Okay What is the Deal with these goings ons.

[Just call me Rob]

I think the idea of understanding each others points, but not agreeing with them is a mutual thing.
We are no more able force you to see our points than you can force us to see and accept yours.

Not that I think you should accept my points at all, or vice versa. We're just sharing ideas and philosophies and there's no reason why anyone should act on or accept another persons ideas.
There are many people on this forum who have different points of view of what steampunk means to them, but we all coexist quite happily and enjoy seeing each others work and discussing the concepts behind them.

I'd be very interested to see the steampunk art you have created, is there any chance you could post it on the forum somewhere?

Also, may I ask if you are a member of another steampunk community somewhere which has inspired your viewpoints?
I think that the wiki article isn't the best source of steampunk explanation – it's lacking in some areas and not been updated for quite a long time, and if it's your primary source then I can see why you have developed the views you have.

[James Harrison]

i Intend on producing art that will be public viewed and I am concerned that people who don't know steampunk will think its just this mishmash of things and really its not. In my opinion.  I am not saying my work will convey that but should they go to others work and others they know to ask about it, what will they think i am concerned about

Interesting you should say that; I went to the Oxford exhibition back in 2009 (I believe it's now travelling, but am ready to be put right on that point if anyone else knows better).  Thing is, there were quite a few exhibitors there and at no point did it appear a mishmash of discordant styles and tastes combining to form an incoherent or diluted whole.  Now you may say (with some justification) that as I am a steampunk of course I am going to say that; in one sense I would 'know what I was looking at'.  

But the thing is, that exhibition was the best-attended one that the Museum of the History of Science have yet hosted.  And, moreover, when I subsequently moved to Oxford last year I happened to meet a couple of people at my uni who had no prior experience of Steampunk but had visited the exhibition and from it managed to form a pretty accurate idea of what it is all about, simply from looking at and trying to understand the exhibits.  From that experience I would say then that there is no real risk that people will see the work of other steampunks and try to ascribe to your work something that isn't there.    

Rather my experience is that we all walk towards the same ideas; just along different paths.  

[TimeTinker]

A few points:

Jeter did not invent steampunk - he just came up with a jokey name that stuck.

Get two steampunks in a room and you will have two definitions on what it is.  There is no right and wrong.   Suck it up eh?

Rants are fine but rants on a board by someone who is unknown is usually trolling and passive aggressive responses reinforce this impression.  Don't want to be seen as a troll? Think about how you are coming across.

Why not let your art speak for you, inspire others and encourage thought instead of just throwing out hostility to get a response?

Art exhibtion information

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Oxford art exhibition was returned to the contributing artists last year.  There is a sequel exhibtion which is currently at Kew Bridge Steam Museum in London until August 29th before touring on.

[Abraham Cog]

Kougi2011, you accuse people of despoiling the Steampunk Genre but simultaneously you ignore two of the most important tenets of recognised and accepted Steampunk behaviour, these being courtesy and polite argument.

You may well have some good points on your side but, regretfully, you do seem to have a problem with your delivery (perhaps this is the exuberance of youth) but since we have not been introduced who can know?

It would, however, be interesting to hear your ideas of the basic  requirements for a Steampunk to be accepted.

[Captain Shipton Bellinger]

Get two steampunks in a room and you will have two definitions on what it is.

I find that somewhat limiting and reserve the right to have at least two mutually exclusive opinions on the definition of Steampunk.

[Just call me Rob]

Get two steampunks in a room and you will have two definitions on what it is.

I find that somewhat limiting and reserve the right to have at least two mutually exclusive opinions on the definition of Steampunk.

That may be true, but it's quite likely that by the end of the discussion both steampunks are so open minded they have accepted each other suggestions and are now arguing for the other persons original points.
It gets quite confusing at times,

[Dr Fidelius]

I've been doing this since I first saw Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang at age six, back in the 1960s.  You are all band-wagon jumpers, and I demand you al stop diluting my Steampunk with your ideas.  Except the good ideas (the ones i personally like).  And some of the bad ideas are interesting.  And the other retro-futurists act like they aren't diluting my playspace, so they have to go, too.  And the re-enactors.  I'm an American, and so I can say that the Philadelphia Centennial Celebration is the one and only legitimate inspiration for Steampunks and their artwork.  Adding or removing anything would cause people to think I'm just being a follower of fashion.  And if you don't like that, then tough cookies.

(I love finding someone with the enthusiasm of a new convert, but I find they don't stay with any one interest for every long.  Folks who get that passionate over the "right and proper way" to do something tend to get disappointed that others do not follow their lead, and wander off to evangelize another group.  [On occasion they do instigate a general uprising, but it is sometimes difficult to tell whether you are leading a charge or running from a mob.])

[bicyclebuilder]

I lol'd. That was just what the doctor ordered. 

[TimeTinker]

[On occasion they do instigate a general uprising, but it is sometimes difficult to tell whether you are leading a charge or running from a mob.])

Very apt Sir, very apt indeed.   

[citizen_erased]

Kougi2011, at the time of starting this thread, were you angry, upset, frustrated or otherwise negatively influenced?
The reason I ask is, as 90% (or was it 95%, either one) of communication is done non-verbally, and the internet is purely verbal, a lot gets lost in interpretation. Because of a negative mood, you may consider posts offensive while others did not mean it that way. You may have also phrased things in a way you wouldn`t usually, causing others to see you as agressive or offensive or rude while you did not mean it to.

Ofcourse, this counts for every one who frequents the internet. Everyone all over the internet should think carefully about how they put things on the internet, as misunderstandings occur more easily and more often than you think. I personally also often have to stop and think for a moment, and often end up deleting entire posts because I realise they might be offensive/misinterpreted. I think this might also be the case here - we all might just be misunderstanding each other, but it would help if you would not say things like "I have introduced myself here you don't like again sorry. too bad bud. ". Politeness does get you a lot further than pushing your own way through.

To go back on topic a bit more: as one of those people who simply does not have the money for victorian clothes, nor the skills to make them myself, I am limited to getting as creative as it gets with modern clothing until I find more chances at "upgrading", so to speak. I personally don`t think there`s anything wrong with this - I enjoy going through, say, H&M, and picking out clothes I can use for steampunk styles because to me it`s a type of punk. "I`m totally using your clothes for something you never imagined it could be used for, mwahaha". Besides that, I dare say that building machinery etc from scratch might be kind of dangerous when wearing a full victorian dress. Sparks combined with lots of fabric does not sound like a brilliant idea - but then, I don`t have much experience with either.

But does it really matter whether or not other people only like steampunk for the style, for dressing up, or as a fashion craze? It happens, but you know what? Those people will eventually leave again as well, or they will find out what else steampunk has to offer and get deeper into it. Either way is fine. The most important part is that you like steampunk, and that you enjoy being steampunk. As long as you like it, does anything else really matter? Does it really matter what other people do and think? To me, it doesn`t. I have my own style, and if people say it`s "wrong",　too bad for them, not my problem =).

[Flynn MacCallister]

Get two steampunks in a room and you will have two definitions on what it is.

Three definitions, at least. And they'll be completely different if you ask again if five minutes. ;p

Waffles, anyone?

[Flynn MacCallister]

Kougi, mate, part of being a part of steampunk is acknowledging its diversity and accepting even the parts you don't like. As TimeTinker said, no two steampunks have the same idea of what steampunk is, and that's part of what makes it so exciting for so many of us.

As for bandwagoners, even if you are unwilling to accept that they can make any contribution to the community in terms of ideas, surely you must accept they are useful for something: they are what you may call "bums on seats". That is, their fleeting fascination with steampunk injects cash. Without bandwagoners, or with a more elite definition of steampunk, we wouldn't be able to afford the events we have. We'd have too many makers and not enough buyers (that's not to say long-haulers have to be makers, just that bandwagoners tend to be buyers.) Like 'em or not, they actually fulfil an important role in the steampunk ecosystem.

If you have a certain idea of what steampunk is, lead from the front. Get your steampunk out there. If people like it, it'll spread. Shouting at people from behind the lines isn't going to do anything; we've heard so many times before what is and isn't steampunk that most of us have stopped listening.

[Just call me Rob]

If you read the Wikipedia page about steampunk then you will see there is a definite beginning and idea about it and i happen to share that ideal.

As suggested I have just read the wiki article again.
It's quite out of date and convoluted.
I then read the discussion page which was quite horrible.

Lots of angry egos clashing over their self interests, personal agendas, power trips.
Seeing that someone had deleted something because it 'had no reference to steam or punk' was both tragic and funny at the same time.

[Flynn MacCallister]

If you read the Wikipedia page about steampunk then you will see there is a definite beginning and idea about it and i happen to share that ideal.

As suggested I have just read the wiki article again.
It's quite out of date and convoluted.
I then read the discussion page which was quite horrible.

Lots of angry egos clashing over their self interests, personal agendas, power trips.
Seeing that someone had deleted something because it 'had no reference to steam or punk' was both tragic and funny at the same time.

It was actually quite good for a while there; nice and inclusive. It's a shame that it's been messed up again.

[barb dwyer]

Speaking as someone who's supplemented
their income for 35 years as an illustrator and artist...
and only from my own personal experience:
a word of caution to our new friend -

"Bandwagonners" are usually the ones
who come into a genre
with the most money to buy one's artwork.

At times as an artist
it is the wise choice
to preserve the sanctity
of the art form's theatre of acceptance
in silence ~

at least until the bills are paid.

[Siliconous Skumins]

I glad I'm not the only one who had the impression that we've seen the OP before on the forum....

I do wonder if this type of posting is related to our previous problem and associated comments (and eventual ignoring of said posts) with students joining the forum and leaving a single post to on-line polls / questionnaire forms, in order to complete their coursework. Could this be the new tactic of gaining the required information?  It does seem that there have been more "poke with a stick to get a reaction" type of comments, or at least some sort of obvious annoyance that they have to post opinions / questions in this manner.

There also seems to be a lot more "opinions" than actual questions in these type of threads. I say this because even when a viewpoint or question is answered with an appropriate responce, the poster seems to disregard the comment and continue with an attitude that they themselves are correct and that our responces are incorrect or irrelevant regardless. There seems to be little to no attempt to take on-board the alternative views / points members of this forum have posted, or to engage in discussion about the comments we give.

There does seem to be a recent trend for "Your all doing it wrong!!" type posts by new members to the forum. 


My comments not directed at the OP of this thread directly, and I mean no disrespect, just commenting as to the nature of these threads.

SS

[Kougi2011]

No matter what i have said, It is my opinion and i am sure i am not alone.  I am speaking my mind on this subject and while i appreciate the other side to this I will not be a person that takes everyone just because i should. I know that there are people who confab things together and that's cool.  I am not going to be soft on this issue.  I have already seen how my words have been taken out of context or copied and used to make a very weak point.   As i said from the start this is just my opinion which everyone who has answered me has been very bias and focusing on only my opinion and not the matter of the genre and it's dilution. Yes diesel punk is not Steam punk unless it follows steam punk  if it has elements of it in it then that's good but if you claim it to completely be a new thing then let it be the new thing it is and can be and leave steam punk alone. Am i saying that people who enjoy both can't? No i am not and it wouldn't be what i said. If your going to split it then in my opinion split it and be done. Don't drag it on and dilute it and make it something worse. I am polite but i am not going to be a walk over carpet for everything. I am stating my opinion and sticking to it.  I will put it to you like this.  I love Doctor Who William Hartnell and Tom Baker but i have no problem with Matt Smith.   The same goes for my love of steam punk. 

[Dr Fidelius]

No matter what i have said, It is my opinion and i am sure i am not alone.  I am speaking my mind on this subject and while i appreciate the other side to this I will not be a person that takes everyone just because i should. I know that there are people who confab things together and that's cool.  I am not going to be soft on this issue.  I have already seen how my words have been taken out of context or copied and used to make a very weak point.   As i said from the start this is just my opinion which everyone who has answered me has been very bias and focusing on only my opinion and not the matter of the genre and it's dilution. Yes diesel punk is not Steam punk unless it follows steam punk  if it has elements of it in it then that's good but if you claim it to completely be a new thing then let it be the new thing it is and can be and leave steam punk alone. Am i saying that people who enjoy both can't? No i am not and it wouldn't be what i said. If your going to split it then in my opinion split it and be done. Don't drag it on and dilute it and make it something worse. I am polite but i am not going to be a walk over carpet for everything. I am stating my opinion and sticking to it.  I will put it to you like this.  I love Doctor Who William Hartnell and Tom Baker but i have no problem with Matt Smith.   The same goes for my love of steam punk. 

Paragraphs are your friends.  The roots of Steampunk are strongly literary and we appreciate a well-written essay.  Although an essay normally shows a unified theme and logical progression of thought, so the comparison is probably not relevant to your post.

[Kougi2011]

I think the idea of understanding each others points, but not agreeing with them is a mutual thing.
We are no more able force you to see our points than you can force us to see and accept yours.

Not that I think you should accept my points at all, or vice versa. We're just sharing ideas and philosophies and there's no reason why anyone should act on or accept another persons ideas.
There are many people on this forum who have different points of view of what steampunk means to them, but we all coexist quite happily and enjoy seeing each others work and discussing the concepts behind them.

I'd be very interested to see the steampunk art you have created, is there any chance you could post it on the forum somewhere?

Also, may I ask if you are a member of another steampunk community somewhere which has inspired your viewpoints?
I think that the wiki article isn't the best source of steampunk explanation – it's lacking in some areas and not been updated for quite a long time, and if it's your primary source then I can see why you have developed the views you have.

I will answer your last couple of sentences first.  
 

if it's your primary source then I can see why you have developed the views you have.

While i know that is a statement I believe there is a question in there.  No it is not my only source, I have stated that I have read Jeter,powers,blaylock as well as having seen several movies and been to cons.  I have a definite idea of it from there and have taken it to the best i can or tried to be very clear.

Also, may I ask if you are a member of another steampunk community somewhere which has inspired your viewpoints?

A: No i am not because i believe that this site is really one of the best community sites i have seen and it is very nice to be apart of it.

I'd be very interested to see the steampunk art you have created, is there any chance you could post it on the forum somewhere?

A: I haven't been able to really make the things i want to show and to add to the era and coolness that steam punk is. When I am ready then i will show everyone that and the website it goes on.   I would like to ask a question of my own.  Is your request to see what i am doing or have done to make a cynical remark about it and to try to prove what i did isn't steam punk? I only ask out of curiosity and nothing else.

I agree that Opinions are necessary to keep a genre and art alive and that with out them no matter who dislikes what i say or even likes it, that genre is dead.

[Abraham Cog]

Is your request to see what i am doing or have done to make a cynical remark about it and to try to prove what i did isn't steam punk? I only ask out of curiosity and nothing else.

Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean people aren't watching me!

[Narsil]

I think there is a real danger in getting too bound up with the identity of a genre at the expense of it's actual content. A single, well defined and neatly packaged concept is fine for corporate branding but I'm not sure that it's particularly desirable for a creative/social movement.

Inevitably there will be a certain amount of dross and you certainly have to be prepared to recognise it as such and differentiate between what is real quality and what is not, but that doesn't mean that the stuff that misses that mark is actually harmful. It's only really a problem if you over-invest your personal identity in the projected or popular image of a particular group.

Like everyone else you are free to pick and choose what aspects you engage with and respond to creatively, if people are doing things which leave you cold then the onus is on you to explore the things which you are interested in. I certainly don't think that there is any lack of very high quality work about and any amount of lesser quality stuff can't alter that.

As soon as anything is done well there will always be people who want to have a go themselves either simply because it inspires them or because they see an opportunity to make some money. Inevitably some of this will be derivative and shallow but that doesn't diminish the work of newcomers who expend teh time and effort to explore further and push the envelope.

[Herr Döktor]

Opinion, opinion, opinion: In my opinion, my version of steampunk isn't being diluted, in your opinion, your version of steampunk is.

Funnily enough, in both our opinions, both these things are true.

You can't take my opinion away anymore than I can take yours away.

Ignoring it, on the other hand...

(PS: Has it really been a month since the last time a thread like this happened?)

[Kougi2011]

Does everyone have to agree with me?

NO.

Do i have to agree with everyone here?

No.

Am I trying to be rude and mean?

No.

Am I just trying to relay a frustration i see as a community member of the steam punk world?

Yes.

Was i trying to offend everyone?

No.

Here it is I asked a question of the community about if anyone else has issues like that.
People did though mostly with my view on it and not their own.
I appreciate the explanation of all the different aspects of this genre that I didn't know about.  

I am taking in all the points and ideas I have heard. I wanted to do that from the start.
If i make a comment that offends people then most of the time I do not mean it. However, I am a person and I will make offensive comments.
Not on purpose, I just state my opinion of how i see things.  You can agree or disagree with them. That is fine and I will listen.  A reasonable person
makes his opinion known and then listens and makes up his own mind on the subject usually not the person.  Freedom of speech is not just people who agree.

I may have ruffled some feathers with my opinions and thoughts but that is all they are.  
I am not going to be sorry for posting a idea people may not like or agree with and some will.
I thought i had laid out my thoughts and my question generally and pretty well.
Misunderstandings do and can happen.  I am a person who speaks clearly and with my opinion.
However as someone who likes discussions and an occasional argument,
I too listen and decide based on the new information i receive as part of the discussion.

For now I thank Everyone for their view points.  It would be nice to get to know more people here.  

[Just call me Rob]

Is your request to see what i am doing or have done to make a cynical remark about it and to try to prove what i did isn't steam punk? I only ask out of curiosity and nothing else.

Of course not.
It was to try and understand you a little more.

All you have really done so far is say what you don't like about steampunk.
By seeing your art I thought we might be able to get a handle on the areas of steampunk you do like.
I'd much rather congratulate someone on their work then listen to them complain about other peoples work.

On a personal note.
Rather than apologising in advance for being offensive on this forum, it is perhaps better to try not to be offensive in the first place.
We're a friendly bunch, but we don't respond well to rudeness.

[Professor Oilcan]

Lets take your answers in turn

Does everyone have to agree with me?

NO.

Correct

Do i have to agree with everyone here?

No.

This is also correct

Am I trying to be rude and mean?

No.

You have however been rude, it is far better to be polite than go down the line you have.

Am I just trying to relay a frustration i see as a community member of the steam punk world?

Yes.

This is ok, however the manner in which you have posted means your trying to vent that frustration out on members of our community that my agree with you. It is far better to have a reasonable discussion then to be rude.

Was i trying to offend everyone?

No.

However you have offended people myself included.

Here it is I asked a question of the community about if anyone else has issues like that.

People did though mostly with my view on it and not their own.

You asked a question in totally the wrong fashion and having asked the question was aggressive and rude in the manner of response to that persons views.

I appreciate the explanation of all the different aspects of this genre that I didn't know about.

Your answers to this differ to that.   


I am taking in all the points and ideas I have heard. I wanted to do that from the start.
If i make a comment that offends people then most of the time I do not mean it. However, I am a person and I will make offensive comments.
Not on purpose, I just state my opinion of how i see things.  You can agree or disagree with them. That is fine and I will listen.  A reasonable person
makes his opinion known and then listens and makes up his own mind on the subject usually not the person.  Freedom of speech is not just people who agree.

Correct freedom of speech is not just for people who agree however there is freedom of speech and downright rudeness.

I may have ruffled some feathers with my opinions and thoughts but that is all they are. 
I am not going to be sorry for posting a idea people may not like or agree with and some will.
I thought i had laid out my thoughts and my question generally and pretty well.
Misunderstandings do and can happen.  I am a person who speaks clearly and with my opinion.
However as someone who likes discussions and an occasional argument,
I too listen and decide based on the new information i receive as part of the discussion.

For now I thank Everyone for their view points.  It would be nice to get to know more people here. 

If you do actually wish to get to know us, we are actually nice people then an ounce of politeness goes along way, I would be only to happy to discuss this subject with you but in a manner that is polite and informative.