A Collective Thread for All Them Guns Pt. II

[akumabito]

Just running with Otto's idea here.. I've never handeled a Remington revolver, so I am not entirely sure if this concept would foul any bits inside the frame.. I'm also not sure how well the frame of the gun lends itself to this type of modification.. what I do know however, is that it works beautifully in my mind.. Plus, there are no external clues to the modifications really.. Perhaps even the functionality of the loading ram can be maintained.. that would be awesome!

[Bill Akins]

Hang on a sec.. Aren't we needlessly overcomplicating things? On a SA revolver, the cylinder is advanced by cocking the hammer manually, right? If you use a gas piston to do this job automatically, you wouldn't need any additional mofe of advancing the cylinder, right? Or am I now missing something obvious why this would not wotk?

Akumabito, you and the other fellas here are as good in your concept ideas as anyone else on a forum exclusively dedicated to firearms. You fellas are good! Again you nailed the obvious conclusion, and one that I considered early on. And one that MAY work, but I fear may have problems in operation due to violent abrupt stresses on the cylinder pawl. Here's what I mean....

Early on in my concept for a semi-auto muzzleloading, percussion cap fired revolver, I considered just drilling out the holes in the nipples for the percussion caps so that more gas force came through the nipple hole, blowing the spent cap off the nipple against the face of the hammer and causing the hammer to re-cock. I had noticed in the past that when I loaded maximum powder charges in one of my muzzleloading revolvers that on several occasions after firing I noticed that my hammer had been forced by the heavy charge blowing the cap back against the hammer which forced the hammer to the HALF cock position. Which of course made me consider using enlarged nipple holes for more gas to expel more force against the cap to cock the hammer fully instead of just halfway.

And as you astutely diagnosed, cocking the hammer SHOULD also engage the cylinder pawl for turning the cylinder as it would in normally manually cocking the hammer by your thumb. And I will try that first in my experimentation's when I get an old beater 1858 Remington revolver to experiment on. But here is what I fear I may run into by cocking the hammer so rapidly and violently and abruptly using either a gas piston or direct cap blowback.....WITHOUT some sort of delay to either the cap blowback or piston rearward travel......

Two issues of problems.
1. With either direct cap blowback to cock the hammer or direct movement of a piston to cock the hammer, WITHOUT some sort of delay slowing down the hammer while it cocks, that is going to put an incredible amount of stress upon the cylinder pawl and ratchet the pawl engages on the cylinder rear face....and likely either break the small thin cylinder pawl, or round off the ratchet on the cylinder's rear. That is such an abrupt and rapid movement that I believe it will cause galling and or breaking of the pawl and or cylinder ratchet. But....it is possible that it MAY work in spite of my fears and only experimentation and trying it will see.

2. With such a rapid, non delayed cocking of the hammer causing the cylinder to rotate so abruptly, the cylinder may rotate so rapidly (if the delicate cylinder pawl doesn't break first) that the rotation may be so rapid that before the bolt locking into the cylinder slots has a chance to drop into the bolt cutouts on the cylinder, that the cylinder may over rotate with such speed that it rotates faster than the bolt can drop into place locking the cylinder in place for proper alignment of the chamber to the barrel.
Sometimes that over rotation travel can happen with a worn cylinder stop bolt anyway even in just normal manual hand cocking of the hammer. 

So although I would try that method first, I have been conceptualizing how to retard or slow down either the cocking of the hammer or rotation of the cylinder. The same problem firearm designers have with too abrupt a blowback or recoil so that they build in and utilize what is known as either "retarded blowback or recoil", also known as "delayed blowback or recoil".

The delaying of the abrupt movement of the cylinder to the rear and cocking of the hammer was done on the Webley Fosbery by utilizing zig zag slots that would slow down the rearward movement of the cylinder due to friction of the lug against the zig zag slots. That's one way of delaying recoil/blowback. The other way I was thinking about  to delay the arbor pin/piston from such a rapid abrupt rearward movement on Otto's suggestion, was to make the pin/piston ride in a spiral groove to slow its rearward movement down.

See what I mean? By slowing down either direct blowback or recoil, you lessen the stress and forces that can otherwise break parts.

But you are absolutely correct that the cocking of the hammer normally, i.e. manually would cause the cylinder to rotate. The problem is that when it is done with direct blowback or recoil forces, those forces are multiplied many times what your manually hand cocked force would be and thus need to be slowed down to prevent galling of the metal, undue wear, or breakage of parts.

Take the Steyr hahn model 1912 semi-auto pistol. It has big angled lugs on its barrel that engage corresponding angled slots on its slide. Which causes a frictional delay when the barrel recoils making the Steyr hahn a delayed blowback semi-auto pistol rather than a locked barrel pistol such as the semi-auto Colt model 1911 pistol. Without that delay in blowback, the Steyr hahn using a very powerful cartridge, would not be able to operate correctly. The only time a direct blowback pistol works is either by using a very low power cartridge, or having a very heavy recoil spring to slow down the rearward movement of the slide. Then the cartridge can simply blow back against the bolt face causing the system to operate. That works pretty good on a linear slide movement semi-auto cartridge pistol. I don't believe it would work as well against the delicate cylinder pawl of a muzzleloading revolver.
Still, I will try drilling out the holes in the percussion cap nipples first, trying direct spent cap and gas blowback against the hammer to see if that breaks anything or has undue wear on parts or causes cylinder over travel like I believe it will. If that doesn't work like I fear it won't, then I will also know that directly using a gas piston on the hammer without delaying the rearward movement of that piston would also not work. Then I have to go back to a method of delaying the system to slow it down.

Understand what I mean akumabito?


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[Bill Akins]

Just running with Otto's idea here.. I've never handeled a Remington revolver, so I am not entirely sure if this concept would foul any bits inside the frame.. I'm also not sure how well the frame of the gun lends itself to this type of modification.. what I do know however, is that it works beautifully in my mind.. Plus, there are no external clues to the modifications really.. Perhaps even the functionality of the loading ram can be maintained.. that would be awesome!

Nice rendering Akumabito. I notice that you are utilizing a short stroke piston like the M1 carbine, that works by its force pushing
the hammer (but not staying in contact all the way with the hammer til it's cocked), and then the inertia of that force takes the hammer back all the way to full cock even without the piston staying in contact with the hammer all the way. Whereas a long stroke piston would naturally be longer and would stay in contact with the hammer all the way back.

After looking at your rendering, I got my 1858 stainless Remington out tonight and was comparing it to your's and Otto's renderings. There are several concerns I can see in both yours and Otto's renderings.

 In the location you showed of the drilled out gas port, it is difficult to do that there. If I took out the rammer and its retaining screw and then removed the arbor pin, I could drill through the bottom of the arbor pin hole and into the bottom of the barrel. But the problem is, then I would have a hole drilled in the bottom of what you showed as the gas chamber. Because to get past the gas cylinder to drill into the barrel, you have to drill through the bottom of the gas cylinder too. I suppose that hole could be threaded and plugged with a screw perhaps or even welded over. Not impossible, but not easy.

But the other problem is that in your rendering you show the front of what would become the gas cylinder as being closed.
It is not. It is open on both ends. When you drop the rammer, then you grab the forward lugs of the arbor pin and pull it forward to remove the cylinder. So that front area of the arbor pin hole in the front of the frame (which would become the gas cylinder) cannot be plugged unless you mill the lugs off the arbor pin, shorten the arbor pin considerably so you cannot see it outside of the frame, and then tap threads for a plug in the hole in the front of the frame where you used to grab the lugs to pull the arbor pin out. It can be done, but it requires a bit more modification than you envisioned. You would also have to unscrew the plug in the hole in the front of the frame in order to pull the arbor pin/gas piston out to be able to remove the cylinder. But of course in Otto's rendering you would have to do that too.

But the basic concept of both Otto's and your renderings are still very good. Actually in your rendering Akumabito, although quite a bit of modification would have to be done, the rammer could still be retained and used. Whereas in Otto's rendering, not as much modification has to be done to the revolver, but the rammer has to be omitted. Still, both ideas have good merit.

I did a little photoshop work to show you and Otto some concerns I had on both renderings.

Akumabito's rendering....



But your expanding on Otto's concept is pretty good nonetheless. Otto's moves the gas cylinder out in front of the frame, but
that makes the rammer have to be cutout and that would make it too thin and weak to use. I'm looking at the revolver right now and if the gas cylinder was forward of the frame, the rammer would have to be completely removed and the cylinder loaded by an off the gun loading press. (Which would not be a problem). But Otto's version doesn't require as much modification actually as your does akumabito. Both have good points and some detractions, but both are still great concepts and I thank you both for them. I will be keeping them both in mind when I get an old beater '58 Remington to experiment on. Keep those ideas coming!

Otto's rendering.....




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[akumabito]

Another idea then: What if you route the gas not through the frame, but over the top, affixing a cylinder assembly on the top strap, pushing the hammer back when a round is fired.. I got this idea by going over an older thread you might find interesting: http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30106.0.html <-- A self-ejecting Colt Peacemaker prototype. The modification is pretty much external and fully reversible (aside from the loading gate adjustment). You could use a similar idea to cock the hammer: a collar up front catching the gases, redirecting it through a tube over the barrel, to a cylinder assembly on the top strap. You might need a different (taller) hammer for this to work though. Aside from that, you'll only need very minor modifications..

A problem with black powder guns would be fouling from residue though.. don't know how much of an issue it is, buit I'm pretty sure it will need frequent cleaning

[akumabito]

..how's this solution?

Just added the gas tube off an AK type rifle to the top of the revolver. Add a spring loaded piston in there that acts on a modified hammer and you're set.. just a thought though; you'll need to have something to keep the hammer in cocked position.. as it is, the hammer will just fall forward, releasing the next round, cycling the whole thing again.. it would be like fanning the gun super fast..

[Sir Nikolas Vendigroth]

Looks a lot like the Mateba model 6 

Gentlemen, for your attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley_Fosbery

[akumabito]

Looks a lot like the Mateba model 6 

Only way sexier because it's based on a 19th century revolver..

Gentlemen, for your attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley_Fosbery

The WF has been mentioned before, but this discussion is about replicating the self-loading action as simply and effectively as possible on an existing revolver..

[Sir Nikolas Vendigroth]

Of course, if I'd read the thread instead of jumping in, I'd have known that and saved myself the embarassment of rehashing it. Derp.  

[akumabito]

 

[Bill Akins]

..how's this solution?

Just added the gas tube off an AK type rifle to the top of the revolver. Add a spring loaded piston in there that acts on a modified hammer and you're set.. just a thought though; you'll need to have something to keep the hammer in cocked position.. as it is, the hammer will just fall forward, releasing the next round, cycling the whole thing again.. it would be like fanning the gun super fast..

An "AK" 1858 Remington! I see that you plan to attach the gas tube to the muzzle of the barrel.
But how are you attaching the rear of the gas tube? What holds the rear of the gas tube in place on the top rear of the receiver? Yes, some lockwork modification would have to be done so that the hammer stays back even though you still have the trigger depressed. Then upon releasing the trigger, the trigger would reset so that the next time you functioned it, it would drop the hammer.


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[akumabito]

I think the best way would be to attach the gas tube with some kind of clamp.Just welding it on would probably be easier, but then it would be non-removable..

[Bill Akins]

I just don't know Akumabito. But I think a Kalashnikov "AK" gas cylinder action on a muzzleloading 1858 Remington,
might be a bit too much, too bulky and too modern looking, even if it would work.
I actually like your earlier idea of the gas tube incorporated into the frame better.
With a little tweaking, that one has definite possibilities I think.

There are several concerns I have about getting the design correct.

We know what "slow initial extraction" means concerning a cartridge right?
That's where the weapon allows for a delay after firing before the cartridge is extracted from the chamber.
Otherwise the rim of the cartridge gets ripped off.

Well the same is true for operating some semi-automatics. Now with a low powered cartridge
in a modern semi-auto pistol, its operation allows for the spent case to just literally blow to the rear, overcoming
the resistance of the recoil spring in the slide and upon the empty case hitting the ejector, it ejects from the weapon.
But that's only on low powered cartridges like a .22lr, .32 or .380 calibers.

For 9x19mm parabellum cartridges and larger, they are too powerful for that kind of operation. (Just like the
1858 black powder, muzzleloading, Remington revolver would be too powerful for simple straight blowback operation).

So they have to have resistance to the action to slow the operation of the weapon down. One way to do that is known as
"delayed blowback". That is where the operation of the weapon is slowed down to where the pressure inside
the cartridge case drops before the extractor claw draws it out of the chamber. Another reason for delaying
the operation of the weapon, is so its operation is not so violently abrupt and violent that it breaks or causes
undue wear on the metal parts of the weapon. And that is my chief concern in this semi-auto muzzleloading
revolver design concept.

Akumabito, in examining your first rendering with the internal frame gas cylinder, I am concerned about the piston
pushing the hammer back not necessarily with too much force, (that could be adjusted with the powder load used) my main concern is with the abrupt speed of the operation. I am afraid of several things due to that operating speed unless it can be slowed down. Again, it's not the force I'm concerned with, it's the SPEED.

1. I'm afraid that the thin, relatively delicate cylinder pawl, that is attached to the hammer and that rotates the cylinder, may not be able to operate at that high a speed without breaking it or galling its end as well as galling the ratchet on the rear of the cylinder as well. It was designed to be manually operated at a slow manual speed.

2. I'm afraid of cylinder over travel. Cylinder over travel occurs when either the bolt that locks into the cylinder's slots to hold
it in place gets worn down or.....the cylinder is rotated so very fast that the cylinder's slot passes by the bolt before the bolt
can drop to lock into the slot. Which I am afraid might happen if the operation is too fast. In that case, after the first shot, the
next chamber would rotate past the barrel before the bolt could drop. Not only causing you to miss aligning the chamber with the
barrel, but also causing you to put a score mark ring around your cylinder when the bolt dropped too late to lock the cylinder.

3. I'm afraid that if the end of the gas piston that is enlarged to hold the return spring in your concept (or the elongated firing pin tappet in my zig zag concept),....were to break, that either the gas piston or the elongated firing pin could fly out rearward, deflecting off the hammer, and possibly strike the face or eyes. At the same time of thinking of an operating system, I have to keep safety in mind too.

I have given all this a lot of thought and research and that is why I came up with the Webley Fosbery recoiling cylinder type of
system to modify the 1858 muzzleloading Remington revolver to semi-auto. Because as the cylinder recoils and its angled slots engage a stationary lug, that creates a frictional delay before the cylinder pushes back on a spring loaded extended firing pin. Which means less speed is imparted to cocking the hammer. It all happens in a nano second, and you cannot see or feel
the delay, but it is there and it is important. The advantages of that system is that the weight of the cylinder plus the frictional
interfacing of the angled slots on the stationary lug, plus the rebound spring on the firing pin tappet, all serve to delay the operation.

However: all that said, it still may be possible that given a strong gas piston spring, along with the tension of the hammer spring, along with the weight of the hammer (in your original internal to the frame gas cylinder concept), that may be enough
resistance to effect enough delay for the parts to not break, the cylinder to not over travel and the system safely work.

There simply is no way to tell without building it and experimenting with it. Remotely firing it with a lanyard cord just for safety
before getting face and eyes behind it.

Your idea of using the hole in the frame that expanded upon Otto's original idea of using the arbor pin as a gas piston
has a lot of merit. Your internal to the frame gas cylinder idea would definitely be simpler to build than my zig zag slotted Webley Fosbery cylinder system and would allow the rammer to still be used for loading. The only outwardly seen modification would be the removal of the arbor pin lugs.

I think the very first experiment I will try is to get some extra nipples and drill them out to a larger touch hold diameter to allow more gas to pass out the rear of the nipples, which would blow the spent cap off the nipple, which would push the hammer back,
hopefully operating the system and we will see if that is too fast a speed and if any problems develop. Then if that doesn't work,
I will know that a cap directly blowing back against the hammer is too rapid and violent an action for the system to operate properly.

In that case my next experiment would be to make your internal to the frame gas cylinder and try that using a strong return spring on the gas piston to hopefully slow the action down. At least any mods I would do would be mostly inside the revolver and not able to be seen. Then if that didn't work, those mods I did to try your system would not interfere with me using the same revolver to build my zig zag recoiling cylinder system on. Except I would have to put a plug in the barrel where I drilled the gas tap hole in trying your concept.

So as soon as I get an old beater 1858 Remington repro, that's what I'm going to do.



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[akumabito]

I have an idea brewing to delay and cushion the blowback on a gas-tube style system (the AK-1858 model, if you like) It is actually very simple and would fit nicely into the gas tube. I'm afraid it would be slightly too bulky for the in-frama pproach.. Or maybe it wouldn't, it would just need some quite small but strong springs, really.. The idea is to simply add a shock absorber to the piston that takes the initial punch - spring compresses, then it transfers power to the rest of the cylinder which in turn acts on the hammer.

Here's a quick and dirty diagram:

[SteamLove.com]

Going to start modding my first Nerf guns! I have made a few guns already but everything was from scratch. I am using two Nerf Mavericks for this transformation.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

www.SteamLove.com

[Bill Akins]

I have an idea brewing to delay and cushion the blowback on a gas-tube style system (the AK-1858 model, if you like) It is actually very simple and would fit nicely into the gas tube. I'm afraid it would be slightly too bulky for the in-frama pproach.. Or maybe it wouldn't, it would just need some quite small but strong springs, really.. The idea is to simply add a shock absorber to the piston that takes the initial punch - spring compresses, then it transfers power to the rest of the cylinder which in turn acts on the hammer.

Here's a quick and dirty diagram:

Great idea Akumabito! Glad to see you at the other forum. We can continue the discussion there as I don't want to monopolize this thread. If anyone else would like to check that out too, here's the link....
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460489


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[Professor Bevel]

Not entirely sure if this is the right thread for it, but this is m'first foray into gunsmithing, of a sort.  A bosonic disruptor pistol (carbine, when I get the folding stock made), it projects an aetheric turbulence that disrupts the Higgs field in all baryonic matter in its path, with an under-barrel antenna to detect disruption of significant solid mass and cut out the primary ignitor circuit (in the upper receiver to the top rear of the weapon) before it starts the entire planet on a destructive chain reaction of mass-energy conversion.  No ferrous parts, no sparks, so entirely safe to use aboard zeppelins.

In operation, one thumbs the primary coil warmer circuit (the red button on the back of the receiver) causing a glow of excitation in the collimation fluid reservoir (forward of the receiver between the posterior and anterior focussing assemblies.  A smart pull of the trigger creates an aetheric cascade in the primary ignition coil.

For when you absolutely, positively have to disintegrate every last cad and bounder in the room.  Accept no substitute.  Don't point it at Daddy.



(IRL: the interior works are a hacked-about flash circuit from a disposable camera, with the 'charged' LED replaced with a UV LED to make the UV fluid - mixed brush cleaner and glowstick dye - light up, and an extra battery to match the UV LED's forward voltage requirement and give us a bit more OMINOUS WHIIIIIIIIIINE as it charges up.  I've taken the UV filter off the xenon flash tube so the liquid really flares when you pull the trigger.  The rest of it is scraps and leftovers I found in odd corners of the workshop.)

[D.Oakes]

Not entirely sure if this is the right thread for it, but this is m'first foray into gunsmithing, of a sort.  A bosonic disruptor pistol (carbine, when I get the folding stock made), it projects an aetheric turbulence that disrupts the Higgs field in all baryonic matter in its path, with an under-barrel antenna to detect disruption of significant solid mass and cut out the primary ignitor circuit (in the upper receiver to the top rear of the weapon) before it starts the entire planet on a destructive chain reaction of mass-energy conversion.  No ferrous parts, no sparks, so entirely safe to use aboard zeppelins.

In operation, one thumbs the primary coil warmer circuit (the red button on the back of the receiver) causing a glow of excitation in the collimation fluid reservoir (forward of the receiver between the posterior and anterior focussing assemblies.  A smart pull of the trigger creates an aetheric cascade in the primary ignition coil.

For when you absolutely, positively have to disintegrate every last cad and bounder in the room.  Accept no substitute.  Don't point it at Daddy.



(IRL: the interior works are a hacked-about flash circuit from a disposable camera, with the 'charged' LED replaced with a UV LED to make the UV fluid - mixed brush cleaner and glowstick dye - light up, and an extra battery to match the UV LED's forward voltage requirement and give us a bit more OMINOUS WHIIIIIIIIIINE as it charges up.  I've taken the UV filter off the xenon flash tube so the liquid really flares when you pull the trigger.  The rest of it is scraps and leftovers I found in odd corners of the workshop.)

This is the thread for it.  (seems at the moment it is hijacked to discuss a WIP, which should be in separate thread *cough*)  Do you have more pictures?  I'm seeing things to critique and compliment, but I'm having a tough time seeing them perfectly at this angle.  A side view would be nice if you could.  

[Professor Bevel]

A view of the other side.  Still got a lot of workshop cack on it in this photo, and once I've rested my brain from the first fury of tinkering I'll go over and add some decoration and tidy up the rough spots.

[D.Oakes]

It that case, you have already taken away my criticism.  I like it.  It looks a lot different than a lot of the blasters and ray guns out there.  I can't wait to see it with a stock any plans specifically on what it is going to look like? 

[Professor Bevel]

A short folding stock on brass stays to either side of the rear receiver.  Not sure if it's going to fold above or below yet, but something like the folding stock on later models of the german MP40.

[D.Oakes]

A short folding stock on brass stays to either side of the rear receiver.  Not sure if it's going to fold above or below yet, but something like the folding stock on later models of the german MP40.

Have you looked at some of the early folding stocks that mimicked a fixed stock?  The grip looks bulky enough that a typical skeleton folder would seem like an understatement.  Many of them were side folders or utilized rather unique systems. 

[Professor Bevel]

Yes, and I never liked them generally, and rejected the idea specifically because the receiver is so wide relative to the barrel and forward furniture - a side folder would either have to be very complex or end up hanging out the side of the weapon, making it hard to holster.  I'm thinking in the general direction of a pair of brass cabinet stays like the one I've used to support the top receiver cover that can either lock out to the rear or swing under and place the butt-plate (which I have a nice piece of sapele picked out for) under the barrel as a foregrip under the sensor antenna.

Meantime, I've been asked to do a ladies' garter-gun variant, so if you'll excuse me, I've some brazing to do!

[D.Oakes]

Yes, and I never liked them generally, and rejected the idea specifically because the receiver is so wide relative to the barrel and forward furniture - a side folder would either have to be very complex or end up hanging out the side of the weapon, making it hard to holster.  I'm thinking in the general direction of a pair of brass cabinet stays like the one I've used to support the top receiver cover that can either lock out to the rear or swing under and place the butt-plate (which I have a nice piece of sapele picked out for) under the barrel as a foregrip under the sensor antenna.

Meantime, I've been asked to do a ladies' garter-gun variant, so if you'll excuse me, I've some brazing to do!

You could take the route of the broomhandle and make the holster the stock.  It would keep the look right as well as give you a place for both items.  A simple 2 point wing nut set up would be pretty easy to accomplish or even figure out a latching system. 

Can't wait to see the next one.   

[Professor Bevel]

Might give that a shot with the next one.  Chaps at the Haberdash reckon there's some call for rifles and carbines, so I might turn the withering searchlight of my mighty intellect in that direction next.

[Bill Akins]

D Oakes wrote:
This is the thread for it.  (seems at the moment it is hijacked to discuss a WIP, which should be in separate thread *cough*)

Not a weapon in progress (WIP), but a weapon concept discussion in progress.
Sorry, my mistake, I thought this thread was "A collective thread for all them guns". *cough*
What "separate" thread category would you suggest I post regarding a gun in next time other than the one listed as "a collective thread for all them guns"?

Your above quoted post came immediately after I had already posted to tell Akumabito that he and I could continue the discussion
at another forum and I stated that.... I DIDN'T WANT TO MONOPOLIZE THIS THREAD despite the fact that the subject matter was pertinent to this thread.
Sorry you missed reading my last post. No problem though ole chap. We all can be guilty of a faux pas/gaffe mistake once in a while....eh wot?  Tip 'o the stovepipe steam hat  


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