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Duellist
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« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2011, 10:57:00 am » |
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I don't mean to step on any toes, but since we appear to be ready to make a go of this, I just thought I'd make a couple of suggestions to keep us from losing our momentum.
I think that first we need to set up a meeting of designers (which I'd like to be involved in) with the aim of getting a high concept / vision document sorted out. Skype or IRC look like the best options for such a disparate group, but maybe we should get a design mailing list set up for discussions too. The faster there is at least the skeleton of a design document, the faster the writers can be thinking about the shape of the lore, setting and meta-plot, the faster the programmers can start pointing out which aspects of the design will push the technology to its limits and the faster the design can be refined until everyone is on the same page.
From the writing side, I think it might be worth getting the beginnings of a story-bible together. A basic wiki has always served me well in this respect, especially when you have multiple contributors. Again, a mailing list might not be a bad idea for discussing ideas, but a couple of meetings just to discuss issues in real-time might not hurt.
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Some are born strange, some attain strangeness, and some have strangeness thrust upon them.
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Lothar Erfinder
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« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2011, 02:16:53 am » |
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Here's the first part of the list. The whole thing is too long for one post. Expect the next part shortly, along with my commentary. Setting: The Cog (current working title)There is a place between the nothingness of space and time, known simply as the Aether. Philosophers of ages past once called it the home of the gods, but there is only one God here. It is the Cog. This mechanical being lives outside of reality's constraints, eternal yet silent. But it has begun to awaken. Slowly it is tearing through the barriers that separate the very fabric of space and time itself. We are currently discussing potential concepts for a virtual text-based steampunk world. The current concept under the microscope is the Cog. A wonderful recent post by Lothar Erfinder deserves quoting here as it visually sums the concept up perfectly. I like the idea of the metropolis floating through the Aether, opening portals in time and space. I picture a vast mechanical city, gritty in places and shiny in others, but above all inscrutable. The city runs, it's enormous mechanisms moving with alien and portentious purpose. The brightest engineers have figured out how some of it works, but no one can tell why. But nevertheless, great toothed wheels turn slowly and giant arrays of crystals, like mad orreries or chandeliers designed by demons, spin with stately and terrifying precision, tearing holes in the air through which blow the chill winds of the stars or the raucus cries of jungle birds. Entire bouroughs shift overnight, ridding the back of the machinery that seems comprise everything here.
And amidst all of this there are peole. Natives of the city, familliar, as much as you can be, with its strange ways. Humans, and stranger things, torn from their old realities by the metropolis, or who found their way here by accident. Maybe they took a wrong turn in the streets of Vienna, or tore through the veil on their own with magic or science. Back alley sorcerors walk these streets, or stalk them. Scientists and engineers trying, desperately, to understand the workings of the place. Goblin tinkers and all manner of imigrants from Faerie, Insect-folk with chittering voices and curving bronze blades leading nomadic existences trading their wares wherever people gather. Golems and robots and strange, half-magical, half-mechanical combinations of the two. Alchemists who chip carefully at the crystal spires or trade with dryads and roof-top gardeners for regeants and catalysts to concoct their elixirs. Shipwrights and captians who design and pilot vessels out into the Aether itself.
London has become a haven of magic and technological advancement. Legendary characters from public domain literature frequent this world from Holmes to Dr.Moreau. It is a city where the mad scientist can join special societies of like minded folk and a monster hunters can band together on quests. Meanwhile science continues to advance rapidly, flying bicycles, airships, robots etc. And mixed with it all the magic of the occult has a very firm grip on society. Choose your allegiance wisely and shape London's destiny.
Hmm...just an idea off the top of my head here. What if Clock jumps around the multiverse cannibalising the locations it encounters. Ripping aspects of these realities off and merging them with itself in the Aetherspace. Maybe it does this perhaps as a form of powering up every few centuries, and Victorian London was its most recent meal. That way we get to put London IN Aetherspace.
You could always change that idea a little, turn it from cannibalising and maybe look at this...
A system of power (government/monarchy whatever) who can control and move the city. It is taken through times and places, the best parts of the locations it visits are ripped out and added to it, the worst parts simply left... in this way a city built of parts and remnants emerges; things packed together that should never meet, places where time and space are converged in ways unthought of, and people from all manner of times and worlds placed there for no better reason that the aesthetic of their land.
Just a though, adds the interesting idea of not just randomness, but some control. You could play off the idea of who controls it, how, why... also you can then add literally anything to it.
~Longeye~
Okay. Still trying to refine the ideas floating around into something mergable. I present The Cog. You get London (replicated in many ways, with famous legends and Aetherspace).
Cog
There is a place between the nothingness of space and time, known simply as the Aether. Legends tell that it is the home of the Gods, but there is only one God here. The Cog. This mechanical being lives outside of reality, eternal but silent. But now the Cog is awakening. It is beginning to tear through the barriers that separate space and time themselves.
When the Cog first encountered sentient lifeforms it began to reshape itself to accommodate them. It desired companionship. The Cog became a vast city over time. Now with holes throughout spacetime into the very heart of the Aether, creatures of all manner and kind are traveling to the great Cog in search of adventure and answers. Many of the multispace's most notable occultists, scientists, adventurers and legends have journeyed there to learn its secrets.
The Cog has very little standing water. There are no lakes or rivers here. There are some hydraulic systems that the daring can tap into, but vicious predatory fish inhabit the pipes; the legacy of an old tear in the veil, somewhere deep inside the City-Machine.
What usable water there is is either imported through any and all open portals, or collected in the many cisterns that dot the immense city. At certain points in the cycle, dew condenses out of the Aether, and from time to time violent electrical storms pound the City-Machine with heavy rains.
Stuff to do: I would say I'd like a variety of things to do in a day, but that you don't have to. For example; you're a gentleman. You could go to events, manage estates, commission things, fight duels, take over land etc. but you wouldn't have to.
I'd like to see the ability to make money easily (so you don't' have to grind) and then lots of things to spend it on... to go on adventures, to be able to join people, to help people out if you wanted (buy them a ship for example).
I'd also like to see the darker side, be a thief or assassin. Kill someone for money, or to improve your own standing.
Stuff like that.
~Longeye~
Well for things to buy that's got quite a time honoured solution in the MUDding world. In many games players 'acquire' skills that allow them to craft a vast array of objects from home decoration to vital equipment. This involves a combination of statistics based on skill level and/or the descriptive prowess of the crafter. Property is also another long followed tradition in the genre with many players, alliances etc buying land and building on it.
As for making money easily, I disagree somewhat. Don't get wrong, grinding is cumbersome and should only be one option for a player (if one at all) making money should be seen as another way of playing the game. Offering a variety of avenues to pursue this would be the key to a strong economy.
Things like being a thief or an assassin would fall into classes and their subsequent skillsets (should that style of game design be approached).
Society Editor
Economy Editor
Robot Crafting
Botany Crafting
Mount/Airship Crafting
Gun Crafting
Clan System
Players designing their own guns Botany as subset of Alchemy Exploration. The Cog is a big place, and wild in its way. Players should be able to explore not only places they've never been, but, if they're clever or skilled enough, places no one's ever ever been. And then there are all those portals opening up to various times and places.
Combat. With swords and knives and firearms and death rays. To keep it simple let's say melee and ranged, and then various weapons can be sub-specialities of the two skills. The Cog is, again, wild in its way, and there are all sorts of unfreindly people, predatory creatures and assorted hazards that make carrying a weapon practical. Combat should by no means be the focus of the game, but it should be a factor.
Crafting and Trade. You should be able to find stuff in your explorations, whether junk or priceless artifacts, that you can sell, use to make other objects to sell, or trade to NPCs and other PCs. You should be able to plant a garden and sell produce, or rare herbs. You should be able to open a smithy.
Technical aspects: (I'd personally like to see us write a high speed server in Python or Javascript. These can handle more traffic than DikuMUD for example and are superior languages for high level text handling. Rather than building off an existing codebase which would cripple extensibility and maintainability, I'd support building from scratch. More time, more effort, more freedom for expansion. Also it avoids any licensing issues if we ever took a commercial angle.)
I think the code will be the biggest challenge... even using the relative simplicity of Javascript.... Python I'm not sure about obviously, but Javascript will still take a long time. It might be best to work both angles at the same time; build a base for the game (databases will be needed, persistence and interfaces etc.) whilst working on the details of the content. Once the game is at a state it can take information (because remember, you can't start coding information until you have somewhere to put it, which will take a while) you can start adding this information in. Depending how you code it you could make it VERY easy to add things, just by appending them to various lists or even just arrays (tough then you'd need an array map).
As for basic initial functions:
Networking
Command Parsing
Storage
ASCII Maps
-What engine do we use? We can use Flixel, which is an actionscript-based game engine. I just discovered this today, but I would be willing to learn it.( http://www.flixel.org/index.html ) How do we structure the game architecture? What other languages will be involved? Is this game going to be multiplayer? Where are we going to get server space?(Expensive!) A programming team should answer this. Races: I would very much like to see different species, as in, not just humanoid (elven, fairy, gnome, etc.) Something a bit bizarre, like garuda, or insect based, that have developed their own tech and traditions.
Perhaps even robots as a race could be considered. Any non-humanoid race would need to be well understood regarding its placement in the game world first though. I was thinking the door could be opened to furries as people from the island of Dr.Moreau. Would open the door to more players I imagine. Hrm. If we're just throwing ideas out there, then humans, not-quite-human-but-pretty-close natives, Insectmen, Reptile people (not necessarily all lizards. Snake and crocodile men, too), Automata, Golems, Frankenstein-style constructs, Beast people (Moreau uplifts or naturally occurring or, hell, both), Werethings (wolf, bear, lobster, etc. Overlaps with Beast People), Fae (Goblins, Naiads, Dryads, Dwarves and Duregar, elves and the rest), Vampires of one sort or another (Orlok or Dracula or Salem's Lot style). Humans... Er... Human variants? (short humans, skinny humans, big humans, etc.) I am not sure how much going the full arcanum route appeals to me. In some ways, it might be nice to have non-humans, but the generic Middle-Earth / D&D selection (elf, dwarf, halfling, with optional half-orc and gnome) are overdone. Social strata extending to racial differences (the 'heavy lifter' caste are large, muscular and none-too-bright, while the engineer caste are smaller and resistant to occupational hazards and the nobility are intellectual but physically-unimposing - I know they almost map to D&D's 'ogre / orc', 'dwarf / gnome', 'elf / eladrin' races, but flavour is important) might work, but I am bored of the same racial options every time. I like races, I prefer elves to any other, but I think they're used in everything and that's not necessarily a good thing. It might be more interesting to simply have different backgrounds as your 'race' and then build from that. If you're from a jungle area you're better at foraging, faster, more agile and better at stealth (as examples obviously). Probably still need a 'broad' species class though, some suggestions (I'm honestly against the traditional orcs/elves etc. route):
Humans - given
Anthropomorphic Animals - Dr. Moreau creations
Reanimated - Dr. Frankenstein creations
Undead - Dracula community
Automata - Self operating machines
Golems - Inanimate matter shaped and brought to life
Shapeshifters
Fae - beings of spirit, incorporeal usually
These are all very broad definitions with a lot of variety inherent in them. Something like the Wild Hunt is very different from something like a Red Cap, even though both are Fae. Mummies and Ghouls and Vampires are all Undead, but again, very different. If I want to play a Golem carved out of a single emerald and my friend wants to play one built painstaingly of matchsticks and animated by a fire elemental, how much of that will be crunch we need mechanics for, and how much will be fluff?
Skills: I've been writing out some basic skill list ideas.
Mounts - working on this skillset opens up access to more and more advanced mounts and customizing them. From Bicycles to Airships.
Gunsmithing - allows you to build and customise guns & ammunition.
Vision - a skillset that provides visual benefits in the game such as spotting hidden entrances or seeing great distances.
Athletics/Acrobatics - Offers a variety of benefits, increased in endurance etc.
Stealth - Skills such as pickpocketing and locksmithery.
Fighting - Not put much thought here yet.
People - Social skills, not put much thought here yet.
Telepathy - Telepathic abilities
Enchanting
Alchemy
Robotics Crafting - Build and sell robots.
Surgery - Follow in Dr. Frankenstein's footsteps and offer ligmentary upgrades to your fellow adventurers.
Magic
Public Domain: I think they would make for really good cameos. you could pass them in the street, or meet them at that new pub that just opened down the road and will only be there for a fortnight before the gears turn and crush it, or they're a passenger on the same train. You could hear a little about what they're doing in whatever newspaper you've managed to subscribe to, or over the wireless, when it works.
They could work as the instigators of quest lines, too, as either the villain or the recruiter. Maybe the Time Traveler has gotten stuck on Cog and needs help navigating the streets to find what he needs to repair the time machine. Or maybe some morlocks got pulled through by the dimensional gates and he's come to make sure they don't get up to no good, recruiting the player along the way. Maybe you hear Robur is attacking the shipyard and run off to help. Like Holmes, Tesla and Arsene Lupin? I suppose it depends how they were used. Generally, I think established characters might be too easily overused and could detract from the players' efforts by dint of their inherent 'awesomeness' if they had a foreground role. Well I'd love to hear as I'm running around "JACK THE RIPPER ON THE LOSE AGAIN!" but then I wouldn't like to come into contact with Holmes or have to arrest (whatever) the Ripper as this would put me up against them... I don't want to be personally involved with them as that'll instantly overshadow me. Genre & Theme: I think that the world should definitely be dark and gritty in places, and there should be horror present, but I think there's also room for classic fantasy and even a little comedy. Discworld is by its nature silly even when it's dead earnest, and I don't think that The Cog should be silly, but neither should it be grimdark. Serious, but with lightheartedness and abject terror both very real possibilities. I think a lighter touch, along the lines of Lupin and Holmes crossed with some optional King Solomon's Mines rather than Jack the Ripper with optional Lovecraft. The best MUSH games, I feel, are the ones where character has a chance to shine through. I like the idea of a game where we spend as much time talking in the gentleman's club (ladies welcome, of course) about our adventures as we do actually having them. I'd like fantasy with some horror, but using humour. The diskworld has too much humour I think for this game, but a little humour here and there both brightens things up and also gives it realism. In real life people do make jokes, no matter how bad, to each other.... especially to dispel tension (though sometimes you won't want to do this obviously). |
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 02:27:22 am by Lothar Erfinder »
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Lothar Erfinder
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« Reply #77 on: June 10, 2011, 02:31:32 am » |
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Alright, here's part two of the ideas list. I've tried to condense as much information into here as possible, and sifting through discussion for the ideas was tricky, but I've included everything I felt was essential, and left a lot of discussion to just sit in the thread. Attributes: Base Attribute Concepts
Health
A representation of the number of hit points you can absorb before succumbing to death.
Endurance
This decreases during physical exertion and increases whilst resting, once it reaches 0 you pass out.
Strength
A representation of a characters's physical power and might, it affects what weapons he is strong enough to wield effectively, his chances to strike a foe in combat, and the amount of damage dealt when he does so.
Accuracy
A representation of a characters's accuracy with ranged weaponry. It affects what weapons he can wield effectively, his chances of striking a foe in combat and the amount of damage dealt when he does so.
Intelligence
A representation of a character's mental quickness, magical aptitude, and problem-solving abilities, it is of critical importance to spell-casters, as it affects their concentration, and thus how reliably they can cast their magic spells.
Dexterity
A representation of a character's quickness, agility, balance, and hand-eye coordination. It affects a character's ability to avoid being struck by his opponents and whether he is successful when he tries to flee from combat. It also factors in many related skills as well as countering them.
Constitution
A representation of a characters overall physical health and stamina. Constitution has a strong effect on the amount of damage a character takes in combat, determines how far he can run and how long he can remain unconscious before dying, affects his maximum movement points, and factors into how speedily a character regenerates hit and movement points.
Agility
This determines the speed at which the body dodges an attack.
Stealth
Improves the ability to move silently.
Concentration
This increases the chance of a critical attack.
Precognition
Improves reaction times when using a skill. It reduces global cool downs on that skill.
So you can only increase Health and Endurance by increasing Constitution. Okay, makes sense.
Concentration and Precognition seem pretty specialised. I wonder if they should be merged under Precog? You get increased crits because you can see a little bit ahead in the fight, sort of thing.
Going on the description of Dexterity, it sounds like a better governing stat for ranged combat, what with the hand-eye coordination thing. What if Strength and Dexterity govern what weapons you can wield and how much damage you do, and then Accuracy governs how likely you are to hit and is in turn governed by the higher of Dex and Str the same way Health is governed by Constitution?
On Intelligence: It's the governing stat for both magic users and scientist-engineers, but just raising your Intelligence shouldn't raise both powers. I think that magical aptitude and mechanical skills should be the purview of skills and training, so that someone with a high Int but low Magic skill can't cast spells as effectively as someone with high Int and high Magic. That way Int is still critical for magical ability, but not responsible for it.
Concentration and Precognition seem pretty specialised. I wonder if they should be merged under Precog? You get increased crits because you can see a little bit ahead in the fight, sort of thing.
As far as I understand it (someone please correct me if I am wrong) you can't combine these. I was talking about two different aspects of gameplay mechanics. Precog affects how fast you can cast a spell after your last attempt. Concentration affects the chances of scoring a critical hit. Those are seperate mechanics. Going on the description of Dexterity, it sounds like a better governing stat for ranged combat, what with the hand-eye coordination thing. What if Strength and Dexterity govern what weapons you can wield and how much damage you do, and then Accuracy governs how likely you are to hit and is in turn governed by the higher of Dex and Str the same way Health is governed by Constitution?
Works for me. On Intelligence: It's the governing stat for both magic users and scientist-engineers, but just raising your Intelligence shouldn't raise both powers. I think that magical aptitude and mechanical skills should be the purview of skills and training, so that someone with a high Int but low Magic skill can't cast spells as effectively as someone with high Int and high Magic. That way Int is still critical for magical ability, but not responsible for it.
We need to split these then, let's call them Intelligence and Wisdom. Wisdom attribute affects magical aptitude and intelligence mechanical aptitude. Concentration and Precognition seem pretty specialised. I wonder if they should be merged under Precog? You get increased crits because you can see a little bit ahead in the fight, sort of thing.
As far as I understand it (someone please correct me if I am wrong) you can't combine these. I was talking about two different aspects of gameplay mechanics. Precog affects how fast you can cast a spell after your last attempt. Concentration affects the chances of scoring a critical hit. Those are seperate mechanics. They are different mechanics, but it should be simple to give them the same trigger, so that increasing the Precog stat lowers cool down on spells and incereases the chance of a crit. It should be no different than Constitution increasing both Health and Endurance. On Intelligence: It's the governing stat for both magic users and scientist-engineers, but just raising your Intelligence shouldn't raise both powers. I think that magical aptitude and mechanical skills should be the purview of skills and training, so that someone with a high Int but low Magic skill can't cast spells as effectively as someone with high Int and high Magic. That way Int is still critical for magical ability, but not responsible for it.
We need to split these then, let's call them Intelligence and Wisdom. Wisdom attribute affects magical aptitude and intelligence mechanical aptitude. I don't think they need to be split up necessarily, just that it shouldn't be solely a stat based system. You have your inate abilities, your Attributes, which govern your capacity to learn, and then you have skills, which are what you have learned. So someone with high Intelligence can more easily learn and apply both magic and science, but they need the requisite Skills to actually do so. Magic: Yes, definitely. Hermetic Magic, Alchemy, Hedge-wizardry, you name it. There are so many branches of magic and they're all interesting. Of course some might not be thematically consistent, but this is just brainstorming.
Not fireballs and summoning demons, more along the line of utilitarian magic. The ability to call on spirits for information, to sense disturbances in the aether when non-humans are present, render yourself less notable, maybe locate a person by acquiring a personal item, etc.
This should be included in the packages I think, if you have certain backgrounds you should have a type of magic. I think everyone should have magic to some degree, whether or not they use it, and it should be evident everywhere.
Classes & Advancement: I think that, while classes provide a lot of focus, they also limit flexibility quite a bit. I would favour a point buy system. That way you can put all your points into a narrow skill set for the equivalent of a class like thief or magician, but you can also spread them out and have a little bit of everything, Jack-Of-All-Trades style. Classes are probably a necessary evil. I would tend to prefer the 'packages' approach (e.g. a class is a set of starting skills and maybe a guild membership) rather than a strict progression-path that restricts skills to specific classes. Again, I love the idea of having no classes but given a start in life. You are an engineer; you don't have the engineer class but you work for a ship yard perhaps, you have a house, a certain amount of income, options t work here/there and are well known in a local tavern. This gives you a realistic grounding in the world, but doesn't limit where you can go. With enough work you could amass enough money to move into a mansion and become a gentleman... the key idea is that you aren't bound by the class you chose, it's just an entrance to the world. Cog seems like it would be a very party based game, joining a menagerie of gentlemen/ladies clubs, expedition groups, crewing on airships etc.
What if each organisation had a separate level system. Most games allow you to level through a specific method, solving enough puzzles, killing enough creatures etc. What if we have several organization categories: combat, exploration, invention, social, magic, botany, brewing (just examples). Now when a new organization is formed it must select the appropriate category during creation. When a player joins that org they get an org level. They can increase their level and subsequent status by performing tasks appropriate to that catagory of org. In this fashion a leveling system is not limited to magic or combat and it becomes another tool for major social interaction and keeping the game fresh.
Clever idea, but supposing you join an airship crew and get attacked by pirates. Fighting the pirates won't help you level if your org system is dependent on exploration or trade or anything else. So what if, when you join an org, you pick a primary system, that will let you level faster than anything else, but that does not preclude gaining experience from other activities?
Also, there are going to be people who would rather go solo than join a group. Will they have to create parties of one, or will there be some sort of lone-wolf option specifically for single players?
-Do we really want an attribute system? If so, do we want several skills that allow the players to diversify, or do we want 2 or 3 skills that influence the playstyle of the individual player? How does this play into every other mechanic? Is it balanced? Can a player focus on any single attribute and still be useful? Do the attributes depend upon what class the player has? (Guild Wars), or do we have a couple primary skills and several secondary skills?(World of Warcraft, not recommended because everyone else is copying WoW. =P) How can we make this system different from EVERY OTHER game that uses Attributes? Are they subtle? Do they drastically decide what the player can do?
-What about an ability system? A player can purchase "modules" that give them a slightly helpful boost and are customizable to the individuals play-style?(Bioshock, Crysis 2) |
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karftw
Deck Hand
 Australia
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« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2011, 02:28:34 pm » |
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Hello again, So it seems like this thread has slowed down a little bit, but it looks like there are still quite a few keen people. Given that I've worked on similar projects before, I figured I might drop in and see if we can't get the ball rolling on this thing. Firstly, forums are obviously great for discussion, but they're not the best for collecting information and collaborating on content. For that reason, I set up a wiki for this project over at cog.steamprank.com. This doesn't need to be a permanent home for the project, but I felt it would be useful to have a place to store information. It's completely empty at the moment (apart from the main page layout ripped from Wikipedia >_>), but it's also completely open, so feel free to add content if you feel like it. It could do with a lot more structure, obviously, but that can left until we have a better idea of where we're going. Duellist's suggestion is a very good one, so I'm going to be hanging out in #cogmud on irc.freenode.net when I can, if anyone wants to drop in. I also have Skype if necessary. A hands up from people interested in bashing out the fundamentals of the design would be nice, then we could identify a good time to discuss stuff together in real time. From a world development perspective, there's nothing stopping anyone from diving in and starting work on the lore, the setting and so forth - with community input, of course. Being text-based, writing is just as important to MUDs as programming is, and it would be awesome to see work continue on that front. From a game design perspective, I think the most important thing is to identify the different areas of gameplay and the central ideas in each area. There's been a good start on this front in this thread. Once that's been done, a list of core systems can be developed and these can be developed in greater detail as time goes on. From a programming perspective, the most pressing matters are a choice of codebase (I have a few thoughts on that) and the identification of core systems (skills, combat, crafting, etc.). Once those have been decided, programming work can begin with design input as needed. Anyway, I'd really like to see this project get going, so if anyone's particularly keen please do stop by the wiki/IRC room and we can get started. |
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Augustus Longeye
Daedric Lord of Biscuits
Moderator
Rogue Ætherlord
 United Kingdom
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« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2011, 03:16:52 pm » |
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Firstly; Lothar thanks for that summary! That is a very very good place to start  I've had a look at the wiki and it'll be very useful for getting ideas in a solid state and building the world up! The IRC is new (haven't used one before) but seems to be a good idea as well... Let's try not to let the project die! ~Longeye~ |
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I say you, chaps down there! Piss off, see? Haa ha! Love, Space Longeye <3 |
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Lothar Erfinder
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« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2011, 09:30:55 pm » |
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I'm glad the lists will be useful; they were a nuisance to write up, and I'd hate to have done it for nothing. I've had a look at the wiki as well, and the irc channel. I think both are great ideas, although I expect dificulties organising everybody for a real-time chat. I'm certainly happy to help with design, but my forte is writing, so mostly I'll be working on the wiki. Still, if we can agree on a time for a chat I'll be there.
Actually, I'm there now, if anybody would care to drop in, and will be for a couple of hours.
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Maize
Officer
 Italy
Wolf Beaumont
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« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2011, 09:51:14 pm » |
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Hey everyone, sorry for the noncom this past week, no excuse for it really except to say that I wanted to see this project stand up on its own without my constant prodding. I've tried carrying projects in the past and it's always ended a rather messy affair so it's refreshing to see so many getting stuck in. You've all certainly done that and more. Welcome to all the new people and thanks to all the old group so far. Special thanks to Lothar for his project organizing and karftw for setting up the wiki and IRC channel. I'll try to be in the IRC channel as much as possible from this point on. I made a request for a child board for us on BG, in Aural as I feel whilst a wiki has very specific discussion areas, in reality a forum would be very useful in breaking down progress etc. However I think its going to consume to much of their limited resources, so if you all think a forum is the right choice does anyone have any suggestions of where to set one up?
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karftw
Deck Hand
Australia
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« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2011, 04:44:11 am » |
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I'd be happy to set up a forum on my server, if that's ok with you guys.
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Maize
Officer
Italy
Wolf Beaumont
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« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2011, 06:58:49 pm » |
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Dear Moderators,
Could you please move this thread to the new 'The Cog' child board in the Textual>Portrayal section?
Thank you.
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Augustus Longeye
Daedric Lord of Biscuits
Moderator
Rogue Ætherlord
United Kingdom
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« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2011, 07:03:55 pm » |
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I think you either PM or message them, I don't think many moderators will read this specific post.
~Longeye~
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Lothar Erfinder
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« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2011, 04:11:09 am » |
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I've made a thread for lore writing and discussion in the Cog board. Come and have a look, the link is here. |
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Maize
Officer
Italy
Wolf Beaumont
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« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2011, 10:25:15 pm » |
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Still waiting for someone to move this thread, I did PM a mod about it some time ago.
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Kiara
Deck Hand
 United States
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« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2011, 09:32:05 pm » |
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So I found this thread while looking for a Steampunk Mush! I know both myself and a large group of my friends would be interested...
So here's my two pence (And then some) on the matter. Take the advice as you will, I'm a long term Mu*er, I've been doing it constantly since 1999, and I've seen dozens of mu*s I've been on fail or succeed, so I like to think I have some idea of what it takes.
But I see a lot of "Pro Class Based" stuff. That would be a huge mistake if you ask me. Classes are one of the worst things to have in a Social based game. Amongst many reasons being that in a Mush not everyone wants to play the sort of person who ever fits into a class based system, whether because they want to play a more typical "normal person" in the genre versus an adventurer, or classes quite quickly become restrictions that hamper a lot of creative characters. Not to mention adding levels to that creates an even more obvious divide between the super active and those who aren't. And why is that a problem? Because frankly, there's some players who are -far- more valuable to a Mu* in the one or two scenes they manage in a week than some players who do junk but play every day. Often times this latter group is the more veteran players too, just they've been getting older, have families and careers, and don't have as much time as before. But these same people are often such good players they will attract a lot of players for any scene they're a part of. But if they can't keep up because of a level system or skill system that punished anyone who is too inactive, they won't stick around as they won't feel they are wanted.
Skill based systems with reasonably slow advancement but generous CG possibilities allow people to make the character they want from the start, and at least be able to shine in one or two places whenever they can get into a scene - the super active will naturally be better in a lot more areas, but a skill based system where you can be near the cap at CG keeps less active players involved and able to keep up with the super active, allowing for easier mixed group plots. Classes? Unless you're doing dozens of them, I give the Mu* less than a week before you get people who can't match their concepts to the classes available. So just try to nip a very simple to solve problem off at the bud, because Steampunk will -shine- by allowing as much creativity amongst players as possible.
And again, remember that there -will- be players (myself usually amongst them) who will make 'normal people' of some manner. The sorts who aren't 'hero' or 'villain' material but instead the every day sorts who won't be adventuring, though will interact a lot. These can be the average shopkeeper or a petty tinkerer, or an Aristocratic Socialite whose idea of an adventure is shopping for her gown for next week's Soiree. These people help give life to a Mu*, and when bad things happen at that soiree? Help remind the adventuring sorts that there are innocent bystanders around. Or they might be useful as damsels in distress or other things of the sort.
Races: I'd go so far as to say human, and perhaps a few other things based on apps. A common thing I've seen on any Mu* that lets Anthropomorphic sorts be created is they quickly become overrun with Furry sorts who turn it into a sex Mu*. This isn't to say there won't be some good players amongst those making them (Or that the Moreau style engineered animals idea isn't a great one for the theme!), just keep it in mind, you will get furries who will try to make it a sex (TS) place and will flirt with everything that moves. That said, sex will happen regardless, but that's a thematic thing that will keep away some of the obvious ones that make others uncomfortable.
Clockwork Dolls could be a cool race.
Basically, my other advice is don't try to think of it in terms of D&D or an MMORPG or even a MUD. a Mush/Mux is NOT any of these. It is far closer to a LARP, and even then goes beyond because it is more persistent and constantly running. The RP is the point, not the combat. Not the skills. I've had the most fun Mu*ing on places that lacked almost any code at all, or at most had basic ones. You will of course get some people who are obsessed with it for the above, but they aren't the ones the Mu* needs to survive, as they will be the high maintenance ones who need Staffers to do anything at all. You need to cater to the sorts of players who make their own plots. Who will do silly scenes, who will do social scenes when around, and not the ones who won't do anything that isn't a GM run TP. As those ones will be the first to leave if the GMs can't make it online enough or whatever. The more social RP sorts will make their own fun within any good theme.
Finally, and I did hint at this already. But the biggest keys for a successful game is having a good setting to give RP hooks, and reasonably active plot staff (Especially to get things started). This doesn't mean they should be running TPs constantly. In fact, I recommend against being too active, as it backfires by making people start to rely on TPs to do anything. But there to help give info, to help fuel plots and use their PC(s) to help start up normal scenes. Seriously, a Fairies in Candyland game could do good just by having a dedicated enough staff and some decent hooks. Steampunk is in demand too, anytime I have seen it come up on a Mu* asking "What sort of game would you like to see" - Steampunk is quickly stated by someone. And agreed with by many others. So get your staff in place, have a grid ready, have readily accessible setting info (Both in brief for the lazy, and depth for the dedicated), and patient staff at that (Opening is stressful as hell, helping people through CG is always stressful, but a new place is tons of doing just that!)
A kick off plot is good, leave some hints for people to RP about, and one or two little TPs, but also be ready for "First Contact with PCs" as many will have ideas you never thought of. They might want to do things independently too. They may just need some new info fed to them via @mail.
I hope this all helps!
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Kiara
Deck Hand
United States
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« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2011, 09:36:34 pm » |
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OK.. I feel blind, but couldn't find an Edit option. So just one other quick addition.
Code:
Code is sometimes good. But don't make it the true focus. Too much code can ruin a game as surely as anything else. Granted, it's sometimes seen as a feature too. But games can be quite successful with very little at all. And the more code you use, the more headache and work you might have.
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Augustus Longeye
Daedric Lord of Biscuits
Moderator
Rogue Ætherlord
United Kingdom
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« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2011, 10:54:30 pm » |
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I agree 100% with Kiara. The story we can't really do big ones for, as people will run their own little ones... THE most important thing is a good world, that's the lore and the setting. People can role-play damn near everything else, but that's the thing that'll provide the hooks.
The best MUSH I've played so far is the Lord of the Ring Elendor MUSH, where there aren't really classes just races and factions... you have no skills (that I've found) you just wander around a really detailed and amazing world, and RP with people. It's sociable, it's fun and I love it for those reasons, not the impressive code features (there are a few).
~Longeye~
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karftw
Deck Hand
Australia
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« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2011, 08:58:18 am » |
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Basically, my other advice is don't try to think of it in terms of D&D or an MMORPG or even a MUD. a Mush/Mux is NOT any of these. While there's been some mention of MUSHes in this thread, I don't think it was ever decided what type of MU* this would be, nor do I think the perceived differences between MUDs, MUSHes, MUXes, MOOs and so forth are really that important. Ultimately it's a game, and if people feel that the game should have classes/levels/whatever, why should it matter whether that's typical or not of a particular game type? I happen to agree with some of the points in your post, but I think you've got a set of assumptions that may differ from other people's. Consider statements like: "The RP is the point, not the combat. Not the skills." Some people feel exactly the opposite - the combat and skills are the point, not the RP. Some people like all three equally. As a player, I'm an all-rounder. I like a bit of RP, I like a bit of questing, I like a bit of combat and I'm generally turned off games that don't cover all three bases properly. There are probably others in this thread who feel differently, and I think it makes sense for a community effort to cater to a wide range of play styles. I think it's entirely possible to create a great experience in a multitude of areas - to have awesome RP, questing, combat, PvP, crafting, etc. in the one game, and to do so in a way that doesn't diminish the individual experiences in any way. I think you'll find that the most successful text-based MMOs do just this. Now I'm only really interested in the design/mechanics of this game insomuch as it relates to the code. Let me say this regarding the TinyMUD codebase and its derivatives (including the MUSH/MUX/MUCK bases): the design is interesting, but ultimately impractical. I don't really see how it's possible to build solid, sizable systems on top of it, and from that perspective it's really no surprise to me that a lot of TinyMUD-based games forgo complex features in favour of a more minimal, user-driven game. The thing is, that sort of game can still be built from a solid, well-designed base. |
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Kiara
Deck Hand
United States
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« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2011, 07:50:12 pm » |
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Basically, my other advice is don't try to think of it in terms of D&D or an MMORPG or even a MUD. a Mush/Mux is NOT any of these. While there's been some mention of MUSHes in this thread, I don't think it was ever decided what type of MU* this would be, nor do I think the perceived differences between MUDs, MUSHes, MUXes, MOOs and so forth are really that important. Ultimately it's a game, and if people feel that the game should have classes/levels/whatever, why should it matter whether that's typical or not of a particular game type? I happen to agree with some of the points in your post, but I think you've got a set of assumptions that may differ from other people's. Consider statements like: "The RP is the point, not the combat. Not the skills." Some people feel exactly the opposite - the combat and skills are the point, not the RP. Some people like all three equally. As a player, I'm an all-rounder. I like a bit of RP, I like a bit of questing, I like a bit of combat and I'm generally turned off games that don't cover all three bases properly. There are probably others in this thread who feel differently, and I think it makes sense for a community effort to cater to a wide range of play styles. I think it's entirely possible to create a great experience in a multitude of areas - to have awesome RP, questing, combat, PvP, crafting, etc. in the one game, and to do so in a way that doesn't diminish the individual experiences in any way. I think you'll find that the most successful text-based MMOs do just this. Now I'm only really interested in the design/mechanics of this game insomuch as it relates to the code. Let me say this regarding the TinyMUD codebase and its derivatives (including the MUSH/MUX/MUCK bases): the design is interesting, but ultimately impractical. I don't really see how it's possible to build solid, sizable systems on top of it, and from that perspective it's really no surprise to me that a lot of TinyMUD-based games forgo complex features in favour of a more minimal, user-driven game. The thing is, that sort of game can still be built from a solid, well-designed base. Well, that comes down to the core question, Mush/Mux or MUD? Because the former IS about RP, the latter more about code and combat. The latter, even the most stringently enforced RP versions, have never in my experience fared like even some of the worst MUSHes in terms of Roleplaying. You will always get code only sorts who play it to fight and such. Even on some MUSH version you get that. That said, the Code... well, that depends, there's some real ACE coders out there. I've seen things as complex as Real Time 3d (Well, via coordinates) Space Combat being done on Star Wars places. And that's just MUSH codebase. It isn't necessarilly something you can just say is impractical, because a lot of people can do some crazy stuff with it, you just need to find them. But again, MUSH/MUX is far more practical for Roleplaying base, MUD if the interest is code and fighting and skills and such. MUSH/MUX can certainly have the latter, but it WILL encourage people to be there roleplaying instead of grinding through MOBS or whatever. Obviously, I'm arguing for MUSH/MUX, as I won't touch MUD, I'm about Social RP and high level politicking in my RP prefs. |
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 07:54:32 pm by Kiara »
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