Okay What is the Deal with these goings ons.

[Kougi2011]

Okay, So .... I have noticed that many many many SP'ers are these days doing, more um well mainstream punk.

Why kougi2011 what do you mean mainstream?

Well what i mean is They are doing what game manufacturers and movie makers are doing.  Come on have you guessed it yet?
No? Then here, I mean they are doing more world war and world war 2 era punk. My question here is why? why are they doing this?
could it be because of the lack of "modern" amenities like cars and more modern game like outfits in Classic Period punk?

To be honest i do have a bias. I love the period i believe and call "period Punk"  Which is the Classic 19th century era time. I don't just mean later century i mean
1800 - 1910. Yes i am including that year because that is the whole period of that era.   World war one didn't even start till 1914. I guess my gripe here is that i see so many people leaving behind the classic era to i suppose "better" go along with their world war 1 and 2 games and movies like sky captain and  sucker punch.  I see more and more people leaving their Victorian Dresses at home and using pants and materials more suited to military and Zeppelin Luftwaffe.  Listen I get it, it's an exciting era all the machines and stuff lends itself to that steampunk style but honestly. If the cosplayers and folks who really care about this stuff just let the Victorian part of Steampunk go away then What do we have? Just another cosplay genre? another unique thing shared over the world like Visual kei was that just became dress up time?  Honestly I feel like we are loosing our genre to this kinda crap and it makes me very upset.

Anyways What do you all think? weigh in and let me know.

Personally speaking for me I believe in the Genre as a whole but favor the Classic period of Victoria.  Yes i truly love Western Steampunk too since i am AMERICAN!!! ^_^

[TimeTinker]

Steampunk is a living breathing community.  As such it has fashions and trends.  One person goes for the different and unusual to express their individuality and it inspires many others but this continues and the focus of interest will return. 

There are just as many with late Victorian inspiration as the two World Wars.  We don't see an awful lot of mid Victorian inspiration and very little early Victorian nut I suspect this will change.

Fashion has cycles.  They come back around and there will always be people at the cutting edge and others behind the trends.  It will remain mixed and long may it do so.

The military look always becomes popular when nations are at war.  Look at the Napoleonic period with fashionable ladies wearing uniform style jackets etc.  Much of the World is currently at war so military is popular.

As ever with steampunk I advocate the ploughing of one's own furrow and self expression rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing.  If you are creative and expressive then people will be inspired by what you do.

It is more effective to encourage through inspiration rather than to discourage by decrying what you do not like.

[lilibat]

Not me. 

[bicyclebuilder]

Like TimeTinker said, don't worry about others. Encourage what you like on others and keep an open mind. For me, Steampunk is "looking into the future from a Victorian point of view". Technology, fasion and living was rapidly changing at the Victorian era, so futuristic views would include fictive wars, vehicles, clothes. So, in a way, WW1 and WW2 were the future of Victorian era.

By the way Kougi2011, please introduce yourself. Ther is a thread for that.

[Captain Brandsson]

For every cluster of like-minded steampunks there is at least one other cluster of differently-minded steampunks worrying about them. 

[Jonny B. Goode]

I mean they are doing more world war and world war 2 era punk. My question here is why? why are they doing this?

What you're talking about is called Dieselpunk. It's a legitimate genre and subculture in it's own right, related to steampunk, but while steampunk grew out of Victorian science fiction, dieselpunk actually grew out of "lowbrow" street art, romancing the pulp era of the 20s through the 40s. For more information, visit dieselpunks.org or the Smoking Lounge forums (http://www.ottens.co.uk/lounge/).

[Kougi2011]

bicyclebuilder I am here and that's enough if not then fine ill leave.


And to you two, my frustration is about turning something that we hold dear and near to us into a novelty and a fashion parade instead of a genre, do you understand?
I agree that steampunk does deserve to grow and change and it is okay that there are groups of people that do change and grow and show new ideas, I do truly like that however,
Forgetting where you came from in terms of a movement or genre and cheapening the meaning of it by taking it like it is just a Halloween costume cheap and uninspired is not the direction that people should go, This is just my frustration.  I am sorry some people have a problem with that but you don't have to reply.

Honestly,  There are parts of the genre, different eras. That's amazing. However, when you break it up into "this group and that group" and you split the genre into what i have said before then you will have a split off and it won't be as unique or inspired, take for instance cyberpunk, A genre that inspired steampunk.  In fact i am sure that jeter himself would be in agreement with the fact that a genre has a past and a present and future and that growing is good but not all growth is good and staying in one spot is not healthy either.  All that i am saying is that What i am seeing at Cons and such is people who don't have a true love of it are taking it to the same lame things that ruined other genres of creativity all for the "look" of the thing or don't research real history or the essence of the genre.  

Just dressing up with non steampunk items and barely trying and running around saying hey we are steampunk and it has nothing to do with it, is just appalling and then people think hey that is what steampunk must be like. 


What that does is it ruins the idea of what it is.   It's like Linux people follow either ubuntu or KDE or suse so there are different groups of the same basic core but when you have something parading around to be linux like android and its incredibly fractured by the different versions and phones its on then people with iphones and windows phones look at that and say wow that's linux.  When it is clearly not. SO please spare me your prattle and please think a little higher than what you think i am saying and actually see what i am saying. I prefer the classic Victorian Era others prefer the more modern era.

That still does not excuse others from going with the lame at the time what's popular game and movie genre and going with whatever is on instead of actually making a contribution to a community of highly creative and very rich story telling people. Like Jeter and others of his day.  I am a child of the 80's so i know where this came from and i see where it could go and where it is and i am saying that people like that just frustrate me a lot. People who just go with what's popular that month or week and don't think for themselves.  Or offer anything that is productive and positive to the genre. They just want to be "in"  instead of actually being apart of something we all here think is great. No matter what era you go with.

P.s to your post dieselpunk is what i am saying, its not bad but if others just hop on cause its new and they can get a few snap shots off with their friends that week then how exactly does that add to either genres?  How is it good to have people who hop around so much and don't stick.  You can't throw water at a wall and expect it to stick, you need more substance or quality of the contribution.

Frustrated......

[Augustus Longeye]

You can't blame humans for 'jumping on the band-wagon'. It's what humans DO. Much as I would like it to be, it's not up to us to police our group. People will inevitably join a group for a week or two when it's either fashionable or 'cool', and then as soon as it no longer is either they'll drop it like a hot coal! Unfortunately we can't tell between these people and anyone else, and even if we could what do we do? Ban them from Steampunk? Ban them from Punk at all?
A better way of looking at it is this; people drift around social groups until they find one that either they like or the feel they  'belong' in. Maybe we should just be trying our best to welcome people in and let them feel this could be their group, rather than tell them they're "just dressing up" and should take it seriously.
Hell, some of the most Steampunk members of this forum don't take it 'seriously', and that's perfectly right! The world is quite serious enough without imposing seriousness on every aspect of living.
My point, if a little rambling, is this: it's not our job to decide if someone is just doing it to be 'in', or really interested. The people who are interested should be welcomed and helped, the people who are just part of the 'in crowd' will wander off and sort themselves out (and you can ignore them) but we should still welcome them! Otherwise we could end up giving Steampunk a very bad image, one of unrelenting rules and enforcement instead of creativity and like-mindedness.
~Longeye~

[Kougi2011]

Very good i agree to an extent and the question is this,

At what point does the dilution of people coming and going without staying on or adding anything to the meaning of the genre helpful to its survival?
No there shouldn't be all these harsh rules and such, I agree that we should be welcoming and positive.  For me and my opinion being American and loving that especially since the 4th just came,  I feel they should have a good time but leave something for the group. It doesn't have to be a huge thing maybe just having fun and enjoying it and letting others see the truth about us is a very good thing to do and contributes as well,  but to just come and be representative of something they neither care about nor will spread positive messages about doesn't help it. I am just frustrated with this and I am glad to communicate with my fellows in the steam genre.  It has been something that has been bothering me for ages.

I want to do amazing things with this genre i love so much but I feel limited by Hollywood and video games and characterizations that are based on these Cons and misrepresentations of our hearts and our true love of something Amazing in the world that Authors like Jeter and powers and blaylock wrought in their novels and imaginations. To simplify it or treat it like an amusement ride is a cheap and dirty affair that will cause a down turn among people we may wish to attract that actually has good and strong interest or even just people who are tired of the old Sci fi meams and want to try something new and will take the time to learn a little about it. Again i am just frustrated and annoyed at a situation like that.

[Just call me Rob]

Hi Kougi2011, I hope you don't find it offensive if I ask if you have posted here before under a different name?
Some of your comments and the manner of your writing remind me of a chap who joined a while back and then left.


To answer some of your points.
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with exploring the different areas of the greater world of Steampunk.
I think that Diesel and Steam are both separate entities and one and the same thing. It just depends on the manner in which they are presented at the time.
I see nothing wrong with separating or combining them as required.

I also don't think it cheapens or dilutes steampunk, instead it makes it better and helps it grow. It brings fresh water to the pond and more different beer to the party.

I don't think films such as sucker punch are influencing people – I'd say that such films came about because they were influenced by us.

I do think that there are a number of individuals on the periphery of steampunk who are making a bad attempt at costumes and props. Perhaps a little too much in the way of stuck on cogs, spray painted swimming goggles and modern clothing – but I don't let it bother me.
They'll either improve their look as they get more involved or they'll bugger off.
Either way I shall be polite and friendly to them so long as they are polite and friendly to me.

My advice, if you're willing to accept it. Is to stop fretting about what other people are doing with steampunk. Instead, do something you like with steampunk and share it with us.
Post some photos of your creations, or photos in full steamy dress.
Post a short story or some drawn pictures.
I find it's a lot more fun to get involved in the positive aspects of steampunk than to complain that others are doing it wrong.  

[bicyclebuilder]

bicyclebuilder I am here and that's enough if not then fine ill leave.
#SNIP rant#

Introducing yourself would be a polite thing to do (it's a Steampunk thing ). No need to be offencive about it.

Let me tell you a story: I used to rollerblade a lot. Started out with crappy blades with plastic truck and wheels. I went to rollerblade tours, starting with those crappy blades. Even though I was holding back the whole group, they let me tag along and helped me to gain speed. More experienced rollerbladers encouraged me to get better gear. I gradually went from crappy blades to more professional ones. Not once did anyone discourage me and tell me to stop. It's all about being polite and social.

About Steampunk: what is Steampunk to you, might not be Steampunk to another. It's like art, either you like it or you don't. You can discuss it, but remain polite and respectfull to each other.

[Captain Brandsson]

Just to make sure that I don't misunderstand you, Kougi...
If someone doesn't passionately and deeply love something, then they should avoid it altogether?
For example, I think pizza tastes good and I eat it when the mood strikes me.  I can't really cook it or comment much about it's origins (it's considered italian, but may not be, really...  I don't know).  I sometimes put pineapple on it which baffles some folks.  So, since my knowledge of pizza is not all that great and I add unusual toppings sometimes should I no longer eat and enjoy it?
Silly example, but I hope you see my point.

I say let people try steampunk on for size and see if it suits them.  Some will find it doesn't and move on.  Others may need to tailor it a bit before it fits.

I wish to make it clear that I am not accusing you, specifically, of the behavior I am about to discuss.  Rather I am observing a similarity so that you may take the occasion to clarify your philosophy.
Now, it is a common thing in fandoms to encounter individuals who claim superiority based on an arbitrarily established "deeper understanding" of whatever subject.  This is extra tricky in steampunk which has no central canon and an often debated definition (those Trekkers have it easy   ).  Essentially, steampunk and it's various mediums of expression are intensely personal and unless some actual harm is being done it it rarely a good idea to police other's enjoyments.

And as for this:

I am sorry some people have a problem with that but you don't have to reply.

In context of a discussion forum, I find that those with differing points of view make better conversationalists than simple supporters (not that I don't appreciate support when I get it). Polite challenges invite one to revisit their own positions and either strengthen them or expand them to encompass new data.

[Professor Oilcan]

Hi Kougi2011, I hope you don't find it offensive if I ask if you have posted here before under a different name?
Some of your comments and the manner of your writing remind me of a chap who joined a while back and then left.


To answer some of your points.
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with exploring the different areas of the greater world of Steampunk.
I think that Diesel and Steam are both separate entities and one and the same thing. It just depends on the manner in which they are presented at the time.
I see nothing wrong with separating or combining them as required.

I also don't think it cheapens or dilutes steampunk, instead it makes it better and helps it grow. It brings fresh water to the pond and more different beer to the party.

I don't think films such as sucker punch are influencing people – I'd say that such films came about because they were influenced by us.

I do think that there are a number of individuals on the periphery of steampunk who are making a bad attempt at costumes and props. Perhaps a little too much in the way of stuck on cogs, spray painted swimming goggles and modern clothing – but I don't let it bother me.
They'll either improve their look as they get more involved or they'll bugger off.
Either way I shall be polite and friendly to them so long as they are polite and friendly to me.

My advice, if you're willing to accept it. Is to stop fretting about what other people are doing with steampunk. Instead, do something you like with steampunk and share it with us.
Post some photos of your creations, or photos in full steamy dress.
Post a short story or some drawn pictures.
I find it's a lot more fun to get involved in the positive aspects of steampunk than to complain that others are doing it wrong.  

I too detect the familiar questions that someone posted on here not long ago and I too suspect it to be the same person, Steampunk can be whatever the individual wants it to be, Why limit peoples imaginations or likes, this community is a friendly and welcoming lot, lets keep it that way.

[Kougi2011]

I think that some of the suggestions are okay but see I don't have to agree with you but honestly I am a very creative person and do focus on the good aspects of the world however, I will not ignore the BS that people do and its effect on the genre.  Frankly I think diluting the genre and doing what people do to make it worse is not good. Yes i focused on one aspect of negativity but only because i love what i am apart of. To my eye steam punk is not this amorphous blob it started as one thing and is that thing but will grow but as i said not all growth is good so sure grow but please...

This BS about it is whatever it is man is crap. Steam punk started with Jeter and went from there but honestly should be more in my opinion careful as to what outside influences come into it.
Movies and games do take from us but if what they mirror back is not of good quality or representative of the beginning and essence of the genre then its totally reflects the slow degradation of that genre. Period.


I have introduced myself here you don't like again sorry. too bad bud.

[Captain Brandsson]

I want to do amazing things with this genre i love so much but I feel limited by Hollywood and video games and characterizations that are based on these Cons and misrepresentations of our hearts and our true love of something Amazing in the world that Authors like Jeter and powers and blaylock wrought in their novels and imaginations.

Question: How are Hollywood and video games stopping you, personally, from doing "amazing things with this genre".

I think one of us should ask Jeter what he thinks of cons diluting and misrepresenting his work.
He'll be at Steamcon III, so that would be a good opprotunity.  

[Kougi2011]

Oh and to your questions, No this is my very first time being officially in the forum.  I don't know who you are talking about but I am me and that's that.
I appreciate your differing views. Thank you for the discussion.

[Professor Oilcan]

I think that some of the suggestions are okay but see I don't have to agree with you but honestly I am a very creative person and do focus on the good aspects of the world however, I will not ignore the BS that people do and its effect on the genre.  Frankly I think diluting the genre and doing what people do to make it worse is not good. Yes i focused on one aspect of negativity but only because i love what i am apart of. To my eye steam punk is not this amorphous blob it started as one thing and is that thing but will grow but as i said not all growth is good so sure grow but please...

This BS about it is whatever it is man is crap. Steam punk started with Jeter and went from there but honestly should be more in my opinion careful as to what outside influences come into it.
Movies and games do take from us but if what they mirror back is not of good quality or representative of the beginning and essence of the genre then its totally reflects the slow degradation of that genre. Period.


I have introduced myself here you don't like again sorry. too bad bud.

You seem very negative, we are a helpful friendly bunch on here so just enjoy and interact with the community, we do not like many other forums call each other names nor swear at each other even in short text speak, just enter into proper discussion and we will all be happy to enter into your questions otherwise we shall just ignore the thread.

[Captain Brandsson]

Steam punk started with Jeter and went from there

Unless you count Moorcock in 1971 or the work of Michael Garrison in 1965 or the 19th century scientific romances of Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, Mark Twain, and Mary Shelley or the real world attempts of Edison and Tesla or...

[Just call me Rob]

I have introduced myself here you don't like again sorry. too bad bud.

And what an introduction it is!

It's certainly quite an interesting first post and thread, it's always good to start a discussion and get people chatting – we are nothing if not a chatty bunch.

I do think you're coming across as a bit passive aggressive, perhaps it's just because it can be quite daunting to join a new forum with so many established people already on it, so I'm sure people won't be offended by your abrasive manner. I'm sure it's not intentional.

I think it's great that you have such strong views on what steampunk is to you.
Perhaps you could share some of your steampunk ideas and show us what you do with steampunk that is better than those who do it badly?

I do agree that it's a shame when people join a community and add nothing of value to it. Something that we should all avoid doing.

[Kougi2011]

Question: How are Hollywood and video games stopping you, personally, from doing "amazing things with this genre".

Answer, Truth is it isn't for me personally but i Intend on producing art that will be public viewed and I am concerned that people who don't know steampunk will think its just this mishmash of things and really its not. In my opinion.  I am not saying my work will convey that but should they go to others work and others they know to ask about it, what will they think i am concerned about it because i don't want steampunk to die I don't want what i love to go away by diluting the genre. If my memory serves me right sci fi had that problem too at one point.  There is a definition of steampunk what it means to people and their idea of it in my opinion should start from there.  Art is subjective yes.  However the origin of it isn't.  When you get too far from what it was then it means nothing.  If you read the Wikipedia page about steampunk then you will see there is a definite beginning and idea about it and i happen to share that ideal.

Should people feel like they shouldn't add anything, of course not. I am not going to be uber liberal about this, I am honestly surprised about how many people are trying to force me to see their point. I understand the points but it doesn't change the past nor a massively awesome future steampunk has.  All that i ask is that people who just use it for fun or whatnot to please if its not for you then please don't be confused as to what is it or where its from when asked by others so that those of us who know and love it can still appreciate it in the future, other wise what is the future of the genre?

[Jonny B. Goode]

I'm a dieselpunk, and unrepentant of it. I'm on staff at dieselpunks.org. I prefer my blues and swing and my zoot suits and my world war military accents. I don't think it in any way "dilutes" steampunk. Dieselpunk is a separate genre that has it's own separate roots, and while a lot of steampunks have "discovered" dieselpunk in recent years, it is not technically a "splitting" of the genre and in no way weakens it. In fact, I'd argue that it strengthens it, and helps define it.

I also don't think that people making "cheap" steampunk costumes cheapens anything. There are a lot of people that "feel" steampunk, and want to be a part of it, but they lack the skills to make anything of their own. A lot of them buy things from thrift stores, modify them and wear them as steampunk. I don't think we should discriminate against those that have skills to make outrageous fashion, and those that do not.

Lastly, people here have been overly polite to you thus far in this thread, politely asking you to introduce yourself, etc. You have responded rudely and aggressively, in a manner wholly unbecoming a true steampunk. "If you don't like it, too bad bud"? Seriously? Being a steampunk doesn't mean being a steamthug or a steamjerk. Please behave with a little bit more politeness from now on. As the Victorian saying goes, "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Nobody's attacking you here, so have a cup of tea and relax.

[Capt. Dirigible]

I am honestly surprised about how many people are trying to force me to see their point.

Huh!?? Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

[Professor Oilcan]

I am honestly surprised about how many people are trying to force me to see their point.

Huh!?? Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Indeed we are not, what we would like is a bit of politeness.

[bicyclebuilder]

I am honestly surprised about how many people are trying to force me to see their point.

Huh!?? Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Indeed we are not, what we would like is a bit of politeness.

Hear, hear. "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." (You can catch even more flies with manure.  )

[Jonny B. Goode]

Well, you can draw them with manure, but catching them is another matter.