to be certain, but while the tone of your posts have improved, the sentiments conveyed have not yet caught up. I'd like to note that this isn't asking you to change your opinions, but simply the method and the purpose to which you deliver them. We understand that you are passionate, but please keep in mind that preachers and dictators both are passionate in their public speach.

3. I seem to find myself compeled to read over a previously disregarded thread after I see that JCM Rob and TimeTinker have posted a few times. You gentlemen are truly a delight, and I value your eloquent opinions and your level heads in a way that inspires me to investigate my own further. So, thank you!

4. As to the actual topic. Yes, I'm regularly frustrated by people. But that has little to do with their level of steampunk  involvement/aptitude/creativity and the like. Mostly, I just don't like people, at least not until they've proven to me to be something beyond a drone. What has been suggested to me, and what I will pass on, is that I take a moment to actually suss out the nature of a person or a group prior to my making unchangeable judgements. Frustrating as it may be to engage in conversation with the newbie steampunk wearing a second-rate get- up and a nerf gun, I've often discovered that they are actually rather thirtsy for learning how to do it better. And for the ones that aren't... well, a girl has got to get her mean out somewhere.

[TimeTinker]

Very nicely said Abi.  Sometimes a new voice can sing the clearest song.  Bravo.

[The Abiliegh]

Very nicely said Abi.  Sometimes a new voice can sing the clearest song.  Bravo.

I thank you for the compliment, good sir, and I do so hope that it is warranted!

[DrArclight]

Being from the US, I don't think this is a cultural difference issue.  In fact, having spent a bit of time with the Steampunks in my state at a recent convention I was beginning to wonder if we weren't considered a bit less orthodox than those on the other side of the pond, particularly regarding the "random glued-on cogs" aspect.  For instance, one of the representatives of the Airship Isabella at the con looked to me like he had figured out how to magically turn his body into a brass magnet then took a stroll through a clock shop.  It was seriously layered on to the point of looking a bit over the top to me, but then the Isabella is supposed to be a group of pirates, so Over the Top is a bit expected.

And then there were the few random youngsters running around in t-shirts, jeans, and flip-flops with a pair of brass or stainless steel goggles on their heads or around their necks.  I'd just have to smile every time I saw that because I knew that somewhere out there there was a person who would be driven near to apoplexy if they saw that because "they're doing it wrong".

One of the panels addressed this very thing though.  Apparently at a previous con one of the audience members sort of went off on a rant about "proper steampunk".   Nathaniel Johnstone (I believe it was) was sitting in on the panel and rather inebriated.  He stands up, interrupts the ranter with something along the lines of "What makes your neo-victorian retro-futuristic version of an alternate reality any better than mine?" and promptly passes out.

I think that pretty much sums it up.  Who are you, (or I or anyone else for that matter) to dictate what is and is not steampunk?  By what Authority do you dictate the rules? What makes your neo-victorian retro-futuristic version of an alternate reality any better than anyone else's?  Most of the people that I've met that are involved with Steampunk in any way shape or form are involved because it's fun.  They enjoy it.  If the other people you're meeting are frustrating you to the point that it's lessening your enjoyment of being a Steampunk, then maybe it's time to step back, take a long look at why you decided to get into this and why you want to stay.

No matter how much you love something, if other people are involved in it there is going to need to be room for compromise.  If you insist on things always being just your way, then you're eventually going to find yourself alienated from the thing you love because you've managed to make all the other people around you miserable.  

[TimeTinker]

Just a quick reply on the issue of cultural differences:

I do not believe this is a cultural issue here but it is an experential one. Kougi2011's views are a product of  his? experiences although of course there will be some differences that are generated by the Atlantic divide.

I must say DrArclight that I find your comment about "orthodoxy" with regards to appearance amusing.  Trust me that this is something people strive to avoid over here.  The only "orthodoxy" is one of polite conduct and acceptance of individual interpretations so this actually encourages diversity in appearance.

I have been lucky enough to attend steampunk cons in the UK, US and Canada (as far as I know a priveledge only shared with three other individuals to date). There are different "flavours" without a doubt.  That does not demand any value judgements over which "flavour" is better.  Quite the opposite.  if I didn;t like trying all of the flavours I would stay at home.

Anyway - I don't wish to derail this thread but am more than happy to discuss this topic on another thread should anyone be interested.

[Mr. Boltneck]

I have to agree with Dr. Arclight and TimeTinker, that I don't think that this is down to any sort of "cultural divide." Many good, sensible responses have already been posted, and I can add only a little to them at this point.

However: I must take issue with one facet that I see in Kougi2011's thesis, and that is the notion that when the rest of the world starts finding out about something, and putting it in fashion, art, movies, etc. that somehow it's Game Over. In particular, that it somehow devalues anything which he might, at some point, create. I take issue with this for a number of reasons, the first being that while we as a group may have drawn attention to a range of retro-futurist material and 19th Century-based style, we ourselves have been drawing on this same range of references for some years, and while we may have pioneered some aspects, we hardly are in a position to lay claim to it exclusively. The second is that if someone does something creative in any medium, from any starting place, it may have merit on its own, irrespective of what others are doing. Hollywood has no power to devalue it, unless someone completely rips it off, in which case you may have an intellectual property claim, which is a separate matter entirely.

One of my favorite examples, to get concrete about it, is the Man With No Name. He first appears in a couple of samurai flicks, Yojimbo and Sanjuro, played by Toshiro Mifune. These films were openly acknowledged to have been inspired by American westerns. Next, the MWNN appears in a series of spaghetti westerns by Leone, one of them directly following one of the Japanese plotlines, and he's played by Eastwood. In most respects, I would argue that the MWNN is also the basis for The Road Warrior, which also has a very "western" plot, strongly reminiscent of John Ford, even though it's now set in a future dystopia. Three genres, one character, thematically similar plots...and nobody, except perhaps the late Pauline Kael, would consider any of these movies anything but landmarks of their eras. Each of them brought something new to the table.

[andrew craven]

Your a passionate guy/gal Kougi. My apologies if I didnt see the gender in your huge colourful graffiti mural of text.
 I once heard a story about two punk bands....The Buzzcocks and The Sex Pistols. There was a disagreement on who should be called which and so in all PUNK zeal they both threw physical punches, tables, chairs, guitars and bottles of cheap cider at each other in this locked room. In the end when they came out, after a few cuts, grazes and bruises and a completely destroyed room, they agreed on who should be called The Sex Pistols and who should be the Buzzcocks..hence...or rather formerly was... the bands you see now/or back then.
 The thing is they are both named after a man-servant in a tongue in cheek way in anycase...(I wonder if it was the same for Mr Jester...I mean Jeter with steampunk...like Jekyl & Hyde or something)...afterall all that "what a man has got to do, a man has got to do" lark they are very much the same name and same ethos! Like what I see here.  
 You have sprayed your expression on BG for all to see and others have come along to spray over or by it with the way they think it ought to look. (No offence to my dear responders on this thread). And you seem to be agreeing with what is being splashed and said which is kind of cool because, despite that you dont want to get diluted yourself, socially your all for being a good person. Well who doesnt...we're all goats crossing a bridge and then we are hungry trolls on here if you get my meaning. Otherwise we wouldnt bother with such forums

 Steampunk diluting...in my opinion, steampunk in its raw and truest form is being diluted with every sale a steampunk makes with her or his creations, with every convention and event we have to sell/buy tickets for too. We are very much the same as Punk and Cyber and Goth in this way as a modern fashion perspective and we are all falling to that one evil we are constantly knawed at in our lives...that is the consumer world...yet we cant live without this bain. And we love it. In fact, many of us work towards it even if they dont mean to! But its the way of things I guess.

As steampunks, we are embracing our own individuality whether it be mischeivous, trolling or graceful. Human fool to wisdom etc. As mere people we are diplomatic out of creative survival. Steampunk community is not absolute...I myself question this "community" as it is flawed in itself. But each steampunk individual means well for their own merits. I say this because I understand about rudeness. The people here are no different than yourself where rudness is concerned. For rudness, who are we to judge who are being rude when we are rude by flagging it. From what I have seen I dont see any rudness from yourself because I did not see any direct verbal/texting attack on anyone or any such name calling and threats and the such. It just looks like they are all taking it politically personal in parliment with what is said on the subject of Steampunk with a passion.

 I look forward to what you interpret in your planned creations and what you have to say on such subjects and discussions of concept etc in the future. Keep it real!

[Just call me Rob]

I would argue that the MWNN is also the basis for The Road Warrior,

I can let you into as secret on that one.
His name is Max Rockastancy. (or something like that)


I do remember lots of fans of the Japanese flicks complaining that the Westerns had ripped off the Yojimbo films and they shuold be ashamed.
Later when they learned that these were originally inspired by westerns these angry people went a bit quiet.

Anyway - back on track - whatever it was.

[Captain Brandsson]

As for bandwagoners, even if you are unwilling to accept that they can make any contribution to the community in terms of ideas, surely you must accept they are useful for something: they are what you may call "bums on seats". That is, their fleeting fascination with steampunk injects cash. Without bandwagoners, or with a more elite definition of steampunk, we wouldn't be able to afford the events we have. We'd have too many makers and not enough buyers (that's not to say long-haulers have to be makers, just that bandwagoners tend to be buyers.) Like 'em or not, they actually fulfil an important role in the steampunk ecosystem.

Very well put.  I will be incorporating those ideas into my philosophy, if I may.

[Kougi2011]

Timetinker helped me to see that this forum BG, is a very different forum and much loved affair.
That honesty is welcomed but done so, in a way that is helpful and not for misinterpretation.
I gave a message as he says that didn't come across like i wanted it to.  I don't mean i have to be politically correct,
I mean that this world has a different feel to me that i was ignorant of its common ways.  When one moves into a new neighborhood,
or one they wanted to live in they see that there are new styles and new ways to do the same thing but in that way.

I personally am glad that people are talking to me that people are active in this thread.  Though i admit my view isn't right for everyone.
My question and the presentation of it wasn't in the way that gave to conversation of the subject and not the presenter.  I am glad to hear all these
views. I am happy to know that i am learning new things.

My personal view of steam punk is right for me and anyone who agrees with me, On the same coin i do not expect nor want to control what others do or think about the same genre.
AS others have said, everyone is different and that difference brings new ideas and new genres to the world of sci fi and any other genre out there.

I want to say that people who want to get started into steam punk shouldn't be afraid of being creative with what they have. That is one of the attractive things about this steam punk.  
It's just been my opinion from my world that i see so many genres and products being affected by these types of things.  Not all growth and not all ideas are constructive. That doesn't mean that those people can't create something new and enjoy that.  It just seems that those who try to define steam punk to people this genre is hard to get a grasp of with out a central theme.

One person mentioned that he showed his mates the display of the museum, that made me think wow well that's great and if they really had a good presentation and showed some of the unique items and variations on a central theme that people can get a grasp of quickly that the quality of that display and presentation would lead the new people to better grasp the greatness of this steam punk.

In example to what i am saying is that my presentation that timetinker helped me with was an example of having a good or unusual idea that was presented in a unclear or unusual way that people misunderstood. What if that presentation was something that people who know nothing about steam punk had?   What if the reaction that happened after it was the reaction of those people?  These are my concerns.  SO my quest was to find if anyone else here had concerns about this, Take a look at any image search in google, or flickr.  I have seen images so diverse that I don't really know how to explain or describe steam punk to others because if i showed that then what would they think and then when i explain what i want to do they can't clearly have a idea in their head that its the same genre or that it is one of the oldest ideas in that world. IT gets muddled.  

This is only my point with what i said. And as i said my presentation was hasty and filled with my emotion.  So this simple concern got lost in that. For that i sincerely apologize.

[Captain Brandsson]

Kougi seems to be getting their footing so I would like to proceed in good faith...

While I do not agree that the problem that frustrates you is really a problem (or, more correctly, it is not a problem for all of us as a community despite being a real problem for you and other individuals), I am happy to temporarily open to your mindset for the sake of exploration.

It is in that spirit that I ask you "What is the solution?"

[andrew craven]

 I guess we all got to take the rough with the smooth, even in the steampunk. I do see that other particular inadvertant diluting as you say. Fools they maybe, but I guess we have to be patient with them with the hope that they will learn more with what they can do in time other than buying from a ready-made line of steampunk clothing...or even adhering to a certain aesthetic as typical etc. This has happened with goth and cyber and punk in itself with these ready made clothes. A contrast to the garments or object d'art or even technology that is assembled by the tinkerers, dabblers and makers who have a firm grasp of the ethos and its wide array of knowledge that can be adopted. Art for Art's sakes...Beauty for Beauty's sakes etc

[TimeTinker]

Then may I offer a genuine welcome to Brassgoggles Kougi2011.

It is a somewhat unusual place on the internet.  We strive for polite conduct as much as we are able.  We often argue and disagree because passions run strong.  However we argue in such a way as to avoid offence if we can.

You seem to be finding your feet now and I look forward to interacting with you further.