To Arms! To Arms! To Arms! For Dixie!- Confederate Steampunk

[Malcom Kane]

And England's behavior in Ireland and India was entirely without blame.

[Dr. Madd]

And England's behavior in Ireland and India was entirely without blame.

Ireland's own people sold them out.. And India might have been better off as part of the empire. India as a full colonial partner could have benefitted from british technology and Britain could benefit from a pair of eyes in Asia.

[Arvis]

And England's behavior in Ireland and India was entirely without blame.

Ireland's own people sold them out.. And India might have been better off as part of the empire. India as a full colonial partner could have benefitted from british technology and Britain could benefit from a pair of eyes in Asia.

 Easy folks, let's keep this thread in tune to what we would wear, wield, eat, drink and even smoke. There ain't a country represented here that hasn't done something it should be ashamed of. Especially my own country. I'm pretty sure I'm not personally responsible for any of my countries misdeeds just as I'm sure no one on this board is responsible for their countries misdeeds.
 If indeed I have misunderstood the last few post and are just talk'n outta my butt, please disregard this post. I just didn't see much anatomical context.

 Arvis

[Lazaras]

Here Here!

What advances in material could have been made? Realistically speaking i mean since wool is not a summertime garment.

[Dr. Madd]

Fair enough, and I'll do one better. I humbly request the mod strike my comment from the record.

[Otto Von Pifka]

now that the train is righted and back on the tracks, maybe the confederate soldier in that fine drawing would have a new color to show what service he is in? a dark green piping or some other color? to show heavy weapons instead of artillery?
as nifty as he looks gunning around solo, there is a good reason machine guns are(were) crewed by two or three men. ammo, ammo, ammo.

another idea would be to counter weight the gun with the water evap can behind the soldier or go with an air cooled design. maybe even a clockwork gatling .

[Dr. Madd]

I was thinking orange, to symbolize the fusion of artillery and cavalry.

[Maj Heiner Cybersnell]

Because England saw it for what it was... A larger nation, the Union, applying a double standard to the confederacy.

Not to mention the fact that there seemed to be very little between the sides in terms of their stance on slavery. We need to remember that the Union still contained slave states like Missouri, which in 1861 had tried to extradite an escaped slave from Canada to have him burned alive, and that when General Fremont proclaims limited emancipation there Lincoln countermands it. In the light of this, and the virulent anti-British rhetoric of papers like the New York Herald, there isn't any reason for the passionate anti-slave trade activists Palmerston and Russell to do anything but stand back and let the two sides fight it out.

Slavery was an afterthought in the war. The whole point of the emancipation proclamation was to try and kill morale in the southern states. truthfully slavery had very little to do with the war other than a tactical maneuver.

[MinistryOfTruth]

I was under the impression that the Union deliberately held back on the abolition of slavery so that they could bolster their army's numbers by recruiting slaves (who, if I remember correctly, could not legally be prevented from joining the US Army by their owners) with the promise that their service would "earn" them freedom if they survived the war.

Also, from what I remember reading about them, Robert E. Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson both supported the abolition of slavery.  Had the Confederates won the war, Lee (and Jackson, if he had survived) might have had a pretty good chance of using their popularity to swing public opinion in favour of abolition.

[Arvis]

I was thinking orange, to symbolize the fusion of artillery and cavalry.

 Orange is the color of the signal Corps however I'm not really certain about signal corps uniform in the union army or confederate army outside of the use of the signal flags. This Machine gun isn't a fast moving piece of equipment. Therefor I would see it deployed in, near and around fortifications. Calvary is swift and mounted. This machine gun is neither.  Can you picture this apparatus and it's occupant complying with the order "CHARGE!"?
 Perhaps the king of Siam actually did have one hundred elephants sent to the U.S. and the shipment was captured by the Confederates who subsequently mounted them with these M.G. battle harnesses. (talk about heavy cavalry) Why not? Jeff Davis sent camels into the west.

 "No elephants!? No wonder he losing war!" -king of Siam in reference to Abraham Lincoln.

What advances in material could have been made? Realistically speaking i mean since wool is not a summertime garment.

 "Realistically" this was a big problem on both sides. (especially for the Union not used to our brutal summers) The answer was primarily to shed the heavy stuff (wool) and wear the light stuff. (cotton) Much of the south wore a mix match of civilian and military clothing due to the fact they couldn't afford uniforms to begin with. This is also why the south wore grey, because the dye was cheaper to produce.

 Arvis

[LivingDedBoy]

For those of you who are not fans of pen and paper RPG's I humbly suggest poking around the internet for a game called Deadlands. Though not entirely modern, they do have gatling pistols and other such interesting steam powered contraptions that might have been in use in the event that the civil war was still ongoing.

[Dr. Madd]

I was under the impression that the Union deliberately held back on the abolition of slavery so that they could bolster their army's numbers by recruiting slaves (who, if I remember correctly, could not legally be prevented from joining the US Army by their owners) with the promise that their service would "earn" them freedom if they survived the war.

Also, from what I remember reading about them, Robert E. Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson both supported the abolition of slavery.  Had the Confederates won the war, Lee (and Jackson, if he had survived) might have had a pretty good chance of using their popularity to swing public opinion in favour of abolition.

Actually, if I remember right, There was legislation on Davis's desk when he fled Richmond that would have arranged emancipation.

[Dr. Madd]

I was thinking orange, to symbolize the fusion of artillery and cavalry.

 Orange is the color of the signal Corps however I'm not really certain about signal corps uniform in the union army or confederate army outside of the use of the signal flags. This Machine gun isn't a fast moving piece of equipment. Therefor I would see it deployed in, near and around fortifications. Calvary is swift and mounted. This machine gun is neither.  Can you picture this apparatus and it's occupant complying with the order "CHARGE!"?
 Perhaps the king of Siam actually did have one hundred elephants sent to the U.S. and the shipment was captured by the Confederates who subsequently mounted them with these M.G. battle harnesses. (talk about heavy cavalry) Why not? Jeff Davis sent camels into the west.

 "No elephants!? No wonder he losing war!" -king of Siam in reference to Abraham Lincoln.

What advances in material could have been made? Realistically speaking i mean since wool is not a summertime garment.

 "Realistically" this was a big problem on both sides. (especially for the Union not used to our brutal summers) The answer was primarily to shed the heavy stuff (wool) and wear the light stuff. (cotton) Much of the south wore a mix match of civilian and military clothing due to the fact they couldn't afford uniforms to begin with. This is also why the south wore grey, because the dye was cheaper to produce.

 Arvis

I suggest that a heavy machine gun is an infantry weapon, but with crossed machine guns as insignia.

[TimeTinker]

Perhaps you might replace the Crown on the Machine Gun Corps badge?

[Dr. Madd]

Yes, and that would be on their kepis, with the regular blue infantry trim

[LivingDedBoy]

I thought this was a thread about the retro-futurism of the Civil war. Not the actual discussion of what caused it and such, Cause I could just go get some history books and scan them in if that's what were looking for.

On another note, as far as material advancement I doubt there'd be any at all. Both sides would most likely still be wearing cotton or wool. The reasoning behind this is, with all resources spent on keeping both armies standing and supplied there'd be little if any to put towards research of new materials. Meaning that unless one side or the other got supplies from another country we'd still be mostly using cap and ball black powder weapons and our clothes would be made of any readily available material. Plus we'd probably be scavenging battle fields for anything metal to be melted down and reforged, or just repaired and reissued.

If technology had advanced while we were still locked in combat, then I'd imagine we'd be armed with weapons and uniforms similar to what is worn and used today. That is realistically at least.

But we're ignoring reality, so we can have steam powered zeppelin battles, clockwork tanks, and the like.

[TimeTinker]

I thought this was a thread about the retro-futurism of the Civil war. Not the actual discussion of what caused it and such, Cause I could just go get some history books and scan them in if that's what were looking for.

Since this is in anatomical and going on the original post and the good Doctor's subsequent posts I rather thought it was about what a Confederate Soldier of this fictional continuation would be wearing and carrying. 

In response to your post though Livingdedboy wool uniforms remained the norm for a good century after the American Civil War (whichever name you wish to give it) for European Armies and indeed the US Army.  Some cotton garments were worn and some cotton summer variants but wool was the majority of a soldier's wardrobe.

Personally I find the transitional kit of the Spanish American War very interesting and a useful glance forward for how a Confederacy uniform might go.

[Prof Ainsworth Halfmain]

If that conflict had continued much longer, I can see several areas of advancement.

It was brutally devastating from a tactical point of view. The massed charges against fortified positions with rifled arms were proving particularly effective in getting the attacking parties killed and maimed. Considering the large caliber heavyweight bullets, which penetrate amazingly well if you have ever observed it by shooting them (I have an 1861 Springfield) any sort of personal armor would have been ineffective unless heavy iron plate. The massed volley fire of Napoleonic and earlier eras would have been changed, I'm sure. Still, advances in medicine, field surgery and prosthetic devices would have been necessary to deal with the many amputations when those large projectiles struck bone.

The idea of tanks comes to mind. However, rifled artillery and timed charge explosive projectiles were already replacing smoothbores and roundshot or impact explosives.  Some of the contemporary rifled artillery and shell developments were pretty amazing for distance and accuracy, so it would be interesting to see if land based steamtanks could have been effective.

From a logistics point of view, caliber downsizing was likely. The development of more powerful internally primed cartridges wasn't far away, underpowered pinfires and rimfires already being in deployment. Dr. Gatling's gun, which he hoped would make war too horrible to fight and reduce the number of casualties by requiring smaller armies, would likely have had the same effect machinegun fire did 50 years later in WWI, just earlier.

I could see a case for attempting to use ballons as weapons rather than just observation platforms, eventhough extremely vulnerable to ground fire.

Communications are always a problem in warfare, so increasing use of telegraphs would have been important, perhaps even telegraph activated weapons ( e.g. an early version of the Claymore). True wireless communication was still a ways away, but magnetic induction wireless based on the work of Faraday and Maxwell could have been developed, even remotely activated mines and other weapons.

[Dr. Madd]

They used hot air balloons in the same way planes were used initially in the second world war.. I can imagine either pedal-powered, cranked, or even steam powered balloons and spotting teams shooting at each other.

[Mechanic]

If that conflict had continued much longer, I can see several areas of advancement.
<snip>

I believe larger calibres were used because higher velocity powders were not available. The advantage of smaller, high velocity rounds is a larger basic load per soldier while retaining the same terminal effectiveness at average combat ranges.

The first WWI tanks were just barely bullet proof and were most definitely susceptible to direct fire artillery. I can't do the math at the moment but I expect  even a smooth bore muzzle loader firing solid shot could mess up a Mk I pretty badly. Rifle proof boiler plate would still work to cross Gatling swept ground.

Balloons would not be particularly susceptible to ground fire. Accurate AA gunnery is a tough nut to crack - especially without tracer for small calibres and VT fuse for large to tell you where your rounds are going/exploding. Up until the late 19th century, surface naval gunnery, firing in only two dimensions, was still line of sight and at slightly longer than point blank range. Later big gun developments gave more power to defeat armour but WWI BB style plunging gunnery didn't happen until predictors, sights and shooting procedures were developed*.  3D AA gunnery was nearly impossible at any height even into WWII  flak Barrages).

And finally - a bit later in the period, naval mines were often command detonated by wire.


*Part of the reasoning behind Dreadnought was that if all main battery guns were the same size, their shells would all land at about the same range and make about the same sized splash making ranging and target correction simpler as opposed to different calibre guns landing and splashing all over the ocean. 

 

[Matthias Gladstone]

I thought this was a thread about the retro-futurism of the Civil war. Not the actual discussion of what caused it and such, Cause I could just go get some history books and scan them in if that's what were looking for.

Since this is in anatomical and going on the original post and the good Doctor's subsequent posts I rather thought it was about what a Confederate Soldier of this fictional continuation would be wearing and carrying. 

I'm sorting out a modified "CSN" Privateer's uniform at the moment, with the background listed a few pages back. So far, i've got this coat:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230598528138&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_500wt_1156
Which shall be heavily modified with the appropriate trim and insignia, and i'll be combining it with a pair of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350363067798&var=620002978879&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_2106wt_905
(colour undecided, but likely red)
and a peaked cap, or forage cap or kepi for shore wear.
I need to sort some accoutrements out as well; not entirely sure on the obvious bits yet, but i'm sorting out a letter of marque and some "photos" of our airship in various unlikely places. 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350363067798&var=620002978879&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_2106wt_905

They used hot air balloons in the same way planes were used initially in the second world war.. I can imagine either pedal-powered, cranked, or even steam powered balloons and spotting teams shooting at each other.

Sorry if you've already come across this, but the first true powered flight was in 1852, a steam powered airship built by one Henri Giffard. I've read as well reports of an airship powered by compressed air being flown in 1848 as well.
Our Vessel, is of course a dirigible.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

Try Harry Harrison's Stars and Stripes Triology for inspiration.

Harry has occasionally stryed into both Steampunk (A Transatlantic Tunnel Hurrah!) and the American Civil War (Rebel In Time) thisis perhaps a juncture of the two as military technology evolves slightly differently in this alternative world.

[Malcom Kane]

Have you considered a Tabi style boot to make climbing aroud inside an airship easier?

[robcraufurd]

And England's behavior in Ireland and India was entirely without blame.

I think the people you really want to argue with are long since dead- I'm just explaining what they thought.The whole subject of Britain and the American Civil War is surrounded by so much nationalism, misunderstanding, obscurantism and confusion that as soon as you dip below the surface and discover what people actually said, wrote and (perhaps) thought, you're in an absolute goldmine of information. For instance, it's fascinating that almost exactly seven years before the Emancipation Proclamation, Palmerston was writing that "a British force landed in the Southern part of the Union, proclaiming freedom to the blacks would shake many of the stars from their banner..."

[Prof Ainsworth Halfmain]

April 4, 1865

Gentlemen,
The news from Richmond this morning is distressing in the extreme. Over the last two days conditions have degraded from chaotic to worse since the evacuation order was given. The stores and warehouses were fired last evening late to prevent their fall into Union hands, but a great ill wind caused the conflagration to spread out of control. Passersby say as many or more than 50 city blocks are aflame, the greater part of the city riverfront having been destroyed. I myself have witnessed the glow of great fires that have burned through the night, the flames sometimes so great that they leapt above the tree lines from my vantage point to the west, accompanied by numerous thunderous explosions as the munitions storehouse great shells burst in horrifying staccato. Rumors are that the great Tredegar Ironworks is in ruins and the rail tracks burned or rendered inoperative by the departing army, lest the advancing Union forces make use of them to their advantage. Throngs of refugees from the city pass in a continuous stream, their retreat orderly hurried more than panicked, many now burned homeless and on foot only with what they could carry. Their pallid faces tell of the horror, few willling to speak of what they have witnessed, and most stopping only momentarily to fill water casks along the James. A good number are still drunk from the whiskey that was released in store and filled the streets. Most of General Lee's city defense forces had passed by only a day earlier in their retreat to the west. Many expressed hope that they may make the Blue Ridge to continue on with their efforts, even if having to resort to a protracted campaign of guerilla tactics, in hopes of joining with General Johnston's army in North Carolina. I have only had time to gather a few journals, books and experimental prototype devices based on work in induction coil electric amplification principles in hopes that developments will aid our future efforts, should there be any hope of success, before evacuating to the west myself. I fear the Union army's pursuit of General Lee may bring them close enough that I feel imperiled lest their interest in scientific matters bring them to ill use against our endeavours. I hope to take rest and write again from acquaintance Wilmer McLean's house near Appomatox if I am able to make it in the next few days. 

Yr obt svt, Prof Ainsworth Halfmain