Build a virtual steampunk world with us!

[Lothar Erfinder]

1) Races.

Hrm. If we're just throwing ideas out there, then humans, not-quite-human-but-pretty-close natives, Insectmen, Reptile people (not necessarily all lizards. Snake and crocodile men, too), Automata, Golems, Frankenstein-style constructs, Beast people (Moreau uplifts or naturally occurring or, hell, both), Werethings (wolf, bear, lobster, etc. Overlaps with Beast People), Fae (Goblins, Naiads, Dryads, Dwarves and Duregar, elves and the rest), Vampires of one sort or another (Orlok or Dracula or Salem's Lot style).

There are a lot more possibilities, but certain things are tricky to make as PCs.

2) Public Domain Characters.

I think they would make for really good cameos. you could pass them in the street, or meet them at that new pub that just opened down the road and will only be there for a fortnight before the gears turn and crush it, or they're a passenger on the same train. You could hear a little about what they're doing in whatever newspaper you've managed to subscribe to, or over the wireless, when it works.

They could work as the instigators of quest lines, too, as either the villain or the recruiter. Maybe the Time Traveler has gotten stuck on Cog and needs help navigating the streets to find what he needs to repair the time machine. Or maybe some morlocks got pulled through by the dimensional gates and he's come to make sure they don't get up to no good, recruiting the player along the way. Maybe you hear Robur is attacking the shipyard and run off to help.

3) Genre and Theme

I think that the world should definitely be dark and gritty in places, and there should be horror present, but I think there's also room for classic fantasy and even a little comedy. Discworld is by its nature silly even when it's dead earnest, and I don't think that The Cog should be silly, but neither should it be grimdark. Serious, but with lightheartedness and abject terror both very real possibilities.

4) Classes.

I think that, while classes provide a lot of focus, they also limit flexibility quite a bit. I would favour a point buy system. That way you can put all your points into a narrow skill set for the equivalent of a class like thief or magician, but you can also spread them out and have a little bit of everything, Jack-Of-All-Trades style.

5) Magic

Yes, definitely. Hermetic Magic, Alchemy, Hedge-wizardry, you name it. There are so many branches of magic and they're all interesting. Of course some might not be thematically consistent, but this is just brainstorming.

[Duellist]

My day-job is narrative design, a kind of writer-designer for games with years of experience in both of those disciplines separately.  The more I read here, the more I want to offer my services to this project.  I also teach both disciplines to students, so I am happy to help out just in an advisory role if that is what you need. 

As to your questions...

1) What kind of races would you like to see?
Humans...  Er...  Human variants? (short humans, skinny humans, big humans, etc.)  I am not sure how much going the full arcanum route appeals to me.  In some ways, it might be nice to have non-humans, but the generic Middle-Earth / D&D selection (elf, dwarf, halfling, with optional half-orc and gnome) are overdone.  Social strata extending to racial differences (the 'heavy lifter' caste are large, muscular and none-too-bright, while the engineer caste are smaller and resistant to occupational hazards and the nobility are intellectual but physically-unimposing - I know they almost map to D&D's 'ogre / orc', 'dwarf / gnome', 'elf / eladrin' races, but flavour is important) might work, but I am bored of the same racial options every time.

2) Would you like to see characters from the Public Domain as mobiles*?
Like Holmes, Tesla and Arsene Lupin?  I suppose it depends how they were used.  Generally, I think established characters might be too easily overused and could detract from the players' efforts by dint of their inherent 'awesomeness' if they had a foreground role.

3) What genre would you like to see the game? Obviously steampunk, but would you like to blend it with fantasy/comedy/horror? Would you go in the direction of the comedic Discworld series or dark and gritty like so many of the Victorian classics we love?
I think a lighter touch, along the lines of Lupin and Holmes crossed with some optional King Solomon's Mines rather than Jack the Ripper with optional Lovecraft.  The best MUSH games, I feel, are the ones where character has a chance to shine through.  I like the idea of a game where we spend as much time talking in the gentleman's club (ladies welcome, of course) about our adventures as we do actually having them.

4) Do you want a game with classes? (generic examples: monk/thief/warrior/magician) Classes can give a game a more structured feeling and a sense of progression. They can also provide roleplaying boundaries.
Classes are probably a necessary evil.  I would tend to prefer the 'packages' approach (e.g. a class is a set of starting skills and maybe a guild membership) rather than a strict progression-path that restricts skills to specific classes.

5) Do you want magic in the gameplay?
For my sins, yes.  Not fireballs and summoning demons, more along the line of utilitarian magic.  The ability to call on spirits for information, to sense disturbances in the aether when non-humans are present, render yourself less notable, maybe locate a person by acquiring a personal item, etc.   

[Augustus Longeye]

Races:
I'm inclined to agree with Duellist. I like races, I prefer elves to any other, but I think they're used in everything and that's not necessarily a good thing. It might be more interesting to simply have different backgrounds as your 'race' and then build from that. If you're from a jungle area you're better at foraging, faster, more agile and better at stealth (as examples obviously).

Public Domain:
Well I'd love to hear as I'm running around "JACK THE RIPPER ON THE LOSE AGAIN!" but then I wouldn't like to come into contact with Holmes or have to arrest (whatever) the Ripper as this would put me up against them... I don't want to be personally involved with them as that'll instantly overshadow me.

Genre:
I'd like fantasy with some horror, but using humour. The diskworld has too much humour I think for this game, but a little humour here and there both brightens things up and also gives it realism. In real life people do make jokes, no matter how bad, to each other.... especially to dispel tension (though sometimes you won't want to do this obviously).

Classes:
Again, I love the idea of having no classes but given a start in life. You are an engineer; you don't have the engineer class but you work for a ship yard perhaps, you have a house, a certain amount of income, options t work here/there and are well known in a local tavern. This gives you a realistic grounding in the world, but doesn't limit where you can go. With enough work you could amass enough money to move into a mansion and become a gentleman... the key idea is that you aren't bound by the class you chose, it's just an entrance to the world.

Magic:
Yes. Easy as. This should be included in the packages I think, if you have certain backgrounds you should have a type of magic I think everyone should have magic to some degree, whether or not they use it, and it should be evident everywhere.

Just my musings!
~Longeye~

[Maize]

If you're from a jungle area you're better at foraging, faster, more agile and better at stealth (as examples obviously).

Now there's an idea. Makes me think of Arcanum and choosing your childhood background. We could offer several dozen each with their own variables.

Probably still need a 'broad' species class though, some suggestions (I'm honestly against the traditional orcs/elves etc. route):

Humans - given
Anthropomorphic Animals - Dr. Moreau creations
Reanimated - Dr. Frankenstein creations
Undead - Dracula community
Automata - Self operating machines
Golems  - Inanimate matter shaped and brought to life
Shapeshifters
Fae - beings of spirit, incorporeal usually

[Lothar Erfinder]

I like the idea of species & background for character creation, and this list of species is a good starting place, but it brings up a point that may be out of place this early in the project, but that I feel needs to be made anyway.

These are all very broad definitions with a lot of variety inherent in them. Something like the Wild Hunt is very different from something like a Red Cap, even though both are Fae. Mummies and Ghouls and Vampires are all Undead, but again, very different. If I want to play a Golem carved out of a single emerald and my friend wants to play one built painstaingly of matchsticks and animated by a fire elemental, how much of that will be crunch we need mechanics for, and how much will be fluff?

[Maize]

It's true, this brings us back to the question of MUD or MUSH, how much do we want to roleplay and how much hardcode. But it's not a question we need to address yet

We still need to conceptualize some of the core features we'd like present as well.

[Lothar Erfinder]

It's true, this brings us back to the question of MUD or MUSH, how much do we want to roleplay and how much hardcode. But it's not a question we need to address yet

It's true that we don't need to address it yet, but I think at least considering it will help keep us realistic. Otherwise, I feel like we'll end up with a lot of great ideas we'll have to throw out when we realize we can't implement them.

We still need to conceptualize some of the core features we'd like present as well.

Alright, basic list time.

Exploration. The Cog is a big place, and wild in its way. Players should be able to explore not only places they've never been, but, if they're clever or skilled enough, places no one's ever ever been. And then there are all those portals opening up to various times and places.

Combat. With swords and knives and firearms and death rays. To keep it simple let's say melee and ranged, and then various weapons can be sub-specialities of the two skills. The Cog is, again, wild in its way, and there are all sorts of unfreindly people, predatory creatures and assorted hazards that make carrying a weapon practical. Combat should by no means be the focus of the game, but it should be a factor.

Crafting and Trade. You should be able to find stuff in your explorations, whether junk or priceless artifacts, that you can sell, use to make other objects to sell, or trade to NPCs and other PCs. You should be able to plant a garden and sell produce, or rare herbs. You should be able to open a smithy.

These are just some ideas, but I think they're a good place to start.

[Maize]

Curently working on a base attributes overview suggestions to bring to everyone when I had an idea. Levels!!! Some people love them, some people hate them, and some people like some things about them and hate other things about them. Levels are a fickle business. Then I had this idea. Tell me what you think.

Cog seems like it would be a very party based game, joining a menagerie of gentlemen/ladies clubs, expedition groups, crewing on airships etc.

What if each organisation had a separate level system. Most games allow you to level through a specific method, solving enough puzzles, killing enough creatures etc. What if we have several organization categories: combat, exploration, invention, social, magic, botany, brewing (just examples). Now when a new organization is formed it must select the appropriate category during creation. When a player joins that org they get an org level. They can increase their level and subsequent status by performing tasks appropriate to that catagory of org. In this fashion a leveling system is not limited to magic or combat and it becomes another tool for major social interaction and keeping the game fresh.

[Lothar Erfinder]

Clever idea, but supposing you join an airship crew and get attacked by pirates. Fighting the pirates won't help you level if your org system is dependent on exploration or trade or anything else. So what if, when you join an org, you pick a primary system, that will let you level faster than anything else, but that does not preclude gaining experience from other activities?

Also, there are going to be people who would rather go solo than join a group. Will they have to create parties of one, or will there be some sort of lone-wolf option specifically for single players?

[Maize]

That's rather clever, good idea.

On a literary side, given that this project will take a 'great' deal of time to reach beta, should it even start. How about we have an RP thread. I'm going to start one about the search for a legendary Aethership that went to the Cog once before and has records on how to return.

[Lothar Erfinder]

I think it should definitely start! It will take a long time, true, but everything great does. We've got good ideas and some dedicated people, and I think we can do this.

As for an RP thread, that's not a bad idea. It will let us test out some our concepts of setting, theme, and lore. But it should by no means be the end of the project. We've only just begun, and I think we really should continue.

[Maize]

Introducing the RP - <a href="http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30972.0.html">Cog:the Hunt for Ætheria [Storyboard Thread]</a>. Figured on starting slow by having people actually search for a map first. Gives time to build up the concept, lots of interesting characters too. Also some interesting game dynamics I hope by having factions pitted against each other.

[Maize]

Base Attribute Concepts

Health
   A representation of the number of hit points you can absorb before succumbing to death.

Endurance
   This decreases during physical exertion and increases whilst resting, once it reaches 0 you pass out.

Strength
   A representation of a characters's physical power and might, it affects what weapons he is strong enough to wield effectively, his chances to strike a foe in combat, and the amount of damage dealt when he does so.

Accuracy
   A representation of a characters's accuracy with ranged weaponry. It affects what weapons he can wield effectively, his chances of striking a foe in combat and the amount of damage dealt when he does so.

Intelligence
   A representation of a character's mental quickness, magical aptitude, and problem-solving abilities, it is of critical importance to spell-casters, as it affects their concentration, and thus how reliably they can cast their magic spells.

Dexterity
   A representation of a character's quickness, agility, balance, and hand-eye coordination. It affects a character's ability to avoid being struck by his opponents and whether he is successful when he tries to flee from combat. It also factors in many related skills as well as countering them.

Constitution
   A representation of a characters overall physical health and stamina. Constitution has a strong effect on the amount of damage a character takes in combat, determines how far he can run and how long he can remain unconscious before dying, affects his maximum movement points, and factors into how speedily a character regenerates hit and movement points.

Agility
   This determines the speed at which the body dodges an attack.

Stealth
   Improves the ability to move silently.

Concentration
   This increases the chance of a critical attack.

Precognition
   Improves reaction times when using a skill. It reduces global cool downs on that skill.

[Lothar Erfinder]

So you can only increase Health and Endurance by increasing Constitution. Okay, makes sense.

Concentration and Precognition seem pretty specialised. I wonder if they should be merged under Precog? You get increased crits because you can see a little bit ahead in the fight, sort of thing.

Going on the description of Dexterity, it sounds like a better governing stat for ranged combat, what with the hand-eye coordination thing. What if Strength and Dexterity govern what weapons you can wield and how much damage you do, and then Accuracy governs how likely you are to hit and is in turn governed by the higher of Dex and Str the same way Health is governed by Constitution?

On Intelligence: It's the governing stat for both magic users and scientist-engineers, but just raising your Intelligence shouldn't raise both powers. I think that magical aptitude and mechanical skills should be the purview of skills and training, so that someone with a high Int but low Magic skill can't cast spells as effectively as someone with high Int and high Magic. That way Int is still critical for magical ability, but not responsible for it.

[Lothar Erfinder]

So I've been working on some lore and thought I'd post a snippet.

The Cog has very little standing water. There are no lakes or rivers here. There are some hydraulic systems that the daring can tap into, but vicious predatory fish inhabit the pipes; the legacy of an old tear in the veil, somewhere deep inside the City-Machine.

What usable water there is is either imported through any and all open portals, or collected in the many cisterns that dot the immense city. At certain points in the cycle, dew condenses out of the Aether, and from time to time violent electrical storms pound the City-Machine with heavy rains.

[Maize]

Concentration and Precognition seem pretty specialised. I wonder if they should be merged under Precog? You get increased crits because you can see a little bit ahead in the fight, sort of thing.

As far as I understand it (someone please correct me if I am wrong) you can't combine these. I was talking about two different aspects of gameplay mechanics. Precog affects how fast you can cast a spell after your last attempt. Concentration affects the chances of scoring a critical hit. Those are seperate mechanics.

Going on the description of Dexterity, it sounds like a better governing stat for ranged combat, what with the hand-eye coordination thing. What if Strength and Dexterity govern what weapons you can wield and how much damage you do, and then Accuracy governs how likely you are to hit and is in turn governed by the higher of Dex and Str the same way Health is governed by Constitution?

Works for me.

On Intelligence: It's the governing stat for both magic users and scientist-engineers, but just raising your Intelligence shouldn't raise both powers. I think that magical aptitude and mechanical skills should be the purview of skills and training, so that someone with a high Int but low Magic skill can't cast spells as effectively as someone with high Int and high Magic. That way Int is still critical for magical ability, but not responsible for it.

We need to split these then, let's call them Intelligence and Wisdom. Wisdom attribute affects magical aptitude and intelligence mechanical aptitude.

[Lothar Erfinder]

Concentration and Precognition seem pretty specialised. I wonder if they should be merged under Precog? You get increased crits because you can see a little bit ahead in the fight, sort of thing.

As far as I understand it (someone please correct me if I am wrong) you can't combine these. I was talking about two different aspects of gameplay mechanics. Precog affects how fast you can cast a spell after your last attempt. Concentration affects the chances of scoring a critical hit. Those are seperate mechanics.

They are different mechanics, but it should be simple to give them the same trigger, so that increasing the Precog stat lowers cool down on spells and incereases the chance of a crit. It should be no different than Constitution increasing both Health and Endurance.

On Intelligence: It's the governing stat for both magic users and scientist-engineers, but just raising your Intelligence shouldn't raise both powers. I think that magical aptitude and mechanical skills should be the purview of skills and training, so that someone with a high Int but low Magic skill can't cast spells as effectively as someone with high Int and high Magic. That way Int is still critical for magical ability, but not responsible for it.

We need to split these then, let's call them Intelligence and Wisdom. Wisdom attribute affects magical aptitude and intelligence mechanical aptitude.

I don't think they need to be split up necessarily, just that it shouldn't be solely a stat based system. You have your inate abilities, your Attributes, which govern your capacity to learn, and then you have skills, which are what you have learned. So someone with high Intelligence can more easily learn and apply both magic and science, but they need the requisite Skills to  actually do so.

[Willie Hawkes]

I should point out a fundamental flaw here.

It seems that people are trying to tell a story here. This is fine, but it should be secondary to gameplay.

We need to decide upon a basic gameplay mechanic, and then build a game around it. Make a fundamentally fun game, then you can work on building the world. Otherwise, we will be working on making this "Super awesome" game, but keep ending up adding more and more features until the project is incomplete-able. I think we should ask ourselves some questions:

-What engine do we use? We can use Flixel, which is an actionscript-based game engine. I just discovered this today, but I would be willing to learn it.( http://www.flixel.org/index.html ) How do we structure the game architecture? What other languages will be involved? Is this game going to be multiplayer? Where are we going to get server space?(Expensive!) A programming team should answer this.

-What is the game centered around? Commerce? Adventure? How could we make gameplay reflect this? What is the biggest mechanic in the game?( IE, what will the player mostly be doing?)

-Character creation? Do we want a class based system, or do we want a more powerful system? How deep does the character's story go? Do we leave their story/race to the imagination? What about avatar creation? Do we do something like Gaia online, or do we let the players select an avatar from a list?

-Do we really want an attribute system? If so, do we want several skills that allow the players to diversify, or do we want 2 or 3 skills that influence the playstyle of the individual player? How does this play into every other mechanic? Is it balanced? Can a player focus on any single attribute and still be useful? Do the attributes depend upon what class the player has? (Guild Wars), or do we have a couple primary skills and several secondary skills?(World of Warcraft, not recommended because everyone else is copying WoW. =P) How can we make this system different from EVERY OTHER game that uses Attributes? Are they subtle? Do they drastically decide what the player can do?

-What about an ability system? A player can purchase "modules" that give them a slightly helpful boost and are customizable to the individuals play-style?(Bioshock, Crysis 2)

-How does they player get around? How does the player move from one wall of text to another? Airship? "/join" map travel? A graphical map with "nodes" on it that allow map travel?

-How does combat work? How is the weapon system structured? How does a player escape? Does a skill increase chances of escape? What are the consequences of death?

-What about dungeons? How would a person join a dungeon? How would dungeons work?

-Party system? Could a player "hire" NPC's to come along with them for dungeons or difficult areas? Should a sidekick system be in place?

-Class system - How will each class be structured, if a class system is implemented?

...and about 50 other questions that need to be answered. As you can see, Building a MUD, or any game, for that matter, takes a LOT of technical planning. Until the technical aspects have been answered, any storyline that has been written is irrelevant. If it helps, making a game exactly like any other game and slapping a different story on it will not make this project a success. However, having a rather unoriginal story and putting that into a game with very original and unique gameplay, and you will have something different to offer.

I'll try to answer these questions with a game design that I have, and post it here to give people ideas. It will probably be a week before I have anything solid.

[karftw]

Hello,

This is exciting! I've been wanting to work on a steampunk MU* for some time, but it's too big a job for one person (I tried). If you're dedicated to finishing this project, I'd love to help out.

I'm a programmer - mainly Python and Java. I've written a couple of systems for a MUD project before - skills, combat and weather - and I'm pretty familiar with networking.

Let me know if you're interested. I'm not much of a forumite, but I've got this thread set up to send me e-mail notifications.

[Duellist]

I should point out a fundamental flaw here.

Er...  Try reading the rest of the thread; we are talking about a MUSH / MUD here. 

[Willie Hawkes]

Hmmm...? Oh... Sorry, I was a bit sleepy when I checked this thread last.

However, much of my post still stands.

EDIT: To make this post much more helpful, I was originally referring to the story telling thread; We really shouldn't start on the story until the game is actually working. A working prototype shows our limitations, and tells us what we can actually do with the story. That is what I really meant.

[Lothar Erfinder]

I agree that knowing what we can code will be of paramount importance for the development of the mechanics, but I don't think we should abandon the story telling thread. For me it's an exercise in setting anyway, and not story. Isn't the point of something like this that the player writes their own story? We don't need a plot; just an interesting world for players to run around in, and the story telling thread is a way of fleshing that out.

[NazT]

I agree that knowing what we can code will be of paramount importance for the development of the mechanics, but I don't think we should abandon the story telling thread. For me it's an exercise in setting anyway, and not story. Isn't the point of something like this that the player writes their own story? We don't need a plot; just an interesting world for players to run around in, and the story telling thread is a way of fleshing that out.

I agree. I find that if a project becomes too complex early on then it tends to never get done. Make it simple and complexities can be "bolted" on later.

[Lothar Erfinder]

I agree that knowing what we can code will be of paramount importance for the development of the mechanics, but I don't think we should abandon the story telling thread. For me it's an exercise in setting anyway, and not story. Isn't the point of something like this that the player writes their own story? We don't need a plot; just an interesting world for players to run around in, and the story telling thread is a way of fleshing that out.

I agree. I find that if a project becomes too complex early on then it tends to never get done. Make it simple and complexities can be "bolted" on later.

Right! We don't necessarily need to throw out any ideas, but we should definitely pick a core to focus on and then table the rest for implementation at a later date.

I think that what we need at this point is a master list of the ideas we've had so far, and another of the people who've offered to help and in what capacity. I feel like we have an abundance of writers and a dearth of programmers, but until we have that list I can't know for sure. I have school in ten minutes, but if no one else has done it by the time I get back, I can write those lists up and post them.

[Lothar Erfinder]

Okay, so.

Personnel:
Maize- Direction, Administration
Augustus Longeye- Lore writing, possible server space for a discussion website
Willie Hawkes- Design
Duellist- Writing
Lothar Erfinder- Writing
Cer0- Maybe coding
Karftw- Coding, Java & Python
Miss Tabitha- Writing was offered but it's been a while since we've seen her.
Xanthra- Likewise, only with coding.
Khem Caigan- Has been as unto a God of Reference Material, but hasn't actually offered to help, as far as I'm aware.

Various others have posted with ideas, but I don't think I've missed anyone offering labour.

The second list will be more complicated and will have to wait until after homework. It may or may not be done tonight, but shouldn't be ready any later than tomorrow evening.