A new model locomotive

[James Harrison]

Following on from my summer project, a kitbash of a Bachmann "Emily" into a Stirling Single, I'm now moving forwards a stage and starting a new model.  I have in mind an LNER (Ex-GCR) N5, for my eventual planned model of Marylebone station.  Currently I have an ebay-bought plasticard body that although freelance in nature is obviously based upon the N5, a Hornby Dean Goods chassis and a Hornby X04 motor to power it. 

And this is where somebody can help me, I hope.  I don't have a scale drawing of the prototype, and considering the last one was scrapped in 1960 I have the greatest difficulty in visiting one to measure and photograph    I have heard that there is a drawing of one in a copy of Railway Modeller from the early 1970s- does anybody have a copy?  And, if so, would they mind awfully scanning it for me?   

[James Harrison]

Got started... and got stuck.  Upshot is I've now had to order a new collector plate (part of the chassis).  Succeeded in taking the chassis apart, added a cog wheel to the central axle (so that the motor can drive the loco, not a non-existant tender) but in so doing wrecked the collector plate to the extent that it now doesn't collect    Or hold the axles in place, for that matter.  It still runs sweet as a nut, my ministrations notwithstanding, just that now it needs a new plate, which is quite an important little bit.   

So I'm now working on the body until the new part for the chassis arrives.  And then I've got to work out how to cut the aperture needed in it without destroying the new part.

[SPBrewer]

I just came into a bunch of model railroad parts from an estate.  I know nothing about them other than the little bit of research I've done in the last couple of hours, but if I have the parts you need you are welcome to them.  It looks like they are "n"  and "HO" scales, Lamps and Couplers, box car parts, wheels, and a wide variety of other parts.  Do you have a photo of the parts you need?

[James Harrison]

That's a very kind offer, but all the bits I need I already have.  The problem I have is to meld them into one coherent whole without it looking a mess (or coming apart at the first opportunity!)  The collector plate I've had to replace is this bit here, which is the top part of the chassis (and which I worked out only after I cut it up that it provided a degree of tension holding the wheels and the chassis bottom in place...)

Hey ho.  I'm currently trying to form a Belpaire firebox from a block of balsa wood. 

[Aleister Crow]

Firebox... wood...

I think I see a problem here...  

[SPBrewer]

That's a very kind offer,  

One thing I've noticed. the "BrassGoggles" group is more giving and willing to help than any other group, of any kind, I've seen on the Internet.

 

[James Harrison]

That's a very kind offer,  

One thing I've noticed. the "BrassGoggles" group is more giving and willing to help than any other group, of any kind, I've seen on the Internet.

 

Indeed it is; and it is refreshing.  It is, I feel, unique in this regard. 

Firebox... wood...

I think I see a problem here... 

In the words of Jeremeiah Clarksonius, 'what could possibly go wrong?    It would make perfect sense building a firebox out of flammable material on the Discworld, and on this Roundworld marks me out as a worthy descendant of B S Johnson.

[Miles (a sailor)Martin]

 I still want A B S Johnson still, it would be perfect for making 307 ale_TM and 307lite_TM  as made imortal by Tom Smith 

[James Harrison]

I don't anticipate any more work on this project for quite a while yet.... took it home to work on it over the Christmas break and then decided to leave it there....

So maybe now is a good time to talk about exactly what I've done to it and, more importantly, other similar projects I'm ruminating. 

I started off with a chassis with a pair of wires leading to a motor in a tender.  Which is fine, except this engine doesn't have one.  So I had to take the chassis apart to get to the axles, and then take the central axle apart to put a gear wheel on it.  That done I had to put the wheel I removed back onto the axle, taking care to quarter it properly (being a steam loco the wheels are set at 90 degrees to each other- imagine the connecting rods have to 'waddle' to get the engine down the track) and to get it in gauge. 

That done I had a poser.  Six wheels on the chassis, all with pickups (basically a piece of copper to conduct electricity from the wheel tyre to the wire leading to the motor). Problem was, the pickups ran down the centre of the chassis, right where I needed to cut a hole in it to accommodate the new gear wheel.  So I elected to cut through them and accept two wheel pickup instead of six.  With that done it was a relatively simple matter to put the axles back in place, clip the top and bottom of the chassis together again and leave myself with a six wheel chassis with a gear wheel on the central axle.  A lot of work with not much to show for it. 

http://static.hornby.com/files/ss-244b-82.pdf

The above link is to a copy of the service sheet for the chassis I used.  Put simply, parts '1' and '4' had to have holes cut into them, and part '1' had some copper wiring which needed removal.  The middle axle of part '3' had to be taken apart, a gear wheel forced onto it, and then put back together again in such a way that it didn't derail and didn't bind up or warp the connecting rods (part '2').

Moving onto the motor.  I'm using the same motor that Hornby use for their 0-4-0 shunting locos.  A very simple setup with a worm drive connecting to a gear wheel (hence why I had to take the chassis apart.) The motor also came with a cast metal mount.  This I had to cut down in such a way that it locks into a hollow on the chassis.  Then the motor slips into the mount and also has a wire holding strap to counteract the longitudinal forces that would push it off the gear wheel rather than drive the axle.  Problem is, there is nowhere on the chassis to attach it to.  I'm considering using araldite to simply glue the motor to the mount instead and then glue the mount into the chassis. 

Onto the pickups again, two just won't cut it.  With only one axle picking up current I can foresee all sorts of problems when it runs onto pointwork.  So I'm going to make new pickups from copper and run them down the outside of the chassis, thus avoiding the new gearing. 

Moving onto the body, which I bought as a semi-completed attempt at a scratchbuild, I've had to cut apertures either side of the smokebox to accept the front axle.  I think that although the body was advertised as being for an 0-6-2 wheel arrangement, in fact the original builder was going more for an 2-4-2 setup.  Moving further back along the body I've got to build a new firebox, of the belpaire rather than round-topped pattern.  I added a round-topped belpaire box of card and matchsticks, but it is not quite right.  Maybe a paper overlay braced with matchstick would be a better option.  Then I have to add new cab and tank sides. The tanks are quite acceptable as they are, but the cab sides don't look right and because they are flush with the tanks to add a new layer to one I have to add a new layer to the other. 

Still further back the bunker is quite acceptable, but needs either a flared top or coal rails adding.  Below the bunker I need to work out how to add the frames and the pony truck. 

Although it sounds a lot of work, once I have a rolling and powered chassis the rest should be relatively easy. 


~~~~


Other projects I have in mind:

Ideally I don't want to fiddle around with chassis and motors again.  What I'm therefore looking at are the models Hornby make, which are powered by chassis with the right wheel arrangement and of more or less the same dimensions as the locos I'd like to own. 

Thus; 

Using a complete 'Dean Goods' chassis (loco, tender and motor) I reckon I could build a passable LNER (ex-GCR) J10 0-6-0 freight locomotive.  Wheel diameters are only 1'' out (which is next-to-nothing in 4mm/ft scale) and wheel centres are only 6'' out (2mm at 4mm/ft). 

Using a complete '4F' chassis I could build an LNER (ex-GCR) J11 0-6-0 freight engine.  Again, wheel diameters and centres are so similar that at 4mm/ft there's no appreciable discrepancy.

Finally, but this will probably have to wait a long time, Hornby are reintroducing their D49 4-4-0 with a motor mounted in the loco rather than the tender.  I can use this chassis to build an ex-GCR D10 or D11.  Maybe even one of each...     

[Mécanicien de Vapeur]

That done I had a poser.  Six wheels on the chassis, all with pickups (basically a piece of copper to conduct electricity from the wheel tyre to the wire leading to the motor). Problem was, the pickups ran down the centre of the chassis, right where I needed to cut a hole in it to accommodate the new gear wheel.  So I elected to cut through them and accept two wheel pickup instead of six.  With that done it was a relatively simple matter to put the axles back in place, clip the top and bottom of the chassis together again and leave myself with a six wheel chassis with a gear wheel on the central axle.  A lot of work with not much to show for it. 

Onto the pickups again, two just won't cut it.  With only one axle picking up current I can foresee all sorts of problems when it runs onto pointwork.  So I'm going to make new pickups from copper and run them down the outside of the chassis, thus avoiding the new gearing. 

I've added pick-ups to various model locos (including Hornby's) by using either brass or phosphor-bronze wire (usually 0.45mm handrail wire) soldered to a small piece of copperclad, plus a lead to the motor, then superglued to the chassis such that the ends of the wire bear onto the wheel tread.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(yes, it's a Hornby diesel power/trailing bogie, but the basic technique shows) I've also done some where the copperclad is glued to the underside of the keeper plate with the wires arranged to bear on the backs of the wheel flanges, better looking for steam locos, though you might have to watch the clearance over point mechanisms, barrow crossings, etc.

Other projects I have in mind:

Ideally I don't want to fiddle around with chassis and motors again.  What I'm therefore looking at are the models Hornby make, which are powered by chassis with the right wheel arrangement and of more or less the same dimensions as the locos I'd like to own. 

Using a complete '4F' chassis I could build an LNER (ex-GCR) J11 0-6-0 freight engine.  Again, wheel diameters and centres are so similar that at 4mm/ft there's no appreciable discrepancy.

I recall an article (possibly in the Railway Modeller, mid/late 1980s) where the Hornby (nee Airfix) LMS 4F was converted to a very passable GC J11/1, with just a new cab, tender flare plates and boiler fittings requiring modification. I'll see if I can track the article down.

Finally, but this will probably have to wait a long time, Hornby are reintroducing their D49 4-4-0 with a motor mounted in the loco rather than the tender.  I can use this chassis to build an ex-GCR D10 or D11.  Maybe even one of each...     

Back in the 80s, a company called Jaycraft produced a series of resin loco and tender bodies for various locos (including the GC D11 Director) to fir existing RTR chassis - I had their GER J20 and D16 'Claud Hamilton' bodies back when I modelled 1950s BR. Might be worth keeping an eye out for those? And I'm sure I've seen a chap at model railway shows selling resin steam loco bodies (again for fitting to RTR chassis), I'll keep an eye open for his stand and see what types he does.

Wills Finecast also did a considerable range of whitemetal loco/tender kits intended for Hornby and other chassis - I think the range is still available and certainly turn up second-hand at shows and on ebay.

HTH,

[Angus A Fitziron]

James et al, I hope you don't mind me highjacking your very interesting thread for my own purposes?
How do I go about identifying the service sheet for a loco I am working on? The chassis is 0-6-0, presumably meant to have inside cyinders and has the number S.4581 stamped on the top of the chassis. I bought it as a bare chassis as I am modelling in 1/35 ~ 1/36th, and I know next to nothing about model railway engineering.

My plan is for a shelf layout in my new study which will be a 1/36th scale model of a steampunk location based in 19thC rural N.E. France. I am using Peco On30 narrow gauge rail to represent 60cm and the aim is to have fun with a quirky layout rather than anything accurate to history (scale is important!). I am using military figures / animals / carts etc as window dressing, but the locomotives are the stumbling block as they will have to be scratch built.

The 0-6-0 is particularly challenging as I want to replicate a narrow gauge version of a Glaskasten, a version of which had inside cylinders, but as far as I can find out were all standard gauge. The reason for including a model is the proximity of Prussia to my chosen location and the historic liklihood of Prussian military railway engineers 'spying' out the French railway system pending an invasion (and because I just like it!)



The main problem and the reason for needing the spec sheet is that I must remove the two middle wheels (the driving wheels) and replace them with counter-weighted drive shafts which then transfer the drive via the side rods to the remaining 4 wheels. Do you think this will work or do I need to gear drive the 4 remaining wheels (or at least two of them)?

[James Harrison]

To identify the spec sheet you must first identify the manufacturer, then if you're lucky some kind soul will have scanned it onto the internet. 
As to the modification, if you carefully remove the coupling rods (they usually screw on, or at least, Hornby ones do) you may find it possible to cut away the wheels (if they've got plastic centres), leaving the axle hub and the coupling rod shaft intact.  Then it should be a matter of building up the counterweight.  Usually an 0-6-0 chassis is powered on the middle axle, which may pose a problem in terms of torque, but at such a small scale I would consider it unlikely. 

I've added pick-ups to various model locos (including Hornby's) by using either brass or phosphor-bronze wire (usually 0.45mm handrail wire) soldered to a small piece of copperclad, plus a lead to the motor, then superglued to the chassis such that the ends of the wire bear onto the wheel tread.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(yes, it's a Hornby diesel power/trailing bogie, but the basic technique shows) I've also done some where the copperclad is glued to the underside of the keeper plate with the wires arranged to bear on the backs of the wheel flanges, better looking for steam locos, though you might have to watch the clearance over point mechanisms, barrow crossings, etc.

Funnily enough I had a similar idea about 2 nights after getting back to uni.  Mine involves using a copper sheet cut and folded up to lightly press against the back of the wheels with a further projection touching the side of the motor to transfer the current.  I'm glad to see by your experience such a madcap solution could work 

I recall an article (possibly in the Railway Modeller, mid/late 1980s) where the Hornby (nee Airfix) LMS 4F was converted to a very passable GC J11/1, with just a new cab, tender flare plates and boiler fittings requiring modification. I'll see if I can track the article down.

Oooh, I'm intrigued.  If you could find it I'd be most grateful.  I have a scaled drawing of a J11 but I must admit the idea of building an entire body for one, with little previous experience, does make me nervous. 

Back in the 80s, a company called Jaycraft produced a series of resin loco and tender bodies for various locos (including the GC D11 Director) to fir existing RTR chassis - I had their GER J20 and D16 'Claud Hamilton' bodies back when I modelled 1950s BR. Might be worth keeping an eye out for those? And I'm sure I've seen a chap at model railway shows selling resin steam loco bodies (again for fitting to RTR chassis), I'll keep an eye open for his stand and see what types he does.

Wills Finecast also did a considerable range of whitemetal loco/tender kits intended for Hornby and other chassis - I think the range is still available and certainly turn up second-hand at shows and on ebay.

HTH,

Jaycraft... I think I've heard that name before.  I'll have to look them up.  I think the resin bodies are made by Dean Sidings- I have looked for the company on the internet but it appears the proprietor prefers to deal face to face rather than via a webpage.  I'm also going to keep an eye out for Wills Finecast- they are still going but most of their current efforts are intended for a kitbuilt chassis.

Many thanks for the help! 

Damn', I want to get on with it now and I've got... four months, before I'm on holiday again and can get to it 

[Mécanicien de Vapeur]

The 0-6-0 is particularly challenging as I want to replicate a narrow gauge version of a Glaskasten, a version of which had inside cylinders, but as far as I can find out were all standard gauge. The reason for including a model is the proximity of Prussia to my chosen location and the historic liklihood of Prussian military railway engineers 'spying' out the French railway system pending an invasion (and because I just like it!)



The main problem and the reason for needing the spec sheet is that I must remove the two middle wheels (the driving wheels) and replace them with counter-weighted drive shafts which then transfer the drive via the side rods to the remaining 4 wheels. Do you think this will work or do I need to gear drive the 4 remaining wheels (or at least two of them)?

I would definitely try modding the centre wheelset first, not least as you'd retain the crank throws and quartering, rather than trying to match the outer wheelsets with a scratchbuilt job (been there, done that, didn't end well  )

If you can easily get the siderods off, remove the centre wheel rims (if metal, cut through the rim in two places, then it should separate from the plastic centre. I'd then suggest cutting away all the spokes except the 2 opposite the con-rod crank - use these 2 as the basis for the counterweight. With luck (assuming the centre axle can be dropped complete out of the chassis) you won't even need to disassemble the wheelset. (I did something similar for an O gauge 0-4-0 jackshaft-drive shunter, converted the 3rd wheelset into a counterweighted flycrank.

1:35 isn't one of the commoner railway modelling gauges, but is very popular with AFV modelling.  

[Angus A Fitziron]

To identify the spec sheet you must first identify the manufacturer, then if you're lucky some kind soul will have scanned it onto the internet. 
As to the modification, if you carefully remove the coupling rods (they usually screw on, or at least, Hornby ones do) you may find it possible to cut away the wheels (if they've got plastic centres), leaving the axle hub and the coupling rod shaft intact.  Then it should be a matter of building up the counterweight.  Usually an 0-6-0 chassis is powered on the middle axle, which may pose a problem in terms of torque, but at such a small scale I would consider it unlikely. 

Thank you James, the chassis I have are Hornby but tracking down which one was the problem. Thanks to your lead I have done some digging and have come up with some answers. The problem I have is that I don't know what is available so, to see your spec sheet gave me a real lead. I have decided as a result that I have the wrong chassis and I would be better off with a Hornby Terrier or a Bachmann or Lima Pannier. Just lost an EBay bid on the Lima... They both drive the end wheels so the motor torque will be transferred directly to the track.

I would definitely try modding the centre wheelset first, not least as you'd retain the crank throws and quartering, rather than trying to match the outer wheelsets with a scratchbuilt job (been there, done that, didn't end well  )

If you can easily get the siderods off, remove the centre wheel rims (if metal, cut through the rim in two places, then it should separate from the plastic centre. I'd then suggest cutting away all the spokes except the 2 opposite the con-rod crank - use these 2 as the basis for the counterweight. With luck (assuming the centre axle can be dropped complete out of the chassis) you won't even need to disassemble the wheelset. (I did something similar for an O gauge 0-4-0 jackshaft-drive shunter, converted the 3rd wheelset into a counterweighted flycrank.

Thank you both for the advice - again I wouldn't have thought of that approach until you suggested it. You have both been most helpful.

1:35 isn't one of the commoner railway modelling gauges, but is very popular with AFV modelling.   

No, you are correct but it is not entirely unknown. I am looking for a diorama style of presentation so the reasons that 1/35 works well for AFV scenes, suggests it will work well for my NG railway. The fact that 00 track scales almost perfectly to 60cm at 1/36 is a bonus! Thank you both for your help, I promise not to threadjack again and will post under a new thread when I have made some progress.

[Mécanicien de Vapeur]

Thank you James, the chassis I have are Hornby but tracking down which one was the problem. Thanks to your lead I have done some digging and have come up with some answers. The problem I have is that I don't know what is available so, to see your spec sheet gave me a real lead. I have decided as a result that I have the wrong chassis and I would be better off with a Hornby Terrier or a Bachmann or Lima Pannier. Just lost an EBay bid on the Lima... They both drive the end wheels so the motor torque will be transferred directly to the track.

I'd avoid the Lima Pannier (and the LNER J50 which shares the same chassis) personally as the motor is total rubbish, plus the middle wheelset isn't connected to the siderods. The Hornby (ex-Dapol) Terrier is a good mechanism and any of the Bachmann 0-6-0s are very good.

[James Harrison]

I can't speak of any Lima models but personally I've yet to find any problems with the Hornby 0-6-0 mechanisms.  The Bachmann ones are also pretty good, if their J39/K3 six-coupled models are anything to go by.