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Author Topic: A Collective Thread for All Them Guns Pt. II  (Read 301380 times)
SpaceClown
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It's not stupid, it's ADVANCED!


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« Reply #225 on: September 08, 2011, 02:54:30 pm »

Excellent Job elvisroe!  It looks great and get a +100 for retained functionality.  Awesome!

SC
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There is no problem in the world that cannot be overcome with the suitable application of high explosives.

First Build: http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31253.0.html
Second One: http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,38856.0.html
PapaPunk
Gunner
**
United States United States


« Reply #226 on: September 08, 2011, 07:03:57 pm »

Hey all,
I had a bit of time up my sleeve yesterday and managed to complete a little project I've been thinking about for a while...

Presenting Dr. Gunn's Fabulous Pocket Dragon!!! 

"You'll never miss again with this fire-breathing Dragon in your pocket"





Essentially it's a confetti 6 shooter with a fluted barrel, wood grip and a paintjob.
Still shoots well, blasting clouds of paper confetti with every shot - looks great with smoke streaming from the barrel too!
The idea was to make a sidearm to use at kids parties as part of my work-in-progress steampunk pirate facepainting costume.

My daughter loves it and wants a pink sparkle one for herself!



Nice, It does noe look like plastic at all! and the weathering on the handle is spot on.
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Bill Akins
Deck Hand
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United States United States



« Reply #227 on: September 08, 2011, 11:24:57 pm »

It's nice to see a dedicated thread just for steampunk style firearms here.
Good idea. This way if someone doesn't like real firearms, they just avoid this
thread with no ensuing arguments. Kudos to admin for creating this dedicated thread.

I've built steampunk looking real firearms previously as this kit I've created to turn a standard
Ruger 10/22 into a CRANKFIRED gun (Like an antique Gatling gun) below that in
just a few seconds converts from an air cooled version to a truly water cooled
version. Sorry but the kit is not ready for market yet. I'm still fiddling with my third prototype,
but everything on it is working just fine, just building the various interchangeable sights and not
quite finished with them yet.....





















But I've got some design concepts in mind for turning antique, non classified as firearms
under the U.S. Federal National Firearms Act (N.F.A.), MUZZLELOADING antique weapons into
either semi-automatic or even fully automatic.
By being MUZZLELOADING they are NOT classified under Federal law as "FIREARMS".
They are totally unregulated under U.S. Federal law. Most state laws mirror Federal law, and only a
small handful of states are more restrictive on muzzleloading weapons than Federal law is.
So one still has to check their specific state law as to the legality of building or owning any
of my semi-auto or full auto muzzleloading concepts. But concerning U.S. Federal law since they
are muzzleloaders....they are okay.

Here's a concept of mine that uses the Webley Fosbery zig zag cylinder in a muzzleloading revolver
that would make that revolver semi-automatic. I used a Ruger Old Army frame for the mockup, but
can easily transfer the concept to an 1858 Remington frame. I am seeking an old beater 1858
Remington to test my design on. Here's my concept mockup pics.....

Next below two photos are my concept for a semi-auto MUZZLELOADING revolver. I think Jules Verne's Captain Nemo would love it.
A "Hellboy" character set in Victorian times would like it too. Only his would have to be scaled up
to .68 caliber and fire explosive projectiles Grin. But seriously....that could be done.
 
In my concept the cylinder would recoil rearward while a fixed lug on the frame followed the zig zag slots.
Which upon the cylinder recoiling rearward would turn the cylinder halfway to the next chamber and cause the hammer to recock.
Then as the recoil spring decompresses and pushes the cylinder back forward again, the fixed lug on the frame following the zig zag
slots would finish turning the cylinder the other half way so that the next chamber is now in line with the barrel and ready to fire.
Just like the antique Webley Fosbery semi-automatic cartridge revolver works. Only this would not use cartridges and would be a muzzleloading weapon and as such classified as a NON firearm under U.S. federal law.

The internal lockwork would have to be slightly modified so that the hammer when it is re-cocked by the recoil forces,
would stay cocked until you released tension on the trigger (after the first shot) and then functioned it again.
Because as the revolver is without modification, if the trigger were held down, the hammer would not stay to the rear when
it was pushed back, but would follow the cylinder forward and that would either make it go full auto or else not work at all because
there might possibly not be enough force to pop the percussion cap. Since the muzzleloading revolver only has
six chambers in its cylinder, making it full auto wouldn't make much sense because the burst would be very short.
So although making it full auto is possible mechanically....I'd keep this six shot muzzleloading revolver concept semi-auto only and leave the full auto concept for the much higher possible shot capacity of my harmonica gun concept.



....and the same concept but with a longer frame and longer cylinder......


I also have some design concepts for a steampunk harmonica rifle that is based somewhat on the
Jonathan Browning harmonica rifles and also the Captain Nemo harmonica rifles seen in the
"Mysterious Island 2005" made for t.v. movie, as in these still pics I took from the movie.....

Firing the muzzleloading Captain Nemo harmonica rifle.


Turning the trigger guard/crank handle that supposedly advances the harmonica block to the next
muzzleloaded chamber for the next shot. But after watching the video clip I made of it multiple times, I
found that it did NOT advance the harmonica block to the next chamber when the crank was rotated.
Which makes me believe this was not a real operating harmonica rifle, but possibly a real but single shot
weapon made up to look like a repeating harmonica rifle. Or....it was a non firing movie prop and they put
the smoke and flash from it by using computer graphics. At any rate, whichever it is, the harmonica block
did NOT advance when he rotated that trigger/guard crank handle. And you can see that in the short video
in my link to the thread I wrote about this that I've included further down this post.


Side and from the front view of the Captain Nemo harmonica rifle. (I've studied these extensively as you
can see and read in my thread that I posted the link for further below).


Only I would make the harmonica block that includes
the chambers much longer so it holds a much higher capacity. Something like 100 muzzleloaded rounds
and I would mount it on a tripod. Remember, being a MUZZLELOADING weapon, it is exempt from
Federal regulation and could be made semi-automatic or fully automatic.
These are my latest crude renderings of my ideas on that.....

Gas operated, either semi-auto or full auto version. Similar to the Captain Nemo harmonica rifle, but my concept modified
to gas operation instead of being manually operated to advance the harmonica block like the movie gun SUPPOSEDLY did,
(but in reality did not).
I would use a linear rack gear on the full length of the harmonica block that was advanced by a round gear that was activated by the gas piston which is activated by gas tapped from the barrel into a cylinder that the piston rides in. The linear (straight) rack gear with the round gear turning it to advance the harmonica block to the next cylinder for the next shot, would be similar to a rack and pinion system on a car's steering. I would also use pyrodex plus p, which is a black powder substitute that does not foul and gum things up like standard black powder will. Also I would support the hi capacity harmonica block via a rolling conveyor system so it would not have undue cantilevered weight upon the receiver of the gun.
Remember....it's a muzzleloaded harmonica block, and so was the Captain Nemo harmonica block.



Same concept, only showing it manually crank fired (like a Gatling), and with no gas piston cylinder having to be on
the barrel by virtue of it being manually crank fired operated instead of gas operated, I can put a water jacket on it
for cooling the barrel.



I'm going to build the semi-auto muzzleloading revolver first, then work on building the tripod mounted
harmonica block fed gun after that.

If you are interested in these types of muzzleloading rapid fire weapons,
(being MUZZLELOADERS they are not classified as "Firearms" under U.S. Federal law and are thus exempt from Federal regulation)
you can read more about their history, my ideas, concepts and designs for making them semi-auto or full auto, at the below link to another thread I've written about them. Lots of pics there and even some short videos I captured and cropped from the "Mysterious Island 2005" movie showing how the Captain Nemo harmonica rifles advanced their harmonica block to the next chamber for firing. I did an extensive search and no still pictures nor anything about how these Captain Nemo movie harmonica rifles operated was available online....until I took the still photos of them and made a cropped video of them in operation, and figured out how they SUPPOSEDLY were supposed to work.
No one had ever done that before.
 
I'll post more when I get my design for the muzzleloading zig zag slots cylinder muzzleloading revolver built.
Here's that link to my thread on this. I think you'll enjoy reading it and learning about some Victorian rapid fire weapons and how my concepts can make them semi-auto or even full auto......

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460489

Hope you enjoy reading my above link.

.





« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 02:48:28 am by Bill Akins » Logged

Fleebnork
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United States United States


Pleh!


« Reply #228 on: September 08, 2011, 11:41:49 pm »

Very cool stuff. I look forward to seeing progress on the harmonica-feed gun.
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D. R. Gelinas
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United States United States


« Reply #229 on: September 09, 2011, 09:53:57 am »

To Bill Akins,
You might try building your 100 round harmonica as a ring. No change in balance and no conveyer needed.
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sanityattack
Zeppelin Captain
*****
Wales Wales



« Reply #230 on: September 09, 2011, 01:14:03 pm »

So I'm working on a Nerf version of an M4/M16/AR15 style rifle with suppressor. I just wanted some other opinions on whether the suppressor looks too long or should it maybe be further down the barrel?

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helios
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New Zealand New Zealand


Probably not Death, the Destroyer of Worlds

eliasvonhelios
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« Reply #231 on: September 09, 2011, 02:17:56 pm »

It's nice to see a dedicated thread just for steampunk style firearms here.
Good idea. This way if someone doesn't like real firearms, they just avoid this
thread with no ensuing arguments. Kudos to admin for creating this dedicated thread.

Nice stuff. However, I think it's worth mentioning that this isn't, as you put it, "a dedicated thread just for steampunk style firearms". This is a thread for steampunk guns. Whether these are actual firearms or props, so long as it's a build or a modification (or something of that ilk) they do belong here.
I only really mention this because this thread is home to far more prop guns than actual working firearms. As such, avoiding this thread because you don't like discussing "real" guns is not really an option for anyone with an interest in creating or simply looking at such things. Assuming this is a discussion thread for "real" guns will probably end simply in tears, especially given the somewhat stringent rules we do have against discussion of more modern firearms.
Also, this is nothing more than a friendly clearing up of a perceived misunderstanding. Your work is excellent, and I'd rather not see things go badly even in the slightest.
Keep it up!
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Otto Von Pifka
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United States United States


goggles? they're here somewhere.....


« Reply #232 on: September 09, 2011, 02:42:18 pm »

looks a little long to me. plus the fact its a little skinny so doesn't stand out as a suppressor. looking good though, off to a good start.

mr. Akins, beautiful job on that 10/22, it's almost too beautiful!

one concern I have on the semiauto pistol would be the other rounds unseating from the recoil and possible flashing over from the firing cylinder as the cylinder moves away from the barrel.

looking at my remington, what about the cylinder pin? it goes all the way through the frame and if you were to cut away some of the reloading lever, there could be room for a gas port feeding a ring with the rod in it so the rod acts like a piston. the front of the ring could have a screw in plug to seal it off and still let you unscrew it to remove the cylinder from the frame.
you may have to work on the front of the hammer base so the pin levers without jamming things up.

love your ideas for the harmonica gun!
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Sandpunk
Snr. Officer
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United States United States


Lo and behold, all bad things.


« Reply #233 on: September 10, 2011, 12:31:55 am »

Here's a before and after...




Aside from the trigger that's a spectacular mod.
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elvisroe
Officer
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Australia Australia


« Reply #234 on: September 10, 2011, 06:53:17 am »

Thanks for the feedback Grin the Dragon's been a real hit with the kids!

Yeah, I'm with you on the trigger Sandpunk.  I thought long and hard about that one.  It's got a very long heavy pull and extends a long way forward so I found that any guard I experimented with had to be so massive that it looked silly. 

I opted for more of a derringer "spur-trigger" look but baulked at altering the shape at the risk of making it too fragile.  Perhaps adding a spur into which the current trigger fits might help with the shape.

Perhaps I'll bite the bullet and give it another go - we'll see.
cr
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Otto Von Pifka
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goggles? they're here somewhere.....


« Reply #235 on: September 10, 2011, 07:30:20 am »

would it be too close to your hand if you simple drilled a big hole in it and used it like a trigger ring? the way the edges are raised, you might even be able to fill it in so it's thicker and stronger even with a big hole in it.

I would like to add that I like your mod so much I ordered a couple of the poppers for myself and I intend to blatantly steal your idea! I have a couple of variations banging around in my head.
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Dr. Madd
Zeppelin Captain
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United States United States


Maker of Monsters


« Reply #236 on: September 10, 2011, 09:00:56 am »

How about a belt fed pepperbox pistol?
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Bill Akins
Deck Hand
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United States United States



« Reply #237 on: September 10, 2011, 09:02:10 am »

To Bill Akins,
You might try building your 100 round harmonica as a ring. No change in balance and no conveyer needed.


Thanks for the interest, but here's the problem with that suggestion.
Notice the large cylinder on this Hall 15 shot revolving "ring" percussion rifle below.....



Here's a closeup of the same Hall revolving "ring" cylinder of that rifle. And it only held 15 shots.
Imagine how unmanageably huge and bulky the cylinder "ring" would be in order to hold 100 shots
on the outside perimeter of the ring.....



Hence my reason for using a straight harmonica block. A round cylinder ring would have to be
gigantic to hold 100 shots compared to a straight line harmonica block. Because there is so
much wasted space in the middle of the cylinder "ring", whereas with a straight line harmonica
block, there would be no wasted center space. See what I mean?



.
  
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D.Oakes
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United States United States



« Reply #238 on: September 10, 2011, 09:07:25 am »

A 100 round block would also be quite bulky and would have issues with wear considering there would be nothing supporting it other than the metal itself.  All metal stresses over time.  Similar problems were encountered with Hotchkiss guns fed by a clip.  The smaller clips were found to work best in the long run because larger ones had a tendency to break or bend and jam.  A smaller block would not be a bad idea especially if inserting a new one was an easy/fast process. 
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Bill Akins
Deck Hand
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United States United States



« Reply #239 on: September 10, 2011, 09:26:22 am »

mr. Akins, beautiful job on that 10/22, it's almost too beautiful!

one concern I have on the semiauto pistol would be the other rounds unseating from the recoil and possible flashing over from the firing cylinder as the cylinder moves away from the barrel.

Thanks, glad you liked my 10/22 mod.

Excellent point on the projectiles possibly unseating due to the cylinder recoiling on my semi-auto percussion revolver concept. Although experimentation would be the only proof, there are several things in my favor. The Webley Fosbery's rounds did not move forward when its cylinder recoiled. Possibly because they had a heavy crimp on the cartridge mouth digging into the projectile, holding it in place securely. The question is, since my concept doesn't use a cartridge so I cannot rely on a case mouth crimp, would the frictional forces of the squeezing of the ball into the chamber where it shaves a ring of lead to tightly seat, be enough to keep the ball from going forward under cylinder recoil? Again, only experimentation would tell, but I think it might for these reasons. 1. There is a recoil spring behind the cylinder that would slow the recoil of the cylinder down. 2. The zig zag slots on the cylinder would have a lug following those slots. That frictional interface of the lug against the slots (that causes the cylinder to turn) would also help slow down the cylinder's recoil. In effect causing a delayed blowback operation of the cylinder recoiling and slowing the force of the cylinder recoiling down.

The possibility of a "flashing over" of flame over the other cylinders as the cylinder moved rearward from the breech and causing a chainfire, would be precluded by using a lubricated felt wad between the powder and the ball. Or by greasing over the balls with grease. Either way would preclude a chainfire. Most chainfires come from the rear of the cylinder due to ill fitting caps on the nipples anyway. Where the flame can go up the side of a loose fitting cap. The very tight fit of the ball from the rammer squeezing it in the chamber so tight that it shaves a ring of lead off the ball, makes the ball seal so well that even without a lubed felt wad under the ball or without grease over the ball, no flame can get past the ball to create a chainfire from the front of the cylinder.
However, that CAN happen if the ball is not perfectly round or flawed in some way when it was molded. That's why a lubed felt wad under the ball over the powder.....or grease over the top of the balls is recommended just to be safe. As with any muzzleloading revolver.   

looking at my remington, what about the cylinder pin? it goes all the way through the frame and if you were to cut away some of the reloading lever, there could be room for a gas port feeding a ring with the rod in it so the rod acts like a piston. the front of the ring could have a screw in plug to seal it off and still let you unscrew it to remove the cylinder from the frame.
you may have to work on the front of the hammer base so the pin levers without jamming things up.

Gosh, I'm trying but I'm just not tracking on what you're trying to tell me. Could you please elaborate a bit more or possibly scan a sketch to show me what you mean? It sounds very interesting and I would like to understand what you're trying to convey.

Love your ideas for the harmonica gun

Thanks, I do like that concept a lot. I'm actually surprised it wasn't utilized more back in muzzleloading days as I conceive its possibilities today. Perhaps because they didn't have the non fouling substitutes for black powder that we have today such as pyrodex plus P. If using standard black powder it can become very fouling and gum things up quickly. That could put the squelch on a black powder using, rapid fire harmonica gun like I envision. (It certainly hampered machine gun development until less fouling smokeless powder was invented.) But with the non fouling black powder substitutes that we have today, that isn't a problem anymore.


.



« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 09:53:10 am by Bill Akins » Logged
Bill Akins
Deck Hand
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United States United States



« Reply #240 on: September 10, 2011, 09:39:18 am »

A 100 round block would also be quite bulky and would have issues with wear considering there would be nothing supporting it other than the metal itself.  All metal stresses over time.  Similar problems were encountered with Hotchkiss guns fed by a clip.  The smaller clips were found to work best in the long run because larger ones had a tendency to break or bend and jam.  A smaller block would not be a bad idea especially if inserting a new one was an easy/fast process. 


Exactly. You hit the nail on the head D.Oakes. You are spot on about the Hotchkiss gun having a cantilevered weight problem with its long unsupported, cantilevered weight, ammunition trays. Which is why I conceived using a rolling pin conveyor system to support the weight of the harmonica block, as I showed in my earlier post of my photoshop concept of a tripod mounted harmonica block fed weapon. You also hit upon another point I considered that inserting a straight harmonica block as the other block exited the weapon, would be much easier than trying to remove a large cylinder ring and replace it with another cylinder ring.

Notice the droop of the ammunition tray in this museum Hotchkiss gun. Exactly as you pointed out.



That unsupported cantilevered ammunition tray weight puts stress not only on the tray but on the receiver of the Hotchkiss and its feed system as well. Not good. Which is why as you pointed out, the shorter trays worked better in the Hotchkiss.
But....with a long rolling pin conveyor on either side of my harmonica block, as I pictured again in my concept rendering below, the conveyor would hold the weight of the heavy harmonica block as it both fed and exited the weapon. Then no stress on the receiver, the feeding system or the harmonica block itself. Problem solved. A bit bulky, but that adds to it being steamy  Wink. The rendering is a bit crude but in reality the conveyor and the supports for the conveyor would be built very "Captain Nemoish" in style.





.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 10:23:08 am by Bill Akins » Logged
akumabito
Immortal
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Netherlands Netherlands


~~Blast from the past~~


« Reply #241 on: September 10, 2011, 10:04:04 am »

Hi Bill, great concept revolver! I'd really like to see something like that.. however, if the cylinder is meant to move backwards when fired, do you have a mechanism to lock it into place? Maybe just alide a bit of wood behind it or something? Loading would otherwise be problematic I think - that loading lever isn't going to do you much good when it just pushes the cylinder back..
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Bill Akins
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United States United States



« Reply #242 on: September 10, 2011, 10:21:30 am »

Hi Bill, great concept revolver! I'd really like to see something like that.. however, if the cylinder is meant to move backwards when fired, do you have a mechanism to lock it into place? Maybe just alide a bit of wood behind it or something? Loading would otherwise be problematic I think - that loading lever isn't going to do you much good when it just pushes the cylinder back..


Very astute! Yes that's exactly what I had in mind. A short piece of thick nylon or metal to go between the rear of the cylinder against the recoil shield on the frame to keep the cylinder forward when loading. I have four 1860 reproduction Colt black powder revolvers, one 1851 Colt reproduction model and one 1858 Remington reproduction model. But they are all too nice to experiment on. So I'm currently looking for an inexpensive kind of beat up 1858 Remington reproduction revolver to experiment on. I also plan to drill weight lightening holes in the rammer rib which won't decrease its strength and will add to the steamy look. Like the lightening holes in the hammer on my concept rendering below. Only the rammer on the 1858 Remington is a lot wider than on the Ruger Old Army rammer used in my rendering. So it will be easier to drill the holes in it. I'll easily be able to transfer my concept to the 1858 Remington since it and the Ruger Old Army are so similar in frame design.




.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 10:31:36 am by Bill Akins » Logged
Otto Von Pifka
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« Reply #243 on: September 10, 2011, 12:13:41 pm »



I didn't draw in the frame and the reloading lever. thinking about it, the lever could retain the plug in the front of the gas cylinder to simplify things.
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Bill Akins
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United States United States



« Reply #244 on: September 10, 2011, 01:05:24 pm »



I didn't draw in the frame and the reloading lever. thinking about it, the lever could retain the plug in the front of the gas cylinder to simplify things.


Ah! I see. You postulate using an elongated, modified, cylinder arbor pin to double as a gas piston to cock the hammer. Brilliant!
That is a great idea Otto. By making the arbor pin/gas piston spring loaded it would return back forward after cocking the hammer.

Now how could I utilize that piston to also rotate the cylinder without the cylinder having to have zig zag slots and recoil rearward?
Ah! I've got it. The arbor pin/gas piston could have spring loaded lug projections on it that would pivot backward but not forward. The hole in the cylinder for the arbor could have corresponding spiral slots cut into it so that the lugs on the arbor pin/gas piston, were just barely engaging the spiral slots in the central cylinder hole. Then when the gas piston went rearward to cock the hammer, it would also advance the cylinder. Then when the arbor pin/gas piston went back forward again due to its spring decompressing,  the lugs sticking out of the arbor would fold back and pass through the central hole of the cylinder. Obviating the need for a recoiling cylinder, and thus making a longer standard length cylinder possible since it doesn't need space to recoil. Hmmm, very interesting Otto. Kudos and thanks for that idea, that was sheer genius on your part. That possibility never occurred to me. I gave you proper credit for your idea also at the original forum where I have been first discussing these semi-auto muzzleloading concepts here.....
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4735969&postcount=71

Do you have any ideas for advancing the cylinder to the next chamber using that arbor pin/gas piston that might be better than the one I proposed with the one way folding lugs on the arbor pin engaging spiral slots in the cylinder's central arbor pin hole?
 

.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 01:51:53 pm by Bill Akins » Logged
Quentin The Various
Snr. Officer
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United Kingdom United Kingdom


« Reply #245 on: September 10, 2011, 05:34:25 pm »

Hello there Bill, this revolver idea of yours looks excellent and the suggestions also so.

I have had a thought about how to advance the cylinder without it having to recoil which could be simpler and more robust than the folding lugs one: if the zig zag cylinder groove were cut into the inside of the cylinder rather than the outside, fixed lugs on the cylinder pin could be used, sliding down the zig zag grooves and thereby advancing the cylinder.
It might also be worth you having a look at the nerf maverick's cylinder advancing mechanism, it uses a sliding lug on an extension of the trigger and a zig zag shape very similar to the one on the Webley Fosberry style revolver cylinder afixed to the cylinder to advance it into alignment when the trigger is pulled and then around again to leave the cylinder in the same position but one round further on.
Hope that helps and best of fortunes to you!

And to everyone else, the offerings here have been magnificent and an inspiration to my own projects and the discussion wonderful to read. Thank you all and keep up the good work.  Smiley

Q
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akumabito
Immortal
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Netherlands Netherlands


~~Blast from the past~~


« Reply #246 on: September 10, 2011, 06:04:06 pm »

Hang on a sec.. Aren't we needlessly overcomplicating things? On a SA revolver, the cylinder is advanced by cocking the hammer manually, right? If you use a gas piston to do this job automatically, you wouldn't need any additional mofe of advancing the cylinder, right? Or am I now missing something obvious why this would not wotk?
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Bill Akins
Deck Hand
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United States United States



« Reply #247 on: September 10, 2011, 09:28:05 pm »

Hello there Bill, this revolver idea of yours looks excellent and the suggestions also so.

I have had a thought about how to advance the cylinder without it having to recoil which could be simpler and more robust than the folding lugs one: if the zig zag cylinder groove were cut into the inside of the cylinder rather than the outside, fixed lugs on the cylinder pin could be used, sliding down the zig zag grooves and thereby advancing the cylinder.
It might also be worth you having a look at the nerf maverick's cylinder advancing mechanism, it uses a sliding lug on an extension of the trigger and a zig zag shape very similar to the one on the Webley Fosberry style revolver cylinder afixed to the cylinder to advance it into alignment when the trigger is pulled and then around again to leave the cylinder in the same position but one round further on.
Hope that helps and best of fortunes to you!

And to everyone else, the offerings here have been magnificent and an inspiration to my own projects and the discussion wonderful to read. Thank you all and keep up the good work.  Smiley

Q

That's a good suggestion when first thinking about it Quentin. Instead of just using a double lug spiral slot with folding lugs for the piston returning forwardly, you suggest using an internal set of zig zag slots inside the cylinder's central arbor pin hole. I only see one problem with that why that might not work well. The arbor pin hole in the 1858 Remington's cylinder is pretty small. Even if you enlarged it considerably you likely would run into the problem of not having a large enough diameter hole for large enough angles on the zig zag slots. You see the zig zag slots must have enough of an angle to their slots so that the lug does not bind up in too sharp of an angle of the slots. Spread out on the cylinder like the Webley Fosbery those angled slots work, but inside the confines of a say approx 1/4 inch hole's interior, the angles likely would be too sharp for the slots to not bind against the arbor pin. I don't think there is enough room there for the angle of the zig zag slots to be spread out enough to prevent binding. That's why I suggested a spiral slot inside the cylinder pin hole instead.....with folding lugs on the piston pin that ride that spiral turning the cylinder as the piston goes rearward with no binding problem, and then those lugs fold up to not ride the spiral as the pin goes back forward again. You see the long spiral slots would work in a small diameter hole while more angled zig zag slots made to fit a hole that small would have too sharp an angle and I believe would bind the lug up.  See what I mean Quentin? Still not a too bad of a concept at first thought Quentin. Thanks for the suggestion. I will ruminate upon it more to see if there is any way to make it work without the zig zag slots being too sharply at an angle and binding up on the piston lug.


 
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akumabito
Immortal
**
Netherlands Netherlands


~~Blast from the past~~


« Reply #248 on: September 10, 2011, 10:05:36 pm »

Just running with Otto's idea here.. I've never handeled a Remington revolver, so I am not entirely sure if this concept would foul any bits inside the frame.. I'm also not sure how well the frame of the gun lends itself to this type of modification.. what I do know however, is that it works beautifully in my mind.. Plus, there are no external clues to the modifications really.. Perhaps even the functionality of the loading ram can be maintained.. that would be awesome!

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Bill Akins
Deck Hand
*
United States United States



« Reply #249 on: September 10, 2011, 10:20:56 pm »

Hang on a sec.. Aren't we needlessly overcomplicating things? On a SA revolver, the cylinder is advanced by cocking the hammer manually, right? If you use a gas piston to do this job automatically, you wouldn't need any additional mofe of advancing the cylinder, right? Or am I now missing something obvious why this would not wotk?

Akumabito, you and the other fellas here are as good in your concept ideas as anyone else on a forum exclusively dedicated to firearms. You fellas are good! Again you nailed the obvious conclusion, and one that I considered early on. And one that MAY work, but I fear may have problems in operation due to violent abrupt stresses on the cylinder pawl. Here's what I mean....

Early on in my concept for a semi-auto muzzleloading, percussion cap fired revolver, I considered just drilling out the holes in the nipples for the percussion caps so that more gas force came through the nipple hole, blowing the spent cap off the nipple against the face of the hammer and causing the hammer to re-cock. I had noticed in the past that when I loaded maximum powder charges in one of my muzzleloading revolvers that on several occasions after firing I noticed that my hammer had been forced by the heavy charge blowing the cap back against the hammer which forced the hammer to the HALF cock position. Which of course made me consider using enlarged nipple holes for more gas to expel more force against the cap to cock the hammer fully instead of just halfway.

And as you astutely diagnosed, cocking the hammer SHOULD also engage the cylinder pawl for turning the cylinder as it would in normally manually cocking the hammer by your thumb. And I will try that first in my experimentation's when I get an old beater 1858 Remington revolver to experiment on. But here is what I fear I may run into by cocking the hammer so rapidly and violently and abruptly using either a gas piston or direct cap blowback.....WITHOUT some sort of delay to either the cap blowback or piston rearward travel......

Two issues of problems.
1. With either direct cap blowback to cock the hammer or direct movement of a piston to cock the hammer, WITHOUT some sort of delay slowing down the hammer while it cocks, that is going to put an incredible amount of stress upon the cylinder pawl and ratchet the pawl engages on the cylinder rear face....and likely either break the small thin cylinder pawl, or round off the ratchet on the cylinder's rear. That is such an abrupt and rapid movement that I believe it will cause galling and or breaking of the pawl and or cylinder ratchet. But....it is possible that it MAY work in spite of my fears and only experimentation and trying it will see.

2. With such a rapid, non delayed cocking of the hammer causing the cylinder to rotate so abruptly, the cylinder may rotate so rapidly (if the delicate cylinder pawl doesn't break first) that the rotation may be so rapid that before the bolt locking into the cylinder slots has a chance to drop into the bolt cutouts on the cylinder, that the cylinder may over rotate with such speed that it rotates faster than the bolt can drop into place locking the cylinder in place for proper alignment of the chamber to the barrel.
Sometimes that over rotation travel can happen with a worn cylinder stop bolt anyway even in just normal manual hand cocking of the hammer. 

So although I would try that method first, I have been conceptualizing how to retard or slow down either the cocking of the hammer or rotation of the cylinder. The same problem firearm designers have with too abrupt a blowback or recoil so that they build in and utilize what is known as either "retarded blowback or recoil", also known as "delayed blowback or recoil".

The delaying of the abrupt movement of the cylinder to the rear and cocking of the hammer was done on the Webley Fosbery by utilizing zig zag slots that would slow down the rearward movement of the cylinder due to friction of the lug against the zig zag slots. That's one way of delaying recoil/blowback. The other way I was thinking about  to delay the arbor pin/piston from such a rapid abrupt rearward movement on Otto's suggestion, was to make the pin/piston ride in a spiral groove to slow its rearward movement down.

See what I mean? By slowing down either direct blowback or recoil, you lessen the stress and forces that can otherwise break parts.

But you are absolutely correct that the cocking of the hammer normally, i.e. manually would cause the cylinder to rotate. The problem is that when it is done with direct blowback or recoil forces, those forces are multiplied many times what your manually hand cocked force would be and thus need to be slowed down to prevent galling of the metal, undue wear, or breakage of parts.

Take the Steyr hahn model 1912 semi-auto pistol. It has big angled lugs on its barrel that engage corresponding angled slots on its slide. Which causes a frictional delay when the barrel recoils making the Steyr hahn a delayed blowback semi-auto pistol rather than a locked barrel pistol such as the semi-auto Colt model 1911 pistol. Without that delay in blowback, the Steyr hahn using a very powerful cartridge, would not be able to operate correctly. The only time a direct blowback pistol works is either by using a very low power cartridge, or having a very heavy recoil spring to slow down the rearward movement of the slide. Then the cartridge can simply blow back against the bolt face causing the system to operate. That works pretty good on a linear slide movement semi-auto cartridge pistol. I don't believe it would work as well against the delicate cylinder pawl of a muzzleloading revolver.
Still, I will try drilling out the holes in the percussion cap nipples first, trying direct spent cap and gas blowback against the hammer to see if that breaks anything or has undue wear on parts or causes cylinder over travel like I believe it will. If that doesn't work like I fear it won't, then I will also know that directly using a gas piston on the hammer without delaying the rearward movement of that piston would also not work. Then I have to go back to a method of delaying the system to slow it down.

Understand what I mean akumabito?


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