Manners and decency

[Jane_Faye]

I think, on the general topic of manners and decency, the love of history within this subculture really assists us in putting things in perspective (especially re: historical values dissonance and cultural relativism).
I can recall reading sources from middle-aged writers from the Georgian period that lament how unmannerly the youth of today are compared to how it used to be...and sources on the same topic from the medieval period...and again from Ancient Greece...and bloomin' any other period you care to mention!

Learning sociolinguistics was like seeing the entire phenomena of 'correct manners' in a topical microcosm. By the end of the uni course anyone trying to tell us that they were 'brought up to speak proper!' was virtually met with gales of laughter, because it's rather a silly, outdated concept. Speaking correctly is so relative that the only reason you can have for calling one form 'better English' than the other is a) some forms are mutually understood by more people or b) it's an ego boost to a speaker who feels superior for knowing the 'right' form!
And yes, I admit this did all sound like trendy liberal relativist nonsense when I first heard it too, but when you factor in the history of the English language and the daft stories behind why we consider some forms better (often it was one solitary unpopular crack-pot grammar book in the 1700's that suggested an idea on no real basis!), it makes sense. And I think some of this theory applies to 'good manners' as well

[kidkunjer]

And yes, I admit this did all sound like trendy liberal relativist nonsense when I first heard it too, but when you factor in the history of the English language and the daft stories behind why we consider some forms better (often it was one solitary unpopular crack-pot grammar book in the 1700's that suggested an idea on no real basis!), it makes sense. And I think some of this theory applies to 'good manners' as well

well, i'm a trendy liberal relativist so it all sounded great to me! 

[Herbert West]

Seeing how a lot of young people behave these days makes one wish that students were required to attend  a 'manners and etiquette' class at school.

Wishful thinking I know. Its hard enough getting parents and school boards to agree on what sort of science to teach.

Lord I'm getting old.

[Nuaie]

Seeing how a lot of young people behave these days makes one wish that public schools were required  a 'manners and etiquette' class.

Wishful thinking I know. Its hard enough getting parents and school boards to agree on what sort of science to teach.

Lord I'm getting old.

The manners I've seen in my Senior class (of which I am part of and one to blame for not trying to stop some of it) have been atrocious. I've heard stories of the other years, but have not seen quite as much. As far as manners and decency goes, everyone sees the world differently, and that can be coped with. What bothers me about so much of what I've seen in my admittedly short time here is that people don't stop to think of how other people might see things. I believe that may be part of the repeating trend of "this generation is the worst of any that has been seen"- it is hard to remember how you saw things even a year ago, so it's a bit of a decaying/recycling trend (I think?).

One person writes about how their generation is the worst yet, it's published, gets some attention, then fades. That generation grows up, begets the next, and someone their writes about it, not knowing about the previous man's work. This... hm. I guess the best way to say it is that every generation that this is mentioned in (the one after it being terrible) gets forgotten by the majority of the one that said it, and it just repeats itself. The generation it was said about grows up, most of them mature, and the cycle repeats. I just kinda put this together here, not something that's been simmering for a while though.

[von Corax]

I know, right? I mean, this generation is absolutely the worst generation since the last generation!

[Uncle Arthur]

I know, right? I mean, this generation is absolutely the worst generation since the last generation!

 But of course we far outstrip the next one! At least in our own minds. Some things never change.

[OswaldBastable]

nah I disagree, I really dont think we are imagining it

[Atterton]

Going back to the Chinese thing, remember that what constitutes good manners depends on the culture. In some places, burping while eating is a way to compliment the chef. In others spitting on a person is a way of blessing them. The notion we have of opening doors for women is from a time when doors were made of heavy oak. A country which never had oak doors had no reason to do this.

[Indigo Spire]

Going back to the Chinese thing, remember that what constitutes good manners depends on the culture. In some places, burping while eating is a way to compliment the chef. In others spitting on a person is a way of blessing them. The notion we have of opening doors for women is from a time when doors were made of heavy oak. A country which never had oak doors had no reason to do this.

Spit on me....blessing or not.....you are getting punched in the throat.   Perhaps that is poor manners on my part   

[Kathelyne]

I haven't read through this thread but I don't believe that the "young generation have no manners". Sure, they may have DIFFERENT manners, each generation has, and sure there are horrible rude young people, but it's not because of their generation. Rude people are rude.
I work in retail and catch public transport every day. The rudest demographic is middle aged women. My mother, a middle aged woman, agrees with me. Ten years in retail and not once have I had to deal with a rude young person, but I have my fair shair of horror stories, many of which involce a horrified youngster sayins "MUM! You're being rude! Oh my God I cann't believe you just said that!" Whereupon many of the older generation might shake their head at the youngster for not respecting their parents or for saying things they would never had said. They would have certinly never have returned to the shop later on their own to say "I'm sorry my mum was such a b**ch, you did nothing wrong she's had had a really sh**ty day.." That's one example of maners changing!
Young people are far more likely to give up their seat on a bus or train, but if they don't can anyone blame them if they've never seen their parents do it? Interestingly it's often the more "rebellious" looking youngsters (you know, those with chains and studs and unnatural hair etc) that seem to give up their seats more often than the other sort.

Yes, there are a lot of young people doing bad things. Young people have always done bad things. Maybe they are lacking the life experience to deal with their situation-- whatever that may be, Maybe they are just bad and always will be. Maybe they will grow up and turn into decent people or maybe they'll soend years in and out of jail. Who knows. All I know is that when we put on a HUGE formal dinner party on the weekend we had a 12 year old girl come over the day before to help cook rather than staying at home playing with her new ipad, and two boys in their late teens/early 20s come on the night to help an older (but still young!) lady in the kitchen but also to help serve.  All the guests were instructed not to thank the wait-staff (we did thank them before and after, just not during the meal) as we were trying to re-create  a historical dinner and that wasn't done then! We also asked people not to offer to help in the kitchen. Everyone at the party (aged 18-55) found this very hard, but the older generation commented that their parents wouldn't have found it difficult not to help in the kitchen as that wasn't done back in their day.

[Indigo Spire]

I totally agree with That middle aged women part, just like you I have delt with some winners.
Men are far FAR more mannerly than women and nowhere near as loud or hostile.
As a women, I can say this about my own sex......some of us are just down right nasty and simply not satisfied unless we make a scene!

[kidkunjer]

I totally agree with That middle aged women part, just like you I have delt with some winners.
Men are far FAR more mannerly than women and nowhere near as loud or hostile.
As a women, I can say this about my own sex......some of us are just down right nasty and simply not satisfied unless we make a scene!

ha ha! brilliant. I think my female supremacist mother is about to swim across the Atlantic to fight you.

[Herbert West]

Its a good point. We worry about children when there are plenty of adults (including politicians, entertainers, radio hosts, sports stars) who need to be taught a few lessons in how to behave in a civilized manner.

[Indigo Spire]

I totally agree with That middle aged women part, just like you I have delt with some winners.
Men are far FAR more mannerly than women and nowhere near as loud or hostile.
As a women, I can say this about my own sex......some of us are just down right nasty and simply not satisfied unless we make a scene!

ha ha! brilliant. I think my female supremacist mother is about to swim across the Atlantic to fight you.

Send her.....before we rumble I want to show her a few things  .  One time I was in this bar with friends and I needed to use the facilities.  The ladies room was temporarily unavailable, my boyfriend checked the men's room and then waited outside the door while myself an another girlfriend used their facilities.  The men's room was cleaner than the women's room.  I am not the only woman who has noticed this phenomena in public places.  I want to show this to your mom before we go Kill Bill Vol 1 & 2 on each other. 

[kidkunjer]

The men's room was cleaner than the women's room.

that was certainly the case in my secondary school...

and at university i noticed that male-only flats were often kept cleaner than their female counterparts although I'm not sure why as in my mixed flat to be honest the girls did most of the cleaning (for shame  )

[andrew craven]

 Its unfair to generalise the young generation as indecent with manners....speaking as a shop keeper, I have experienced the most graceous manners with the younger generation than most older folks. Its interesting how such a delusional perspective on todays society leads to an attack on the youngens. And its a delusion to think that everyone were all graceous and mannerly in the past such as the Victorian era that steampunk takes for granted. This is utter nonsense. Even the upper class showed ill manners....it went hand in hand has it does today. This delusion of utopia would never work if one would persue this absolutism. "Good and Evil, there is never one without the other.." etc.

[Daedalus Forge]

Its unfair to generalise the young generation as indecent with manners....speaking as a shop keeper, I have experienced the most graceous manners with the younger generation than most older folks. Its interesting how such a delusional perspective on todays society leads to an attack on the youngens. And its a delusion to think that everyone were all graceous and mannerly in the past such as the Victorian era that steampunk takes for granted. This is utter nonsense. Even the upper class showed ill manners....it went hand in hand has it does today. This delusion of utopia would never work if one would persue this absolutism. "Good and Evil, there is never one without the other.." etc.

Whilst not being so naive as to believe that there has ever been an age and generation that hasn't suffered the rude, the ill mannered, the uncouth, the impolite, the ignorant, the unsavoury, and the loutish; to deny that there is not, presently, in the UK, at least, a proliferation of listless, feckless, brainless, jobless, hopeless, futureless, graceless, evolutionary throwback pond-life is 'head in the sand burying' of the worst sort.  I know this because I am a police officer, and, over the years,  I have seen morality, decency, and responsibility undermined and replaced with excuses, handouts, and 'get out of jail free cards': "Oh, it's not their fault, they've had a tough upbringing".  Well so did I, but I don't use it as an excuse for being an idiot.  This deplorable, 'bleeding heart' approach, combined with an unwillingness to punish 'bad behaviour' has created whole generations for whom there are no consequences: they know that if, for example, they were to smash up a telephone box, wait for the police to arrive, get themselves arrested, and even admit to the offence, ultimately nothing will happen: they will go unpunished; and even if they were punished it would amount to only a very small fine, paid in very small instalments (otherwise, on their dole money, it would make life uncomfortable.  Surely the point?).  One only has to look at the London riots of 2011 for proof: there was no political agenda, no furtherance of any grand philanthropic cause to legitamise it, it was simply, as one commentator so eloquently put it, "shopping with violence".  And any who disagree would do well to meditate on this: just 40 years ago, it was common practice to always leave your doors unlocked, even if you weren't in the house; would you do that now?

There is much truth in the saying, "when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you"; well, my job affords me ample opportunity to gaze into the abyss.  Steampunk is my diversion, and a fine, pleasant, and enjoyable diversion it is, too.

[Capt. Dirigible]

Whilst not being so naive as to believe that there has ever been an age and generation that hasn't suffered the rude, the ill mannered, the uncouth, the impolite, the ignorant, the unsavoury, and the loutish; to deny that there is not, presently, in the UK, at least, a proliferation of listless, feckless, brainless, jobless, hopeless, futureless, graceless, evolutionary throwback pond-life is 'head in the sand burying' of the worst sort.  I know this because I am a police officer, and, over the years,  I have seen morality, decency, and responsibility undermined and replaced with excuses, handouts, and 'get out of jail free cards': "Oh, it's not their fault, they've had a tough upbringing".  Well so did I, but I don't use it as an excuse for being an idiot.  This deplorable, 'bleeding heart' approach, combined with an unwillingness to punish 'bad behaviour' has created whole generations for whom there are no consequences: they know that if, for example, they were to smash up a telephone box, wait for the police to arrive, get themselves arrested, and even admit to the offence, ultimately nothing will happen: they will go unpunished; and even if they were punished it would amount to only a very small fine, paid in very small instalments (otherwise, on their dole money, it would make life uncomfortable.  Surely the point?).  One only has to look at the London riots of 2011 for proof: there was no political agenda, no furtherance of any grand philanthropic cause to legitamise it, it was simply, as one commentator so eloquently put it, "shopping with violence".  And any who disagree would do well to meditate on this: just 40 years ago, it was common practice to always leave your doors unlocked, even if you weren't in the house; would you do that now?

There is much truth in the saying, "when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you"; well, my job affords me ample opportunity to gaze into the abyss.  Steampunk is my diversion, and a fine, pleasant, and enjoyable diversion it is, too.

[Maxwell B. Cooper]

I agree completely, I have often been appalled by the senseless behaviour and the lack of punishment to go with it. If I had done even some of the things people get away with, my father would have 'slapped me purple' and quite rightly too.

[Arabella Periscope]

Kindness is at the heart of manners and decency, and when there is an emergency it is suddenly there in frightening tattooed pirates, in middle-aged ladies, children, businessmen, homeless people, aristocrats, strangers, criminals, (yes, I speak from experience) and I think especially in Steampunk people.  And, of course, the reverses are true.  I like to read about disasters like the Titanic and the Blitz for this reason.

[OswaldBastable]

Its unfair to generalise the young generation as indecent with manners....speaking as a shop keeper, I have experienced the most graceous manners with the younger generation than most older folks. Its interesting how such a delusional perspective on todays society leads to an attack on the youngens. And its a delusion to think that everyone were all graceous and mannerly in the past such as the Victorian era that steampunk takes for granted. This is utter nonsense. Even the upper class showed ill manners....it went hand in hand has it does today. This delusion of utopia would never work if one would persue this absolutism. "Good and Evil, there is never one without the other.." etc.

Whilst not being so naive as to believe that there has ever been an age and generation that hasn't suffered the rude, the ill mannered, the uncouth, the impolite, the ignorant, the unsavoury, and the loutish; to deny that there is not, presently, in the UK, at least, a proliferation of listless, feckless, brainless, jobless, hopeless, futureless, graceless, evolutionary throwback pond-life is 'head in the sand burying' of the worst sort.  I know this because I am a police officer, and, over the years,  I have seen morality, decency, and responsibility undermined and replaced with excuses, handouts, and 'get out of jail free cards': "Oh, it's not their fault, they've had a tough upbringing".  Well so did I, but I don't use it as an excuse for being an idiot.  This deplorable, 'bleeding heart' approach, combined with an unwillingness to punish 'bad behaviour' has created whole generations for whom there are no consequences: they know that if, for example, they were to smash up a telephone box, wait for the police to arrive, get themselves arrested, and even admit to the offence, ultimately nothing will happen: they will go unpunished; and even if they were punished it would amount to only a very small fine, paid in very small instalments (otherwise, on their dole money, it would make life uncomfortable.  Surely the point?).  One only has to look at the London riots of 2011 for proof: there was no political agenda, no furtherance of any grand philanthropic cause to legitamise it, it was simply, as one commentator so eloquently put it, "shopping with violence".  And any who disagree would do well to meditate on this: just 40 years ago, it was common practice to always leave your doors unlocked, even if you weren't in the house; would you do that now?

There is much truth in the saying, "when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you"; well, my job affords me ample opportunity to gaze into the abyss.  Steampunk is my diversion, and a fine, pleasant, and enjoyable diversion it is, too.

well said that man

[D.Oakes]

Its unfair to generalise the young generation as indecent with manners....speaking as a shop keeper, I have experienced the most graceous manners with the younger generation than most older folks. Its interesting how such a delusional perspective on todays society leads to an attack on the youngens. And its a delusion to think that everyone were all graceous and mannerly in the past such as the Victorian era that steampunk takes for granted. This is utter nonsense. Even the upper class showed ill manners....it went hand in hand has it does today. This delusion of utopia would never work if one would persue this absolutism. "Good and Evil, there is never one without the other.." etc.

Whilst not being so naive as to believe that there has ever been an age and generation that hasn't suffered the rude, the ill mannered, the uncouth, the impolite, the ignorant, the unsavoury, and the loutish; to deny that there is not, presently, in the UK, at least, a proliferation of listless, feckless, brainless, jobless, hopeless, futureless, graceless, evolutionary throwback pond-life is 'head in the sand burying' of the worst sort.  I know this because I am a police officer, and, over the years,  I have seen morality, decency, and responsibility undermined and replaced with excuses, handouts, and 'get out of jail free cards': "Oh, it's not their fault, they've had a tough upbringing".  Well so did I, but I don't use it as an excuse for being an idiot.  This deplorable, 'bleeding heart' approach, combined with an unwillingness to punish 'bad behaviour' has created whole generations for whom there are no consequences: they know that if, for example, they were to smash up a telephone box, wait for the police to arrive, get themselves arrested, and even admit to the offence, ultimately nothing will happen: they will go unpunished; and even if they were punished it would amount to only a very small fine, paid in very small instalments (otherwise, on their dole money, it would make life uncomfortable.  Surely the point?).  One only has to look at the London riots of 2011 for proof: there was no political agenda, no furtherance of any grand philanthropic cause to legitamise it, it was simply, as one commentator so eloquently put it, "shopping with violence".  And any who disagree would do well to meditate on this: just 40 years ago, it was common practice to always leave your doors unlocked, even if you weren't in the house; would you do that now?

There is much truth in the saying, "when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you"; well, my job affords me ample opportunity to gaze into the abyss.  Steampunk is my diversion, and a fine, pleasant, and enjoyable diversion it is, too.

Okay, I would argue that there are ways politically/economically the change the conditions to change the factors which lead to the mentality....HOWEVER.....being jobless for a time and being young and being stereotyped in with these sort of hoodlums, I can say a lot of the behavior comes from the person and not the situation.  Being jobless and having a lot of time on my hands, I spent much of the time reading and studying various things from philosophy to sociology to science, and some history that I had not really taken an interest in prior.  Many young people are taught or rather not taught at all by the older generations to be selfish and not care an ounce about what happens to the community.  It can only be expected that this sort of behavior eventually builds up into an unstoppable monster.  The downside is that the sane voices are drowned out by lazy philistines.  There is a certain "lay-down-and-take-it" mentality among our elders which many interpret as weakness.  Instead of searching for ways to constructively change it, a lot of people either give up or having not cared an ounce to begin with, take the apathetic attitude to an extreme which involves no respect for anyone or anything.  Now with many of these kids becoming parents, one has to wonder with horror what sort of things will happen next.  I found myself rebelling against my mother by listening to old jazz and classical, but sadly I believe that in this culture of "one-upping" the next generation will be far worse unless things change.