Build a virtual steampunk world with us!

[Maize]

The Cog (current working title)

There is a place between the nothingness of space and time, known simply as the Aether. Philosophers of ages past once called it the home of the gods, but there is only one God here. It is the Cog. This mechanical being lives outside of reality's constraints, eternal yet silent. But it has begun to awaken. Slowly it is tearing through the barriers that separate the very fabric of space and time itself.

We are currently discussing potential concepts for a virtual text-based steampunk world. The current concept under the microscope is the Cog. A wonderful recent post by Lothar Erfinder deserves quoting here as it visually sums the concept up perfectly.

I like the idea of the metropolis floating through the Aether, opening portals in time and space. I picture a vast mechanical city, gritty in places and shiny in others, but above all inscrutable. The city runs, it's enormous mechanisms moving with alien and portentious purpose. The brightest engineers have figured out how some of it works, but no one can tell why. But nevertheless, great toothed wheels turn slowly and giant arrays of crystals, like mad orreries or chandeliers designed by demons, spin with stately and terrifying precision, tearing holes in the air through which blow the chill winds of the stars or the raucus cries of jungle birds. Entire bouroughs shift overnight, ridding the back of the machinery that seems comprise everything here.

And amidst all of this there are peole. Natives of the city, familliar, as much as you can be, with its strange ways. Humans, and stranger things, torn from their old realities by the metropolis, or who found their way here by accident. Maybe they took a wrong turn in the streets of Vienna, or tore through the veil on their own with magic or science. Back alley sorcerors walk these streets, or stalk them. Scientists and engineers trying, desperately, to understand the workings of the place. Goblin tinkers and all manner of imigrants from Faerie, Insect-folk with chittering voices and curving bronze blades leading nomadic existences trading their wares wherever people gather. Golems and robots and strange, half-magical, half-mechanical combinations of the two. Alchemists who chip carefully at the crystal spires or trade with dryads and roof-top gardeners for regeants and catalysts to concoct their elixirs. Shipwrights and captians who design and pilot vessels out into the Aether itself.

Below is the original first post, archived for continuity purposes.

First off I'm going to be talking about virtual worlds that are text-based. These are known as MU*'s:

What is a MU*?
MU* is a shorthand reference to a collective family of text-based multi-user virtual world servers. There are many different types and this article can tell you more if the definition interests you further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MU*

They are the precursor to the currently popular MMORPG's which are the graphics based decendants of the MU* family. Now you might think MU*'s are dead but nothing could be further from the truth, there are still many strong MU*'s out there with anything from dozens to hundreds of players. They remain popular in an underground fashion because the immersion and subsequent role-play factor is considered far stronger than any current generation virtual worlds. As we all know, our imagination is still the most potent medium of visualization and I personally believe it will continue to be long after MMORPG's have been upsurged by their own technological offspring. The point is MU*'s still exist, can still be created, are devilishly fun to play and still have plenty of potential given the right ideas, interest and focus.

The Brass Goggles community seems like the perfect environment to find such people for a Steampunk based MU*. We've got every kind of creative talent living in the woodwork and so I'd like to invite all those people to contribute to this topic concerning what they would 'like' to see in a virtual steampunk world.

If people show interest perhaps some of us could form a preliminary panel to seriously discuss the building of one and what we could hope to achieve. Ultimately if I decide to dedicate my own time, skills and/or resources to any such project, I'd be looking to build something for the long term, not just a quick muck around. Those are the kind of people this message goes out too as well. Anyway I won't make this message too long. So let's begin. If you could play in a text based virtual steampunk world what features would you like to be a part of it?

Also please forgive me if I've come across as rather vague. I'm just wary of coming along as the new man about town saying oh let's build something grand. I'm hoping to get to know members of the community first and then I'll start sprouting my mouth off about building something just a little bit grand.

[Maize]

Plenty of views, no comments yet though, which I hope this post can change. I've been knocking around some thoughts on what sort of setting would work as a general sort of steampunk base setting to appeal to the majority of the genre's fans. Something that isn't too limiting but not too big either. I started thinking about Dr.Who then I started thinking about HGW's 'The Time Machine' then I saw an episode of Stargate Universe on the ol'tube and then I had an idea. So the compilation gave me a clockpunk rather than a steampunk basis.

The City of Clock
An ancient mechanical clockwork city floating in Aetherspace, that which is between space and time itself. Clock is full of secrets and it seems to affect Aetherspace directly somehow, ripping holes in the very fabric of space-time. This allows for gateways all manner of locations and many potential adventures.

---

Well anyway this is just one idea and I'm more interested in talking with people about what a potential MU* could/should have rather than push my own ideas at this stage. So the floor is open, step up one and all. What do you think is needed to build a fun, long term, stable, steampunk MU*?

[Augustus Longeye]

See I like the idea, and I write a lot of lore myself (for all sorts of things) but I'm not sure about an MU*. I've made games in Java before, but they're always limited directional things, and I'm not sure how 'big' I could keep up with (not using Java just in general). I think that you want dedication might cause problems, as people naturally drift away from things as they get disinterested. I wouldn't mind helping to write lore though, I enjoy it.
~Longeye~

[Maize]

Valid points Longeye, I think a MU* can have plenty of direction with clear planning though. I've seen evidence of that and continue to see it in present projects of this variety. You're completely right about 'big' being one of the intimidating factors. But there's no valid reason to start or even aim for a big MU*. Something compact but fun can easily be built and should it prove popular expanded upon. That's part of the beauty of MU*'s, they tend to have very few limits short of those defined by yourself.

[Augustus Longeye]

I'll admit the wiki does nothing for me... what IS an MU*? Like a text based game (You're facing north) or like a D&D sort of thing without dice? If you could clear this up a little I'd be much more certain what I could do!
~Longeye~

[Maize]

Sure. Well a MU* is basically what programmers refer to for the entire family of online multiuser text based games. There are several categories in this family the most famous two of which, perhaps you've heard of them though it's completely understandable if you haven't, are MUD's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD and MUSH's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH. I'm referring to MU* in general because it's not my place to decide what the base programming language should be. Each sub-family has it's strengths and weaknesses as to what kind of gameplay they tend to offer. MUD's are the more popular of the two, tending to offer more PvP opportunities for players. A good few sites for locating MU*'s to play are:

http://www.mudconnect.com/

and

http://www.topmudsites.com/

MU*'s basically put you in a room, the room has a description, there can be objects in the room, characters and players. All are interactable to varying degrees. Players interact with this world through text based commands such as which direction to go (many commands are acronyms of up to 3 letters along with keyboard mappable hotkeys. The programming for such games can be as sophisticated as an modern MMORPG or as simple as any 1980 online game. The choice is ours.) Did this help a bit? I'm happy to answer any further questions.

[Augustus Longeye]

Ah I see now! I've googled a few sites on ways of making them as well, and I'd be happy to help. I'm not sure how useful I'll be, but I'll do what I can. It sounds like a good idea, and one we could do a hell of a lot with!
~Longeye~

[Maize]

That's great Longeye, happy to see this gaming genre interests you. As I said before such environments can be incredible immersive. What kind of game elements would you like to see in such a world? How would you want to spend your time? If you feel like doing some research you should check out a few a games like Iron Realms Entertainment games for example.

[Augustus Longeye]

I would say I'd like a variety of things to do in a day, but that you don't have to. For example; you're a gentleman. You could go to events, manage estates, commission things, fight duels, take over land etc. but you wouldn't have to.
I'd like to see the ability to make money easily (so you don't' have to grind) and then lots of things to spend it on... to go on adventures, to be able to join people, to help people out if you wanted (buy them a ship for example).
I'd also like to see the darker side, be a thief or assassin. Kill someone for money, or to improve your own standing.
Stuff like that.
~Longeye~

[Maize]

Well for things to buy that's got quite a time honoured solution in the MUDding world. In many games players 'acquire' skills that allow them to craft a vast array of objects from home decoration to vital equipment. This involves a combination of statistics based on skill level and/or the descriptive prowess of the crafter. Property is also another long followed tradition in the genre with many players, alliances etc buying land and building on it.

As for making money easily, I disagree somewhat. Don't get wrong, grinding is cumbersome and should only be one option for a player (if one at all) making money should be seen as another way of playing the game. Offering a variety of avenues to pursue this would be the key to a strong economy.

Things like being a thief or an assassin would fall into classes and their subsequent skillsets (should that style of game design be approached).

Some good ideas there. Hopefully you and I have sparked some interest in this discussion for other members of the community.

[Augustus Longeye]

Okay, so I've done a bit of looking...
If we go for a MUSH we can assume there will be little to know interplayer combat. The systems don't seem very well equip to handle this. This may be a good thing. Is it possible to have a MUSH where killing NPC's can still happen? Maybe base it on a combat ability skill level and then add an element of randomness? You could have it that if a player wins the NPC dies, if they lose then the player is caught/wounded and leave it at that. If we have interplayer combat, or WANT to have it, then using a MUD might be the better route.
Personally I prefer the social idea to the hacky-staby idea, but that's me... Also I wouldn't like to code one of these from the ground up! Unless you, Maize, can do the coding yourself I think 3rd part is the way to go...
~Longeye~

[Maize]

Glad to see you did some investigating. We'll have to see whether MUSH or MUD is the best route to take, for now it doesn't have to be decided. What we can do is come up with a list of features we'd like to see. Some things that interest me are:

Society Editor
Economy Editor
Robot Crafting
Botany Crafting
Mount/Airship Crafting
Gun Crafting
Clan System

I think if the MUD route is taken players could potentially be able to design their own guns etc. That I think would have some appeal however combat systems are indeed complex to setup and unless you build off a predefined system then it would take time to build from the ground up. I'm not a programmer. I know that's depressing news, sorry to disappoint anyone reading. However if we were to form a design group, lay out some clear documentation of our ideas as well as providing everything short of programming, there are other forums such as those I previously mentioned that specifically cater to bringing programmers and builders (room and area descriptive designers) together. All it takes is patience, planning and enthusiasm.

[Augustus Longeye]

I like all of those... I'd say Botany might be changed to perhaps something like Alchemy? Including plants as other chemicals to build a wider range of things?
I do like the idea of being able to build guns, having components and things combined in any number of ways for any number of advantages... and I LOVE the sound of outside technical help I have neither the know-how or the time to build something that big, but I can lend a hand here and there if someone knows how to do the bigger chunks...
I'd also suggest rather than Clans, could we have cities or countries? Groups of people who own actual slabs of land? Or maybe she the entire thing in a single country and have guildhalls?
~Longeye~

[Maize]

A Clan system just means a way of forming official groups with separate communication and notification channels etc. usually with special group abilities in other systems present.

With Botany I was referring to the action of growing plants and harvesting them. This would fit with your alchemy suggestion.

You mentioned lore writing, is this what you're offering assistance with?

[Augustus Longeye]

If you want. I can write lore (as I do that for a hobby) if people give me a direction to go in (if not I tend to wander on my own and come up with inconvenient details) but if you need it I can code a little in Java, Javascript, HTML (and X) and am taking chunks out of C++...
~Longeye~

[Willie Hawkes]

The first thing we want to do is set up a basic prototype. Come up with a list of all of the basic functions we want it to have, then code them into the system.

Then we can work on design and interface, getting a basic game working and making sure all of the variables are saving correctly. We would also need to make sure that the gameplay is engaging. It wouldn't be worth the effort of making the game if it weren't engaging.

Then, you can work on the plot. Overall, I would say that this would take about a year to complete and polish. Then again, I'm a perfectionist.

[Maize]

Great to have you onboard Willie.

Note what I say next is irrelevant for now. Far more important is deciding what we want to do, then making code/server decisions. However for posterity's sake here are some of my thoughts.

(I'd personally like to see us write a high speed server in Python or Javascript. These can handle more traffic than DikuMUD for example and are superior languages for high level text handling. Rather than building off an existing codebase which would cripple extensibility and maintainability, I'd support building from scratch. More time, more effort, more freedom for expansion. Also it avoids any licensing issues if we ever took a commercial angle.)

I'm going to disagree with your 1 year timetable. I think it's too generous. I expect the project would take 1.5-2 years of development for code and content before going into beta. That being said, if more people from this community get involved then things would speed up exponentially. For example I think ALOT of folks around here would enjoy designing descriptions of steampunk devices, NPC's etc. This is the perfect place to attract content providers. For the people by the people as the old saying goes.

At the end of the day, there's no rush, we just build up our design concept and work from there.

As for basic initial functions:

Networking
Command Parsing
Storage
ASCII Maps

[Augustus Longeye]

I think the code will be the biggest challenge... even using the relative simplicity of Javascript.... Python I'm not sure about obviously, but Javascript will still take a long time. It might be best to work both angles at the same time; build a base for the game (databases will be needed, persistence and interfaces etc.) whilst working on the details of the content. Once the game is at a state it can take information (because remember, you can't start coding information until you have somewhere to put it, which will take a while) you can  start adding this information in. Depending how you code it you could make it VERY easy to add things, just by appending them to various lists or even just arrays (tough then you'd need an array map).
I think 1.5-2 is more likely, that's if no big problems come up... It's a big project. But then as you say; no rush. If we get a group going we can set up some form of project section (maybe just this topic, maybe a website) where we can post what needs doing, who's doing it, how it's going etc.
I'm not making nay promises, but for storage I am currently looking into setting up a server of my own (for another reason entirely) and IF I get one up and running I'm assuming it would be possible to host from there?
~Longeye~

[Maize]

I agree with you regarding dual pipelines, one for the codebase and the second for the content, combining them once the infrastructure is ready. You're right, there should be some relative ease in combining them once ready.

There's a serious limit to my technical know-how, especially when it comes to servers. Someone else will need to fill in the blanks there. I'm offering my services as part of the administration, content and lore production.

Let's absolutely keep this low key to begin with, right now there are 3 people talking, we should keep doing that, hopefully more people like Willie today will join in the discussion. Once it feels like there's enough momentum and we have the skillsets at our disposal we can start breaking things down etc.

Thought my server knowledge is limited I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be much in the way of problems with hosting from your server.

[Maize]

We need a basic concept if we want to come up with basic building plans to put some features around. I suggested one concept in my second post regarding the city of Clock. I also invited people to post other concepts. Since no one has 'yet' (please feel free to suggest one now if you like) I've put up a poll on the subject. I invite EVERYONE on BG to vote. The concept is vague but that's all that's required right now. Something interesting, enticing and open to plenty of adaptation and expandability.

On another note I'm going to change the title, hopefully to something that will get more people engaged in the project.

Waiting for your thoughts.

Maize

[Khem Caigan]

Take a look through the old London By Gaslight pages,
by way of Archive.org:

http://tinyurl.com/3dqq5dx

<click on 'News'>

[cer0]

Oooh... this is certainly an interesting prospect.

I might be able to help with the coding aspect as well.

Somewhere to get some ideas from in regards to perhaps writing stories and the like is Echo Bazaar. The guys behind it, Failbetter Games have said quite a lot about their design processes for storylines and the like in their blog, and it's an immersive world where you can pick and choose options at your own rate and in your own way. Not the same as a MUD by any means, but an enthralling game, nonetheless.

[Maize]

Sounds great cer0. Khem I've been thinking over what you linked me too all day and it's really grown on me. It would be less fantastical than Clock but much darker and Victorian.

Here's what I'm thinking from the link.

London has become a haven of magic and technological advancement. Legendary characters from public domain literature frequent this world from Holmes to Dr.Moreau. It is a city where the mad scientist can join special societies of like minded folk and a monster hunters can band together on quests. Meanwhile science continues to advance rapidly, flying bicycles, airships, robots etc. And mixed with it all the magic of the occult has a very firm grip on society. Choose your allegiance wisely and shape London's destiny.

For posterity's sake I'll just refer to it as London now. Thanks Khem. I'm restarting the poll with London and Clock as choices, again please feel free to suggest other ideas or vote that neither is suitable.

Let's make a deadline for a concept decision. Any thoughts when to set it for?

PP: New thread in Textual <a href="http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30899.0.html">here</a> regarding what works are in the public domain in which countries.

[Augustus Longeye]

See I like the idea of an aether based city as you have the advantage of being able to go to different places with less reasoning. Let's say I'm in London and want to go to a jungle, how the hell do I do that? Which one? How do I get there?
Now let's say I'm in the middle of Aether, I want to go to a jungle I just pop through a portal to a 'jungle climate' place.
Just my thoughts, but I prefer the freedom of an aether city.
~Longeye~

[Maize]

Perhaps there is a way to combine the two. We've not talked about the style of the city Clock itself just its location. Perhaps Clock can be a place where these characters exist, pulled from their own worlds into the Aetherspace. I like the location of Clock but I also like using Public Domain characters. Any thoughts on how to merge the concepts folks?