Okay What is the Deal with these goings ons.

[Captain Brandsson]

If I may also ask, Kougi, what (if any) other fandom/enthusiast/hobby communities do you identify with?
I ask so that I may not only understand you better but also craft metaphores that speak more directly to you.

[Mr. Boltneck]

I would argue that the MWNN is also the basis for The Road Warrior,

I can let you into as secret on that one.
His name is Max Rockastancy. (or something like that)

Oh, I know he has a name, from Mad Max, but Gibson goes through the movie in a very Mifune/Eastwood style, and I think his name only comes up once. I more or less think of him as conforming to the MWNN archetype, so to speak, which is a pretentious way for me to put it, but which lines up with George Miller's open admiration of the work of Joseph Campbell.
</threadrot>

[Miles (a sailor)Martin]

WOW have computer troubles for a couple days and look what happens....

starts of a tad over the top ,gets a discussion rolling ,oil is spead on the water to calm the waves, storm is backing down. compliments to all.
 
Hi Kougi2011 ,welcome aboard,you jumped right in the deep end, I was much more cautious when i came aboard, but everyone has their own style.
      but the common element,I have found here, is courtesy, the more polite a person is the calmer things stay.  A trick i use before i hit the send button is to read my own post aloud,and think about how it sounds.  Punctuation is the way to put an emotional overtone into the written word.
     no punctuation , no tone. or worse yet ,the opposite tone may be assumed by the reader from what you intended. 
    This was something that was explained to me ,some 35 years ago by the only English teacher I had that was worth a damn, She was also the Drama teacher.
                                                       Miles

[Jonny B. Goode]

I see Kougi2011 has changed his tone... what a difference a day makes.

Welcome, Kougi2011, enjoy your stay.

[von Corax]

Here I was, all set to address Kougi's concerns, and now I see he's already done it himself!

Fact is, about once a year someone shows up in a lather about how "Steampunk is being commercialized and corrupted, we're all going to be washed away by the Mainstream, we're all DOOOOOOOMED!!!" The conclusion always seems to be that Steampunk is far deeper and more substantial than that; the Con scene is really just a single, quite shallow aspect of what is shaping up to be a surprisingly broad and dynamic phenomenon (a fact which I believe Kougi is beginning to appreciate. Heck, I've been here three years and I'm still learning to appreciate it!) and when the Mainstream has flowed on, Steampunk will still be here. To be sure, it will be changed; the gadflies will have buzzed away to the next New Shiny, and a few of the Old Guard will have stormed off in disgust, but some of those who came in on the flood will have settled out, taken root and found a home for themselves.

Really, I think the best course of action is to just relax, don't worry and have a homebr— oh, wait, wrong forum. I think the best course of action is to relax and just be Steampunk, the way you want to do it, according to your own personal vision and no-one else's. Be serious about Steampunk, but don't take Steampunk seriously, and for Cog's sake don't take yourself seriously for that way madness lies.

Kougi2011, welcome to Brass Goggles. I think once you've knocked the mud from your boots you'll fit in here just fine.

[Just call me Rob]

There's been a few comments about the dilution of steampunk that I'd like to explore.

I don't think that steampunk can be diluted. It's not a finite resource.
Steampunk is an idea. When you share and idea then two people have the same idea, not half an idea each.
Even if the second person expands the idea it doesn't affect the original idea.

It is not the same amount of steampunk spread thinner over a larger area, it is instead more steampunk

There is no canonical steampunk to corrupt.
There is no one pure truth of steampunk that is being eroded.

Whenever a person buys or makes their first steampunk item, whenever a new person attends a con or buys a ticket for an event then steampunk grows.

Do not lament this thought that steampunk is being diluted, instead rejoice that it is growing.

[TimeTinker]

Well said Rob.

At the risk of getting religious I am reminded of the parable of the sewing of the seeds.  Perhaps a steampunk version:

"The media and mainstream culture, as is its character, siezed upon steampunk as new and exciting and bold.  It claimed steampunk as its own and broadcast* it to the multitude.

These ideas were as seeds.   Some fell on fallow minds and were lost.  Some fell on poor ground where they attempted to grow but were weak and failed.  Some fell on excellent ground where they grew tall and healthy and strong.

Where they grew strong in time they produced their own ideas as seeds and these were cast out into the world for all to see and enjoy.

Of course the true test was in the hands of the existing steampunks for they are the farmers.  They could pinch out the life of the seeds on poor ground and concentrate only on the strong seeds.  Steampunk is however a movement that welcomes people to its heart so the good steampunks became farmers, taking time to water and feed the seeds on poor ground with new ideas and encouragement and praise so that they too could grow strong and add their idea seeds to Steampunk.

The word in the beginning was Steampunk but it has grown to something wonderful."

*Do you like what I did with broadcast? Broadcast seeds and broadcast as in TV?" Tee hee.

[Captain Brandsson]

Very well done, Rob.  I've occasionally said of various notions (and I'll apply it here) that such things are not like pies...  enjoying your slice does not mean there is less for others.

On a side note I want to take a moment to thank Brass Goggles in general, and folks in this thread in specific.  I recently engaged in a somewhat similar discussion elsewhere that quickly developed a tone of "more steampunk than thou".  It made me appreciate afresh BG's prevalent "your steampunk is your steampunk and my steampunk is my steampunk, now let us all proceed" attitude.

[Nex]

So after a year...maybe two, of being inactive, I come to check back in on BG and this is the first thread to catch my eye.
 

Great to see that the place is still keeping to its discuss almost anything you want as long as you keep it polite ways.

I always loved the "what is steampunk?" threads, mostly because there is only really one "-punk" for me and that's Cyberpunk.
So why would I come to a steampunk board?

Well I have, since I was a kid, had a lot of interests which are now labeled as "steampunk" or "dieselpunk" or any number of the other "-punks" that have cropped up over recent years.

As the interest for me predates those names I honestly don't hold much, if any, attachment to them compared to things like Victorian Sci-Fi, Pulp or Fantasy. Sure sometimes I've let the whole "-punk" trend get to me, feeling like the cool kids are trying to fracture my interests, but when I really sit down and think about it I don't care what other people call it or how they label something I like because my amalgamation of genres is still just a mix of whatever catches my interest.

Sure it makes it a lot harder to explain than being able to say "I like Steampunk" and give a Wikipedia definition, but I don't think I'd want it any other way.

[ValancyJane]

Here I was, all set to address Kougi's concerns, and now I see he's already done it himself!

Likewise, you summed up what I was going to say with one exception:

The conclusion always seems to be that Steampunk is far deeper and more substantial than that; the Con scene is really just a single, quite shallow aspect of what is shaping up to be a surprisingly broad and dynamic phenomenon

I don't think the con scene is shallow (and this I find is true for all con/events whether they be steampunk, comic book, anime, sci fi, gaming, ren faire, etc).   Rather, cons are where one can see all the layers of particular fandom/subculture.  It usually breaks down like this:

Mundanes/Man off the street--there because they are curious or want to be entertained or dragged along by one of the below.  No real depth of knowledge about the culture.  Usually dressed in street clothes but if costumed will be the most minimal attempt (ie my husband calls this the guys wearing cargo shorts, a wife beater, and his dad's welding goggles).  If they enjoy themselves enough they move on to the next stage.
First timer--Testing the waters to see if this is their thing.  New and want to learn more, but don't want to stand out either.  Dressed in cheap,but put together carefullly costume. If they feel at home will begin to invest while there.
The Weekend Enthusist--This is their hobby and they devote some of their free time to it.  They are knowledgable and have a well put together outfit or two.  This event is a chance for them to get away from their "mundane" life and have fun.
The Hardcore--this is their life.  The live and breathe this fandom/subculture.  They have a closet full of costumes and wear them as much as they can, con or no.  They know everything and are the one to go to if you have a question.  If they can, they make a living at this either performing, vending or crafting. 

Each serves a purpose in the little social experiment that is a con.  The mundanes and first timers bring fresh blood, fresh ideas, and fresh income.  The Weekend Enthusist and Hardcore support the con enconomy and provids a stable base for the con society.  Oh, and of course there is some overlap between them.

[The Squire]

Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't we have a Great Steampunk Debate? Then, we would all know what TRUE steampunk is?

[Dr Fidelius]

Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't we have a Great Steampunk Debate? Then, we would all know what TRUE steampunk is?

Go sit in the corner and think about what you just said.  I am not angry about it, just very disappointed in you.

[Christophe Cocoricau]

Easy fellow Steampunks, the DOOMSDAY has been rescheduled for the next week to come as I have found a flaw in Doctor Krinklestein's Master Plan... will keep you posted, all is safe for now, Steampunk is not dead

[The Squire]

Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't we have a Great Steampunk Debate? Then, we would all know what TRUE steampunk is?

Go sit in the corner and think about what you just said.  I am not angry about it, just very disappointed in you.

*eyes downcast* shuffles to corner and sobs:

"Doctor, please spank me or hit me or something . . . but your disappointment I cannot bear!"

[Truly, I spoke in haste . . . and jest. Please no more Great Debates.]

[Christophe Cocoricau]

I would argue that the MWNN is also the basis for The Road Warrior,

I can let you into as secret on that one.
His name is Max Rockastancy. (or something like that)

Oh, I know he has a name, from Mad Max, but Gibson goes through the movie in a very Mifune/Eastwood style, and I think his name only comes up once. I more or less think of him as conforming to the MWNN archetype, so to speak, which is a pretentious way for me to put it, but which lines up with George Miller's open admiration of the work of Joseph Campbell.
</threadrot>

It's actually Max Rockatansky, of polish heritage as the last name sounds.

[von Corax]

Here I was, all set to address Kougi's concerns, and now I see he's already done it himself!

Likewise, you summed up what I was going to say with one exception:

The conclusion always seems to be that Steampunk is far deeper and more substantial than that; the Con scene is really just a single, quite shallow aspect of what is shaping up to be a surprisingly broad and dynamic phenomenon

I don't think the con scene is shallow (and this I find is true for all con/events whether they be steampunk, comic book, anime, sci fi, gaming, ren faire, etc).   Rather, cons are where one can see all the layers of particular fandom/subculture.  It usually breaks down like this:

[Ms. Jane's excellent points pruned in the interest of brevity, but can be read in her original post]

Ms. Jane, I stand corrected, and I apologize for seeming to give the Con scene (with which I confess I have no direct experience) short shrift. What I meant (or at least what I think I meant) was to refer specifically to the "Con scene" aspect of Steampunk, in comparison to Steampunk-as-a-whole, although to be honest it was 4 in the morning so I can't now be entirely certain what I meant.

[youbedead]

I do believe all this can be summed up in the words of the great prophet

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savge

[ValancyJane]

Here I was, all set to address Kougi's concerns, and now I see he's already done it himself!

Likewise, you summed up what I was going to say with one exception:

The conclusion always seems to be that Steampunk is far deeper and more substantial than that; the Con scene is really just a single, quite shallow aspect of what is shaping up to be a surprisingly broad and dynamic phenomenon

I don't think the con scene is shallow (and this I find is true for all con/events whether they be steampunk, comic book, anime, sci fi, gaming, ren faire, etc).   Rather, cons are where one can see all the layers of particular fandom/subculture.  It usually breaks down like this:

[Ms. Jane's excellent points pruned in the interest of brevity, but can be read in her original post]

Ms. Jane, I stand corrected, and I apologize for seeming to give the Con scene (with which I confess I have no direct experience) short shrift. What I meant (or at least what I think I meant) was to refer specifically to the "Con scene" aspect of Steampunk, in comparison to Steampunk-as-a-whole, although to be honest it was 4 in the morning so I can't now be entirely certain what I meant.

It's quite all right.  Cons do contain a shallow element, as I myself pointed out.  If one went by the pictures online (most of which are simply people dressed up), they can seem very shallow.  I think your point is valid, as one is more likely to see those shallower aspects at con than say on a forum like this.

[Birdnest]

After reading through all 4 pages of all of this, I have come to appreciate this community even more than before. This 'genre' looks to me as if it has grown into more of a movement.  And ... this place shows all of the bits hidden in the corners as well as the bits that are right out there for all to see.

Therefore, Welcome Sir to the tangled fray.  As you may have noticed, those here have an established way of "Don't tell me what my reality is".

There are varied groups here including lifestylists, cosplayers, artists, folk who dress in a Victorian manner and combinations of all the previously mentioned.  I will avoid the distraction of your writing styles and strive to understand your points and/or rants as they possibly were.  Seemingly trite additions to costumes or boxes are just too subjective for the likes of me ... I may have been more reactive when younger but now I try to set back and enjoy the pageantry.  After 35 years in design, I have truly learned that everyone is right and everyone is wrong.  Like grandma said, opinions are worth what you pay for 'em.

To that end, I understand some of your points even though they do not align with what I do or care about.  This group seems as though there should be proper introductions, hand shaking, etc. before throwing out a rant (justified as it may be). 

Please excuse my interference, but these are my thoughts that come along with an extended hand of greeting and acceptance.

[Captain Shipton Bellinger]

I wasn't sure whether to post this, but here goes...

Over on the Futurismic blog, Paul Raven has a piece about the effects of the 'Maker Movement' going mainstream. Seems to me that a lot of what he has to say could easily apply to Steampunk. For example...

...PR, acquisitions, publicly-held companies, V[enture] C[apital] money, big politics… these things are what maker culture considers itself the antithesis to, that it was a rejection of or rebellion against. These things moving in will not result in the “mainstreaming of maker culture”; they will result in the maker-ing of mainstream culture, the tricky bits of the philosophy and lifestyle stripped away until whatever’s left can be marketed using the established channels. No more bespoke gizmos made by nimble-handed fiddlers with the time and motivation to scrounge around for parts; instead, off-the-shelf Arduino “solutions” with instruction sheets – no soldering iron required!

Now, would that be a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Ah, now that's the question, isn't it?

 

[D.Oakes]

I wasn't sure whether to post this, but here goes...

Over on the Futurismic blog, Paul Raven has a piece about the effects of the 'Maker Movement' going mainstream. Seems to me that a lot of what he has to say could easily apply to Steampunk. For example...

...PR, acquisitions, publicly-held companies, V[enture] C[apital] money, big politics… these things are what maker culture considers itself the antithesis to, that it was a rejection of or rebellion against. These things moving in will not result in the “mainstreaming of maker culture”; they will result in the maker-ing of mainstream culture, the tricky bits of the philosophy and lifestyle stripped away until whatever’s left can be marketed using the established channels. No more bespoke gizmos made by nimble-handed fiddlers with the time and motivation to scrounge around for parts; instead, off-the-shelf Arduino “solutions” with instruction sheets – no soldering iron required!

Now, would that be a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Ah, now that's the question, isn't it?

 

I tend to be a pessemistic about these sorts of things.  I mean already gears and art nouveau motif on very modern items are beginning to pop up in stores where I used to go searching the sales racks for waistcoats to mod.  (ironically none of the local stores seem to carry them anymore even in the suit section)  It would be nice if the quality came with the external appearence.  If somehow we reminded companies that things used to have nice aesthetics and were built to last.  One weekend we needed firewood at a reenactment and we did not have an axe, in fact we did not have an axe because the mass produced piece of modern crap broke within 3 minutes...and it was brand new.  Freezing not an option, I took my World War I issue Russian shovel made in 1916 with a handle that was original...not only did it cut better than the axe, but it to this day is still in one piece.  My pessemism sees an extreme continuation of copying steampunk motifs into things that have nothing at all to do with anything steampunk is or the Victorian was.   If we keep the "mystery" aspect of what we do, people will want to know.  (basic reverse psychology, everyone wants to know secrets)  If suddenly it becomes easily bought at Target in a watered down form, it will become popular for about 2 years, if that, and then fade away.  Things these days are made to be as finite as possible, that way they can sell more things down the road.  

I guess what I should clarify is, give everyone little tastes of steampunk and it will make them curious and start asking which in itself spreads the word.  If you just give people steampunk they, like small children, will play with it for a few weeks and you will never see it again. 

[Captain Brandsson]

I guess what I should clarify is, give everyone little tastes of steampunk and it will make them curious and start asking which in itself spreads the word.  If you just give people steampunk they, like small children, will play with it for a few weeks and you will never see it again.

But really, either way, that effects The Great Many of Us* how, exactly?

Based on the stories you hear in conversation and read on fora such as this, "steampunk" was not something any of use joined when it existed in some specific way or other that is in danger of being overrun, seized, changed or destroyed.  The Great Many of Us were all out there, alone or in small groups, doing all our own various things when the term "steampunk" was applied externally (and rather arbitrarily, when you think about it) to all of us despite the vast diversity of hobbies and enthusiasms. In an nutshell: We did not become steampunks, steampunks became us.
We were here before and we will be here after.

Trust me, if Tolkien fans can survive the transformation of our well-loved but dauntingly massive tome on mythology, linguistics and the hero's journey becoming big screen blockbusters and sources for teen magazine heartthrobs then we, as steampunks, can some survive some shoddy merchandise that we aren't obligated to buy.

The only thing at stake is an immature sense of "I'm better than you because I'm a proper steampunk and you're not", which is something we should shed, anyhow.

* A phrase I am trying out in reference to our numbers, our incredible greatness and our massive diversity

[D.Oakes]

I guess what I should clarify is, give everyone little tastes of steampunk and it will make them curious and start asking which in itself spreads the word.  If you just give people steampunk they, like small children, will play with it for a few weeks and you will never see it again.

But really, either way, that effects The Great Many of Us* how, exactly?

Based on the stories you hear in conversation and read on fora such as this, "steampunk" was not something any of use joined when it existed in some specific way or other that is in danger of being overrun, seized, changed or destroyed.  The Great Many of Us were all out there, alone or in small groups, doing all our own various things when the term "steampunk" was applied externally (and rather arbitrarily, when you think about it) to all of us despite the vast diversity of hobbies and enthusiasms. In an nutshell: We did not become steampunks, steampunks became us.
We were here before and we will be here after.

Trust me, if Tolkien fans can survive the transformation of our well-loved but dauntingly massive tome on mythology, linguistics and the hero's journey becoming big screen blockbusters and sources for teen magazine heartthrobs then we, as steampunks, can some survive some shoddy merchandise that we aren't obligated to buy.

The only thing at stake is an immature sense of "I'm better than you because I'm a proper steampunk and you're not", which is something we should shed, anyhow.

* A phrase I am trying out in reference to our numbers, our incredible greatness and our massive diversity

I try to avoid drama wherever possible, I'm not saying there is not drama here now.  I feel for 90% of the rants and debates and counter arguments, there is a maturity, perhaps a little immaturity at times, but within a few posts we move on.  Many times I've abandoned interests just because the drama got too childish and took the fun out of it.  You can only ignore it for so long before your sanity is more important than your passion.  At that point I'd consider wearing tights and dressing Renaissance after that.   

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Men in Tights Song

[Captain Shipton Bellinger]

Trust me, if Tolkien fans can survive the transformation of our well-loved but dauntingly massive tome on mythology, linguistics and the hero's journey becoming big screen blockbusters and sources for teen magazine heartthrobs then we, as steampunks, can some survive some shoddy merchandise that we aren't obligated to buy.

That, for me at least, is an excellent analogy. I first read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings back in the 1960s (Ye Gods! that makes me sound ancient!), followed by everything that JRRT himself published—and I mean everything—, critical works, commentaries, and Christopher Tolkien's monumental work. I still read and reread much of it.

I just about managed to watch Jackson's Fellowship, more-or-less stayed with his Two Towers until Helm's Deep and left in disgust. I couldn't bring myself to watch Return of the King. IMNSHO Jackson pissed on JRRT's tale. There are now millions who think they know Tolkien's epic, when in fact they know a pale shadow.

I hate what Jackson did with Middle Earth, but it hasn't changed my appreciation and, of course, Tolkien's works remain unchanged. Perhaps some few cinema-goers will also make the effort to read and appreciate the original books.

I suspect that something similar will happen when/if Steampunk really does go mainstream—I (and probably many others) won't like it, but it won't really affect us that much. And we'll still be there when all the fooforaw dies down.

[Wilhelmina Frame]

Hey look at my awesome earrings!



You know when I bought them?  1986!
You know where I bought them?  The shopping mall in suburbia USA!
Was I steampunk in 1986?  F*CK YEAH! See look at my rad steampunk outfit that I wore with my rad earrings!



It's so terrible when the kids from the mall ruin steampunk!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No way! I wouldn't have been caught dead in brown in '86.