Manners and decency

[Legba]

I have a question for the general community:
Do you ever get the feeling that we are a dying breed?  Not just the anachronistic aspects of SP, but the general adherence to decency and good manners in general?  I must say I have been quite surprised at my recent observations of what I would call rudeness just for the sake of it!  
I have recently moved to a loft community in central Texas and to be fair the complex is on the higher side of the rent spectrum for the area due to the fact we are close to Baylor University.  I thought that the rent factor and the university would mean a decent sort of resident, and when we moved here in the summer it was a very nice place.  Now that school is back in full swing, and the “Kids” are back, I have come to dread venturing into the halls!  I have to admit that I am not a young man anymore, but I never thought of myself as the old “Grump” either.  I am just appalled at the general lack of common decency that these “Kids” display.  Examples are:
Leaving trash everywhere
Not cleaning up after their animal, even in the building
Throwing door mats onto the pipes in the central hallway
Intentionally throwing glass into the pool
And just being generally being rude, i.e. as I pass someone I generally say “Hello” or “Good Morning” Etc.  Not once has it been reciprocated or even acknowledged.  I have complained to the management about the other issues, but keep getting,” Well you know they are just Kids” Of which I am sick off!  We are talking about college aged persons here, that means at least eighteen and beyond and we have a lot of graduate students here as well.  At what point is someone no longer considered a “Kid”?  Or why does society now condone this type of behavior?  Why is it now acceptable to just be a jerk?  
I know I am living in another world, as I tend to dress formally, both as work requires a suit, but also I just love suits, and being dressed in general.  I also am very into etiquette as I prefer to be decent, and conduct myself as a Gentleman.  Is that really a bad thing?  So I am used to being scoffed at as others see me as “look at that guy! Who does he think he is?”  And I get looks sometimes as I hold doors open for ladies (but only from young ones) All of that I can tolerate and am ok with.  I just do not get the general lack of decency anymore.
So am I alone here, am I wrong?  Have I become the “Grump” what are your thoughts and observations?  Above all else, thank you for allowing me to vent.
Very much looking forward to other opinions.

Legba
Me on a usual day

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q411/zamurai21c/Sean002.jpg

[JingleJoe]

I have tangled recently with the normal people, they are rude and ill mannered and stupid, I make social faux pas sometimes that offend people but they have not even made mistakes, they are just plain indecent and rude. I note that some of the older ones are better mannered though.

I am one of the young'uns, 21 orbits around the sun, however I dont behave anything like them! I do not understand the normal people, nor can I make them understand me entirely, we are a breed apart and make no sense.

To college (where I see these Eloi) I wear a waistcoat, a blazer/suit jacket, cargo pants and some big boots, which is what I wear for all else.


P.S. You look fantastic Mr Legba

[Legba]

Thank you Sir!

I applauded your individuality, and decision to stand apart from the norm, I knew already that steampunk, anachronistic persons call us what you will, we are just different.

[Wormster]

Legba old chap,

No its not you who notices this:

IMO, the younger generations seem to have little or no manners at all. Perhaps this has something to do with the late 20th century and the break down of moral and family values.

I worked in a primary school for 15 years, at the beginning most of the children were polite and well behaved, but towards the end there was a swing the other way, with the majority of the children coming in (even as young as 5 years old) having little or few social graces or manners!

As a parent I strive to instill good manners in my 2 children of 12 and 10, its not easy, but its paying off. I and the kids have been complimented on a few occasions now about how good their manners are!

[Callidwyn]

Wow, they sound like idiots. To leave their animal excrement in the building they have to live in! Perhaps they're thinking someone else will clear it up for them.
I am 17 and attending High School, but I think we're fairly well-mannered here. We'll hold doors for each other and such like. Although, granted, half the time the sheer mass of the crowd keeps them open (the corridors get very crowded in between lessons). There are, of course, the idiots but, in general, I feel we're quite a good lot; people will usually happily speak to most others and help people out if they need it. I feel quite lucky that I'm in such a school.
(Of course, I'm a shy person, so see fairly little of other people. & our school is not in a "rough" area or anything. So I may have a sheltered view of this).

[Legba]

Legba old chap,

No its not you who notices this:

IMO, the younger generations seem to have little or no manners at all. Perhaps this has something to do with the late 20th century and the break down of moral and family values.

I worked in a primary school for 15 years, at the beginning most of the children were polite and well behaved, but towards the end there was a swing the other way, with the majority of the children coming in (even as young as 5 years old) having little or few social graces or manners!

As a parent I strive to instill good manners in my 2 children of 12 and 10, its not easy, but its paying off. I and the kids have been complimented on a few occasions now about how good their manners are!

I am with you all the way!  I have made my son behave and learn manners. I even had him read the “How to be a Gentleman” book.  I have instilled in him a sense of pride and in doing what is right even when no one is looking.  He has said he gets teased a bit at school, but for the most part he is left alone.  I told him that it is not always easy to do what is right but if you do not, then evil wins.

[Mnemoria]

A friend, living in a dormitory area for two universities, is of the belief that the students are sent far from home purely so their behaviour does not annoy their parents. The typical behaviour I've observed fits with my friend's belief.
My behaviour is far from perfect, however I strive to be curteous and polite and hope my conduct is perceived as gentlemanly though I simply follow the standards and rules I grew up with.
I could pretend that the fall in standards is merely a recent thing, unfortunately many of my peers as a youth seemed to reject a basic standard of decency and I'm not sure that, approaching my half century, there has been any further decline in general behaviour.

Edited To Add.
The change I have noticed is the lack of change in standards as these youths supposedly become adults.
 

[Vivian Ward Renehan]

I think there is a lot of rudeness in general in the world, and not just from young people but people of all ages. It's simply become more socially acceptable to behave poorly/without courtesy.

The entire Boston area is saturated with colleges and where I live, in Cambridge, there are always throngs of students.

I live in a building with a very, very high rent and is basically advertised as luxury high rise living. The apartments themselves are beautiful (floor to ceiling windows, views of Boston and the Charles river, etc) but the building itself offers a lot of amenities.. pool, workout room, a concierge, a mail room, an internet cafe..

In any case, during my time here I've also been shocked to see how the college students who stay here treat the building, the grounds, the staff, and their fellow renters. A lot of the same stuff you've mentioned, though I'll also add that the building has 23 floors and we have only four elevators to accommodate the people who live here. Apparently if you press the close door button at the same time as you press a number, the elevator will not stop on any other floors. A lot of kids have figured this out and because, god forbid, they don't want to have to wait the extra 10 seconds for you to get onto the elevator, they use this method and cause massive back-ups in the lobby, ESPECIALLY during peak hours (M-F, 8-9 am and 5-7 pm). The staff had the feature disabled on all but the service elevator finally (and thankfully) but it's ridiculous that people felt that was acceptable behavior in the first place.

[greensteam]

Legba,
I reccommend you come for a holiday in Glasgow. You will be amazed. Although we are as bad at litter as anywhere you are likely to go, I never see dog poo on the streets. Although there is a lot of effing and blinding, to say the least, the crudest, drunkest, most loutish ned* will always thank the bus driver politely on getting off the bus. And everyone will chat kindly to the snottiest wee kid on the bus. Total strangers will hide one pound coins in the clothes of a new born baby on public transport.

There is good in them all, as well as loutishness. Keep saying good morning and eventually they wont be able to help themselves and they will respond.

* A 'ned' is a 'chav' in England and I have no idea in the USA, but is a young person with no interest in education or work, who wears mainly tracksuits and trainers and a good deal of solid gold bling. Chief interests apparently getting falling-down drunk, bad language and fighting.

[H. MacHinery]

Found on the Web:

An Assyrian clay tablet dating to around 2800 B.C. bears the inscription: “Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching.”

Everyone thinks their generation is the last one with manners.

[rovingjack]

see mins 3-4

The Island of Dr. Moreau finale

[Kelley]

The profusion of Etiquette Guides and articles in the Victorian era alone is quite the body of evidence that people were not all well-mannered.

There were "rude" people all throughout history. The Regency era was fairly well known for being so.



I don't really notice any of these "rude" people. I know they exist in the same way I know other sorts of unpleasant people exist. I hardly ever see them.

I'm much more concerned with the strangers who go out of their way to care about me or help me. I feel that of the two, they deserve my mental attention far more than these so-called "rude" people do.

I don't live in an idyllic little village, but near one of the largest universities in the USA. So there's that.

[Flynn MacCallister]

This contributes absolutely nothing to this thread, but every time I see the title, it puts Etiquette by The Men That Will Not Be Blamed For Nothing into my head.

Manners. Maketh. The Man!

As for on-topic, I think this is a case of the rose-tinted rear view mirror, personally. Every age has people wailing about the degradation of society... making exactly the same complaints we hear today. Seriously, all the way back to ancient Greece and Rome, the complaints are all the same. I really don't think that people now are any different at all from how they have ever been.

[Raoxshna]

Having been raised to be a fairly polite and (I hope) decent person I noticed the following in my teens:
 
Some kids were indeed rude, obnoxious or loud. This bothered some people of the older persuasion. But instead of thinking: Hey those kids are rude! they kinda seemed to think that ALL kids were like that. This resulted in quite a lot of mostly elderly men saying really rude things to me and to others.
Now I try to be polite to people, but when they yell at me for no reason whatsoever I do tend to get angry and I say what is on my mind. This did not help my case, because people who are rude to you under the misconception that you are the bad person, do not tend to respond well to anger.
Anyhow, some people my age started to think that  older people in general were not very nice people and acted accordingly... You get the picture.

There are always rude people that are just not very nice (and there are sadly a lot of those), but I also believe that there are people being rude to one anther because they didn't take the time to know each other and just assumed the worst.

Also there are the lazy ones that don't even notice they are inconsiderate and don't really care, those are annoying.  

[JingleJoe]

As for on-topic, I think this is a case of the rose-tinted rear view mirror, personally. Every age has people wailing about the degradation of society... making exactly the same complaints we hear today. Seriously, all the way back to ancient Greece and Rome, the complaints are all the same. I really don't think that people now are any different at all from how they have ever been.

Objection!
I think that the age at which the social decline happens has decreased, you see now young children smoking and wanting to do all these adult things with no sense of decency about them. Years ago I know the very young children were not like this and if they were, there were far less of them than today and thier "sins" were childish things.

Well I got distracted at this point and forgot the point I was making ... basically I agree that every generation complains about the youths rebeling against socially accepted traditions or whatever, but today, looking at things as unbiased as I can, the youth and especially young children are worse now then they were 20 or 30 years ago. Manners are left behind, honor and decency and chivalry too.

[bicyclebuilder]

As for on-topic, I think this is a case of the rose-tinted rear view mirror, personally. Every age has people wailing about the degradation of society... making exactly the same complaints we hear today. Seriously, all the way back to ancient Greece and Rome, the complaints are all the same. I really don't think that people now are any different at all from how they have ever been.

Objection!
I think that the age at which the social decline happens has decreased, you see now young children smoking and wanting to do all these adult things with no sense of decency about them. Years ago I know the very young children were not like this and if they were, there were far less of them than today and thier "sins" were childish things.

Well I got distracted at this point and forgot the point I was making ... basically I agree that every generation complains about the youths rebeling against socially accepted traditions or whatever, but today, looking at things as unbiased as I can, the youth and especially young children are worse now then they were 20 or 30 years ago. Manners are left behind, honor and decency and chivalry too.

I think your both right Flynn and JingleJoe. It has always been "those youngsters and there ill maners" but it is starting to get out of hand. I think it has something to do with action/reaction. Not so many decades ago, if you were caught stealing, you were disciplined and hard. Chop of a hand and you won't steal again. You would think twice if you were eaven thinking about stealing. Nowadays when a policeman pulls a "youngster" over, he gets a big mouth. And it seems there is nothing the policeman can do, because (sticks and stones....)
Being adolencent is about widening your boundries. How far can one go and what are the consequenses. If you can let your dog do it's buisiness, don't clean up and get away with it, then why bother cleaning up anyway?
Social controle is also shrinking rapidly. In the good old days, people took care of eachother and correct eachother if nescessery. If you'd swaer, a bystander would point out your rude behavour. If you would do that nowadays, you get a big mouth in return.
I don't believe we have to be all goody-two-shoes but we could try to be more polite. I'm also for correcting people who aren't polite. If I see a person who lets his/her dog poo whithout cleaning up afterwards, I most certanly say something.
Only this way we can turn things around. If you don't say anything, you agree with the inpoliteness. I've had several pets (dogs and cats) and there is only one way to teach them what's right and wrong and thats by praising when doing right but also disciplining when doing wrong. Same goes for people.

[Callidwyn]

I was reading through this thread again and have been reminded of things I've heard about people not wanting to do what is "right" because of consequences that wouldn't have happened some years ago. Men are less willing to help a child in case people think they're a paedophile. A man might be unwilling to hold open a door or give up his seat on a bus to a someone in case they see it as offensive (sexist, ageist, pregnant when she's not).
Maybe they should teach that stuff in schools. Along with grammar, which doesn't seem to be taught properly!
I'm sure I've seen Al Murray teaching lads to be gentlemen with a lady...

[Birdnest]

First off, Mr Legba, I feel your angst.

When I was a wee lad growing up in San Diego most folk seemed quite polite.  It could be that we live next to the Naval Training Center, or perhaps our neighborhood sustained a sheltered existence.  As I grew older and had kiddies of my own, we could no longer bear the growing indifference within our community and moved to Western Montana.

Getting to the points:
Rudeness is still a regional thing, with some places inexplicably worse than others ... oddly, affluent population centers seem worse (you want RUDE, take a walk down Rodeo Drive in LA).  There are some areas within this civilized world where being polite matters quite a lot ... such as Glasgow as described by 'greensteam', or our slice of Western Montana.  Missoula is almost comically polite! ("After You ... No, After You").  Everyone says thank-you, everybody waves (it's how we tell the locals from the transplants). 
Maybe its the latitude!

Second point.

Well you know they are just Kids

That form of indifference or apathy is the root of the problem.  In our area that kind of lack of responsibility is not tolerated. The "U" will send beasties home for actions such as that.

Good Luck mate, keep your chin up.  You are a distinguished gentleman and deserve to be treated as such.

Take a travel in the North to revive your faith in humanity when you have an opportunity!

T.

[LadyAsprin]

I was waiting for a bus and due to parked cars to see the buses before they arrive you have to stand in the road (just off the kerb).  An elderly arrived at the stop after me and proceeded to push in front of me, I was going to let her on before me anyway.  After pushing in front of me  she then stepped backwards in to me.

[delCano]

There are things that are inherent to the human being, such as egoism and a certain indifference towards other people. Moreover, in the huge cities of today (there were only around 1.5 billion humans a hundred years ago, population is growing too fast), we interact with so many people we can't cope anymore, so we just cut it out: the others don't exist to me.

Moreover, there's been a certain tendency in the last decennies to overprotect kids and eliminate their responsibilities. Kids are no more future adults, they're a special species: no more physical punishments (or even no punishments at all*), almost no rules, "they're just kids". My girlfriend is a teacher and has worked as such (although no more), and told me she and her colleagues had been threatened more than once by parents because they punished the kids for misbehavior. Parents who cared argued that "school was there for teaching manners to their children" (it's not: it's there to teach knowledge to the children, manners are learned at home), so they didn't have to.

Some people can grow up just fine from this, and of course many parents still educate their kids. But many don't, and their number is increasing. If there are no boundaries as a kid, there won't be any as an adult.

* This is essential: many of our actions have no immediate consequences, but do have some in the longer term. While we're growing, we can't see the long term: punishment is the only way to have an immediate consequence and therefore, a learning. It's exactly the same as teaching pets: many advocate 'no punishments', and then get to be dominated by their animals. Of course, punishments don't have near-killing beatings: everything should be measured. No one said it'd be easy being a parent.

[Rockula]

I'd like to just mention that I know a few extremely rude pensioners.

[Theosophus Grey]

Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart.  As someone who has lived long enough to see multiple generations reach adulthood, let me sum it up for you:

THEY'RE BORED AND SPOILED.

By that, I mean that in the cyclic passage of time, those that have not experienced war, want, hunger, and inhumanity simply don't know any better, and therefore have no idea they're supposed to be teaching their children the so-called social graces.

I can tell you honestly from decades of personal experience, that those with the least invariably have the strictest social code - it may be crude and archaic at times, but it is a social contract that all are expected to follow nonetheless. 

Simplified: Watch your mouth, mind your manners, show respect to elders, mothers, the infirm, and those in uniform, protect the children, and know your priorities - family, friends, then country.  When someone's house burns, you take them in and feed them.  When a neighbor's gram is ill, you help take her to hospital.  When a friend's father is hurt at work, you take them dinner every night until he's better.  When a stranger is lurking about the school and the police say 'we can't touch him', you and a few neighbors give him a dancing lesson not to be forgotten.

When you have little on the table all you have is ritual, whether that is ethnic tradition, common manners, religion, or a town meeting.  What would have been a flogging offense to our elders is now expected behavior, because no one has handed those in question a rifle and said, "The enemy is one street over, go kill them or your family will be killed" - that tends to put a fine point on it.

Sorry if I come off a bit strong on this, but I grew up with good people in a bad place, and upon leaving for the first time was amazed at how civil our simple lives were in comparison to so-called 'civilization'.

That said, there's no accounting for simple rudeness - it's universal. 

Theo

[Pike]

Missoula is almost comically polite! ("After You ... No, After You"). 

Well... until the Cat/Griz game anyway... in which case I regret to admit that my hometown (until recently) begins to act rather less-than-polite as well... 

Anyways, in regard to the overall thread, I haven't really noticed a pervasive rudeness in the places where I have lived, so much as a pervasive... lack of caring, I suppose.  Some places are better than others; as was mentioned by Birdnest, rural Montana tends to be very friendly    But even then, every place has got its jerks.

[Maj. Clive Hathaway]

Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart.  As someone who has lived long enough to see multiple generations reach adulthood, let me sum it up for you:

THEY'RE BORED AND SPOILED.

By that, I mean that in the cyclic passage of time, those that have not experienced war, want, hunger, and inhumanity simply don't know any better, and therefore have no idea they're supposed to be teaching their children the so-called social graces.

I can tell you honestly from decades of personal experience, that those with the least invariably have the strictest social code - it may be crude and archaic at times, but it is a social contract that all are expected to follow nonetheless. 

Simplified: Watch your mouth, mind your manners, show respect to elders, mothers, the infirm, and those in uniform, protect the children, and know your priorities - family, friends, then country.  When someone's house burns, you take them in and feed them.  When a neighbor's gram is ill, you help take her to hospital.  When a friend's father is hurt at work, you take them dinner every night until he's better.  When a stranger is lurking about the school and the police say 'we can't touch him', you and a few neighbors give him a dancing lesson not to be forgotten.

When you have little on the table all you have is ritual, whether that is ethnic tradition, common manners, religion, or a town meeting.  What would have been a flogging offense to our elders is now expected behavior, because no one has handed those in question a rifle and said, "The enemy is one street over, go kill them or your family will be killed" - that tends to put a fine point on it.

Sorry if I come off a bit strong on this, but I grew up with good people in a bad place, and upon leaving for the first time was amazed at how civil our simple lives were in comparison to so-called 'civilization'.

That said, there's no accounting for simple rudeness - it's universal. 

Theo

Brilliant advice, sir. "Tend your own garden", as Voltaire would say.

I agree that every generation has complained about the lack of manners and general degredation of society, but thats hindsight. Only we can change the course our future is taking and try not to repeat the mistakes of teh past. Having working in a primary school for some 5 years, i can attest to the fact that most parents today simply don't teach their children social graces. Even something as simple as 'don't cut in line" and "chew with your mouth closed". I won't even get into the rampant abuses of the honor system and the prevelence of cheating throughout the academic spectrum. Its disgusting, but all we can do is to be sure and not make the same mistake with our own brood.

[Captain]

I could certainly add my stories of rude young and old people (especially after just traveling to Anchorage  ) but I would also like to take a moment to brag about my Civil Air Patrol cadets.



These 12-18 year olds have put great effort into being polite and proper despite the rude environment that we often live in and the additional peer pressure at their age to behave like they see in the media.  On the rare occasion that they are not considerate I am not the first person to make the correction as the adult commander but rather their fellow cadets.  This is the way that they want to behave and are teaching themselves.

It is a little distressing to see how much effort it takes the younger cadets to learn common courtesies since they are often alien to them.  Most of the adults in their lives like school teachers are not useful role models.

The current behavioral theory that I am hearing from mental health folks is that overtly rude/defiant behavior arises from a combination of strong feelings of insecurity (often accompanied by trauma) and realizing that there are no real consequences for their behavior.