Gothwerk - Steampunk crap at Party City!!!

[Clym Angus]

but they did have a pair of round "John Lennon-y" glasses with light green lenses on sale for $1.99.  Just perfect for attaching mesh tea strainer orbs to!  Cheap, tasteful mod item for the win!

Ok I'm refining my view;
1) I don't have anything against cheap stuff.
2) I dislike sales spiel when its so wrong as to be insulting.
3) I understand that some people have ten thumbs when it comes to fabrication (I personally can't play a round of tennis to save my life). Still I would hate to see ANYONE get ripped off when for a similar amount of money they can go to a bespoke maker, get a better product and keep the money "in the family."
4) If you have creative leanings and you spot a good deal in one of these shops then mine away! A diamond in a dumpster is still a diamond.

There might be an opening for a steampunk mining shop which gets cheap but useful stuff. Lenses, armatures, plating, rods, mass cast cogs etc etc etc. It doesn't profess to be the singularity around which Steampunk revolves, just a simple and humble provider of penny dreadfuls, shilling shockers and first class nic-naks and bricka-brak.

[Camillia du Chine]

but they did have a pair of round "John Lennon-y" glasses with light green lenses on sale for $1.99.  Just perfect for attaching mesh tea strainer orbs to!  Cheap, tasteful mod item for the win!

Ok I'm refining my view;
1) I don't have anything against cheap stuff.
2) I dislike sales spiel when its so wrong as to be insulting.
3) I understand that some people have ten thumbs when it comes to fabrication (I personally can't play a round of tennis to save my life). Still I would hate to see ANYONE get ripped off when for a similar amount of money they can go to a bespoke maker, get a better product and keep the money "in the family."
4) If you have creative leanings and you spot a good deal in one of these shops then mine away! A diamond in a dumpster is still a diamond.

There might be an opening for a steampunk mining shop which gets cheap but useful stuff. Lenses, armatures, plating, rods, mass cast cogs etc etc etc. It doesn't profess to be the singularity around which Steampunk revolves, just a simple and humble provider of penny dreadfuls, shilling shockers and first class nic-naks and bricka-brak.

Do you remember good ol' hardware stores with bins of odds n ends and shelves of unusual electrical things - all with a light coating of dust and insufficient lighting?  I miss those treasure troves and your description of the 'mining shop' seems so much like that!

[Clym Angus]

Hardware stores, yes a dying breed. It would appear that the American brethren are also being slowly separated from ready access to raw materials. May I be so bold as to postulate that the lust for manufactured products, has had the detrimental effect of separating makers from the basic ingredients of their craft. If it wasn't for the internet I would have shut up shop chainmaille wise years ago. But it's not just the weird and bizarre; moulding goods, woodworking tools, (good quality hard wood for that matter) metals (unless your blessed with being near a good model shop) it's all getting slowly more and more difficult to source supply.

And there is so much plastic....

Do you remember good ol' hardware stores with bins of odds n ends and shelves of unusual electrical things - all with a light coating of dust and insufficient lighting?  I miss those treasure troves and your description of the 'mining shop' seems so much like that!

[bicyclebuilder]

That is also the downsight of today's market. Because there is so much plastic crap for sale (and obviously sold to, otherwise they wouldn't sell it), there is next to no market for tinkerers like us. Consumation comes before selfmade. This goes for everything nowadays. Nobody is making things, everything is pre-made so why bother making. That is the way consumers and manufacturers think.

For instance: Who's freezing there own cut vegitables these days? I went to the weekly market last saturday and bought for 20 euro's, 4 full bags of vegitables. Went home, cut and washed it and sealed it in plastic bags. Nobody does that, but it saves a lot of money. The thing is, it is easier to buy pre-cut-washed-sealed vegitables at the supermarket. More easier is to buy frosen dinners, so you don't have to make a meal. Eaven more easier is to just call a pizzaplace and let them bring the food to you.

I don't say it's a bad thing, but in this time it is better to save a few bucks (or a lot of money) than to have it the easy way. The price of a called in meal is not based on the ingredients and labour, but is based on "how much is it worth for the buyer". Making a meal costs time, precious time in witch you could be working instead. So buying a called in meal costs more, but in the end you gain precious time.

This also goes for crappy steampunk stuff. It costs relativly not all that much (Remember working in stead of tinkering). Because it looks mediocre and is plastic, it is disposable. So after your done with the item you can just throw it away, because you don't have emotional attachemets to it. After you throw it away, it gives the opportunity to buy another item, and another, and another.

I don't agree with all of this, but that is the way it works nowadays. Luckyly not everybody thinks this way and because of the current market and enviroment, more and more people are making the change to a cheaper but better lifestyle.

[Clym Angus]

I don't agree with all of this, but that is the way it works nowadays. Luckyly not everybody thinks this way and because of the current market and enviroment, more and more people are making the change to a cheaper but better lifestyle.

Understandable but the laws of nature have not changed, however centralised manufacturing becomes; they still rely on an efficient delivery system. Without that the rules change. I have personally met many people who think I'm a fool for knowing what I know. Then I look at what they know and the whole bang shoot DEPENDS on a system that by its nature is not the status quo.

What is a programmer? Without the power to supply the machine?
What is a distributor? Without the material to distribute?

I would (like you) counter the "but that is the way it works nowadays." attitude; any SANE man knows we stand on a pedestal. One from which it is easy to fall. So maybe to others we appear to be wasting time. Me? I'm into insurance.  We are pilgrims in an unholy land; where we are de-skilled to insure future profit. To not know, is unfortunate and easily remedied with the proper investment. To not wish to know however; is a grave sin that will lead inexorably to ruin.

Sure this sounds a bit militant, but logically it makes perfect economic sense. If your want to sell flint blades to the caveman, then don't allow him near to flint for a generation or two before you do. Kill the skill, create the demand.

Sorry, NOT HAPPENING.

[Xenos]

<Snip>
Sure this sounds a bit militant, but logically it makes perfect economic sense. If your want to sell flint blades to the caveman, then don't allow him near to flint for a generation or two before you do. Kill the skill, create the demand.
Sorry, NOT HAPPENING.

This is just one of many reasons my bookshelves are lined with DIY books, and my computer is overburdened with various instructions (from how to make a potatogun, all the way to how to build a turn-key house).  I am guilty of using takeout for food more oft than not (just because I have precious little time as it is-why do you think I'm only on here in the wee hours of the morning? ), but I am also more than capable of growing, canning/dehydrating/smoking/freezing my own meats and veggies (unfortunatly, due to medical issues, I was unable to garden this season...  *le sigh*).  I'm also learning brain tanning for my deerhides (yes, I am an avid hunter-not for trophies, but for the MEAT.  I only hunt as a means to provide food for my family.  The skins are usually sold, but now that I'm learning tanning...  )

I will not conform to the "You need not worry about making/doing/etc your own this/that/theother, we'll take care of it for you!" mindset.  I was born into a poor family, and my da's motto was "If a man does not work, neither let him eat."

Sorry about that, it just boils me that, unfortunatly, this IS the casae with the world today!  My best friend is the same age as me, grew up not a half hour away...  He does not know how to properly use power tools (or hand tools, for tha tmatter!).  Granted, I've never met anyone that knows more about firearms, firearm safty, and NC hunting regulations, so I guess it's all in what you took time to learn...  It's just, I dunno, the way I grew up, I had to know that stuff, ya know?  Kids today, they've got it way to easy.

...

......

I really need to start sleeping before I post...  I end up going on long rants (that may or may not be relevant in any way, shape or form.

[LizerSparkes]

You make a valid point though. I admit, I have never had the opportunity to do a lot of things, because I'm, and I use this term very loosely, 'city folk'. I have never hunted for food, having grown up always having food available.  I would love to go bow hunting someday, but fat chance of that happening anytime soon.  I know basic hand tool usage, as well as some power tool usage, and I can cook mostly from scratch, given time and the right ingredients.  I know how to repair clothing for the most part, and I know and use skills that are staring to die out thanks to commercialism and mass consumerism.  I'm only 24, but I know people who do not know how to fix a fallen hem, or even how to hem pants.  I knit, and it frustrates me when people go "Can you knit something for me?" then balk at my "I can, if you can pay $10 an hour, plus the cost of materials" comment... I don't know many people who knit in my area, and for people to assume that I can knit them something for $20 or less, when most projects I get asked about are larger ones that would take at least that much in yarn to make... And I'm a bit of a slow knitter. I also do not have time to just drop everything else and work on commissions.....


and it seems I'm the one to get slightly off-tangent this time....

[Kelley]

I don't begrudge any one person not knowing or being capable of a certain skill.

Humans have been creating societies for many, many years - from villages to metropolises. Even back in the days of hunting and gathering, not every individual was capable of performing every task that was necessary for the group to survive. We're social creatures and tend to use group work structures to function. Present day is still the same, these "city folk" wouldn't make it very long if they weren't providing a skill that someone was willing to trade for.

Perhaps they'll be in big trouble when society collapses before their lives naturally end. Perhaps. But I think it's a fair risk to take that human society will not all of a sudden be plunged back into the very dark ages.

Just defending society, since it gives us nice things like the Internet (brought to us by those who probably could not filet a fish if asked). 

- Someone who can fish, cook, farm, sew, make roman sandals, gut a deer, and build a computer.

I can't knit for anything, though. 



People can be a bit disconnected and unaware of things, but I find they're generally amenable to learning and understanding.

[Xenos]

<snip>
People can be a bit disconnected and unaware of things, but I find they're generally amenable to learning and understanding.

See, I find most people ignorant know-it-alls...  But then again, I've pretty much lost faith in humanity as it is!  

I keed, I keed!  You are quite right, too.  Not everyone can do everything-nor should they have to!  That was not what I was driving at.  I do, however, believe that everyone should learn the basics of providing food for themselves (other than the store/drive-thru/steak house/etc).  Mostly because I'm paranoid as all getout, and believe that within my lifetime, the world as we know it will end.  Not saying 2012, just saying that things are headed for a change, and food might be hard to come by (as might liquor...  Good thang I's know all 'bout them fancy shtill thangs!-Was raised in the south).

...

I also cannot knit.  I can sew, and what's more, it's a straight line!...  I do, however, have the tendancy to stich back over whatever I do and make it look like the traditional "frankenstine" stiching...  Call it my signature or whatever.

[Clym Angus]

A couple of things:

I really need to start sleeping before I post...  I end up going on long rants (that may or may not be relevant in any way, shape or form.

Xenos, hopped up on coffee first thing in the morning or 3 key presses away from exhaustion at the end of the night your still making a lot of sense. Your friend, sounds like a specialist (and I believe that Kelly touched on this too) society has always had specialists, farming necessitated key skilling and resulted in more time being freed up generally for trivial things like pyramids and sky centric naval gazing. I would never decry the need for specialisation, but the blunting of the explorers spirit through trivial profit centred misdirection. That does annoy me.

The problem as I see it is one of evolution which dictates; if a new environment is created in which life can exist and there is a connecting route to it from an existing populated environment; it will spread. Taken hand in hand with; adaptations that serve little or no purpose tend to be diminished over time. Then these two act in tandem to create an interesting quandary in relation to modern Western society;

Now I don't really want to get into a deep conversation regarding the eccentricities of false environment evolution (it's a touchy subject) so I'll phrase this as a number of questions;

Is modern society creating new environments that humans CAN successfully exist in?
If so does this new environment actively or passively inhibit those who adapt to it from a more basic (harsher) environment?
Is this a good thing?

When you take basic survival out to the equation, you allow "other rules" into any partially or mostly reality separated environment (if you agree to their existence), that can directly effect social evolution (and physical evolution if the "rule" is kept up long enough). Take an outlandish example; religious sects; ritual dictates strange behaviour for the promise of future reward. The fact the same strange behaviour has been done since year dot, only acts to increase its apparent validity.

As long as these "little extras" don't compromise basic survival too drastically (eg everyone can still get on with the day job) then your society is fine. Too much mumbo-jumbo and your going to hit the skids. I personally take these possibilities rather coldly, the only way to know a frivolous rule from a serious one is to explore, experiment and enquire.

It is my heart felt belief that; Man and woman alike are empowered and strengthened through knowledge and learning. Long may it continue.

This is a personal bugbear of mine I'm sorry if I've been "carrying on".

[Sir Richmond]

Kids today, they've got it way to easy.

You know, it's funny, because while I can't disagree that never before have kids been more coddled, more babied, or more surrounded by sterilized plastic existences, I would also say that kids have never had it harder. I don't say this because I think it's a much harder social existence or because (if you believe what the American media wants you to believe) children are being bullied so much more these days. I say this because with all of the coddling so many children are not even learning how to grow up. They're growing up immature, arrogant, self-centered people who think everything revolves around them and that they don't need to learn anything because society will always take care of them and nothing could ever go wrong. Honestly I think things like the current economic crisis is good for young people because they learn that things will go wrong and they're not always going to have parents there to take care of them and that they are going to have to learn to do it themselves.

Grr overprotective parenting. Let them scrape their knees, climb trees, spoil their dinner once in a while, touch frogs and snakes, whittle a stick, etc.

I don't have a problem with kids being raised not knowing how to do everything, but if everyone taught their kids how to be resourceful I think the world would be a better place.

[Clym Angus]

You know, it's funny, because while I can't disagree that never before have kids been more coddled, more babied, or more surrounded by sterilized plastic existences, I would also say that kids have never had it harder. I don't say this because I think it's a much harder social existence or because (if you believe what the American media wants you to believe) children are being bullied so much more these days. I say this because with all of the coddling so many children are not even learning how to grow up. They're growing up immature, arrogant, self-centered people who think everything revolves around them and that they don't need to learn anything because society will always take care of them and nothing could ever go wrong. Honestly I think things like the current economic crisis is good for young people because they learn that things will go wrong and they're not always going to have parents there to take care of them and that they are going to have to learn to do it themselves.

Grr overprotective parenting. Let them scrape their knees, climb trees, spoil their dinner once in a while, touch frogs and snakes, whittle a stick, etc.

I don't have a problem with kids being raised not knowing how to do everything, but if everyone taught their kids how to be resourceful I think the world would be a better place.

"Many lessons on this earth, have no words"

I whole heartedly agree.

[Orcon Windar]

 On sort of the same line as this topic, is the Elope company. I have met a few steampunks who absolutely despise their products, and tend to insult the honor of those who wear them. I myself own quite a few Elope products, and find the to be a well made, inexpensive alternative to the $100 dollar "real" top hats you see in fancy costume stores. Not that I have any thing against these costume stores, in fact I quite like them, it's just that not all of us can afford these items.  Thoughts and opinions?

[SoulScream]

Disclaimer: 9 pages of topic is hefty internet reading, so read everything on the first page and skimmed through the other 8 pages.

My own 2 cents boils down to this: Mass-produced "steampunk" items from this "gothwerks" and Lip Service are absolute shit. For starters, the stuff I have seen (yes, with my eyes, they sell it at the local cookie-cutter goth shop.) has been made of material that isn't even good and wont be durable enough to stand the tests of time (or Canadian weather). Secondly, it is all far too over-priced. for the same amount or less, one could get materials to make something just as good if not better (in design and material) or, if you are like me and don't know how to sew with a machine, hire the services of a seamstress/seamster. OR! Even cheaper, visit the local thrift and value stores for bits and pieces and clothing items that can be modified with a few stitches and add-ons. And thirdly, with this genre there is a heavy emphasis on do-it-yourself and making/moding things yourself (or likewise, handmade by an artisan, and NOT mass-produced) and it is so WONDERFUL being part of a sub-culture in which no 2 people will ever be dressed in the exact same thing. Unlike some of the local goth clubs, in which on any given night there will be at least 3 guys with the exact same Lip Service long black coat. You know the one I am talking about. Mass-producing this crap just takes away from one of the things that really MAKES steampunk.

But that's just my opinion. *shrug*

[Stella Gaslight]

On sort of the same line as this topic, is the Elope company. I have met a few steampunks who absolutely despise their products, and tend to insult the honor of those who wear them. I myself own quite a few Elope products, and find the to be a well made, inexpensive alternative to the $100 dollar "real" top hats you see in fancy costume stores. Not that I have any thing against these costume stores, in fact I quite like them, it's just that not all of us can afford these items.  Thoughts and opinions?

Elope is pretty good for hats and glasses.  Their goggels are silly but most mass produced plastic goggels are.  We carry their stuff at the costume shop I work at and their captain jack hat has been rented at least 100 times over the last five years and it is still in near perfect condition.  Their hats may not be fashion grade but they are damned good for costume hats.  I want the little brown ladies one but I must try it in first because I have a little head and it makes smaller hats strangely out of scale sometimes.

[Mr. Bertram A. Lisney]

I just...don't...get it. 

Except for this!  This I like.
http://www.partycity.com/product/urban+vampire+wig.do?sortby=ourPicks&pp=20&size=all

Was it from the Munsters?  I can't remember...But I like it.

I love how whoever is writing the descriptions for these baubles seems just as bewildered as I as to their function. 

Save for the poorness of construction, I'm not entirely opposed to such things being out there.  I just...don't get the "goth" thing.  But, I suppose if they tinkered more, perhaps they'd be a wee bit less moody.

[bicyclebuilder]

Didn't anyone ever figured this out?
Overall Steampunkers like to make their own stuff. Especially goggles.
Why isn't there a modulated version of goggles for sale? A couple of stock goggleframes in different colours and materials, with standard connections on witch you can screw on different shaped glasscovers or straps. Add-ons like fake gears, magnifying glasses, diafragma's. All interchangeble on the stock goggleframes.

This is also done with beachcruiser bikes. A couple of standard bikes, modifiable by different wheels, handlebars, lights, fenders.

[Xenos]

Didn't anyone ever figured this out?
Overall Steampunkers like to make their own stuff. Especially goggles.
Why isn't there a modulated version of goggles for sale? A couple of stock goggleframes in different colours and materials, with standard connections on witch you can screw on different shaped glasscovers or straps. Add-ons like fake gears, magnifying glasses, diafragma's. All interchangeble on the stock goggleframes.

This is also done with beachcruiser bikes. A couple of standard bikes, modifiable by different wheels, handlebars, lights, fenders.

To quote my high school guidance counselor:  "Find a need, fill it."   meaning, you've seen what needs to be done, now take that idea and market it!    I know that I PERSONALLY would not mind a "build-your-own-goggle" package (hell, it'd save me the time I can ill-afford to spare making my own from scratch!).

Dont get me wrong, I really ENJOY making my own stuff, I just really do not have the spare time in alot of cases...  Nor the fundage, really.

But yes, you're quite right, that's what SHOULD happen.  Only, for the love of all things sacred, make it look DECENT, not CHEAP/CHEEZY... 

Just sayin'.

[Ophiucha]

What is the problem here? The products themselves, or that steampunk is gaining mainstream recognition?

The products themselves, I have no real problem with. They are typical party city wares. Surely no steampunk would wear them, but that isn't what dress up and Halloween is about, is it? Most Halloween costumes are pretty shite, and if you're just grabbing a costume to wear for a single day in a single year, then why buy anything better? I'm sure goths don't go out and get $2 white makeup and 'sexy witch' outfits when they have far better things in their own bedrooms. Similarly, if a steampunk wants to dress up in steampunk garb for Halloween (an oddity, in my opinion; I dress up as witches and vampires because I don't do that otherwise), then you'd wear your own steampunk gear. You can't really blame people who don't want to/don't have the time to suddenly buy a leather corset, a bustle skirt, and some aviator goggles for a once-a-year sort of thing. They might have just gotten invited to their boyfriend's work party and thought it looked cute. Nothing at Party City is meant to last you more than a day, but it gives you a day of fun. I always loved getting bubble wands and lip balm princess jewelry when I was a little girl, even if I wouldn't touch it after my birthday.

It's hard to think of, perhaps, from our perspective... but not everyone likes dressing up. Not everyone wants to buy an outfit that they'll have forever. Sometimes you get invited to a Christmas party and find yourself with nothing red nor green and have to go buy a jacket to seem seasonal. Will you wear it again? Probably not. So get it cheap and sell it back, or throw it in a used store, or just bin it. This isn't some dreadful issue of modern society. I somehow doubt the aristocracy of the Victorian times was opposed to the "but I wore that for my last portrait" mentality. It's just practicality. You find yourself suddenly in need of a specific item that you'll never use again. Let's see how little we can waste on this.

Regarding the mainstream aspect... well, there are dozens of other threads about that.

[bicyclebuilder]

I guess it's a couple of things.
1) The crapy plastic appearance of the items versus the price.
2) The 'who would want to buy this' question.
3) Not the mainstreaming of steampunk, but the way the items are branded. Steampunk/Goth/Vampire/Pirate/Rave/Techno/.... All thrown on a big pile like it's only one genre. The genre's are all based on individuality and should be treated that way.

I've metioned before: there must be a market for these items, otherwise they wouldn't be sold. Also the demand of these items are that high, that the salesmen can sell at a high price. Much higher than the costs to make it.

Looking it from a positive angle. Buying a "cheap" Party City one-in-a-million Steampunk suit could be a step towards selfmade steampunk. Or the search for better quality items. You've got to start somewhere, right?

[Torvald_Faust]

As always, I must admit I'm amazed by how worked up this forum can get about things like these. How hard is it to simply ignore these things and achieve not becoming 'enraged' at all?

For what it is worth, I, personally, give things like these not two seconds thought - whatever the genre. I do not see why I would scoff at someone/something who is simply trying to make a buck.

[akumabito]

Here is why:

[ValancyJane]

Didn't anyone ever figured this out?
Overall Steampunkers like to make their own stuff. Especially goggles.
Why isn't there a modulated version of goggles for sale? A couple of stock goggleframes in different colours and materials, with standard connections on witch you can screw on different shaped glasscovers or straps. Add-ons like fake gears, magnifying glasses, diafragma's. All interchangeble on the stock goggleframes.

This is also done with beachcruiser bikes. A couple of standard bikes, modifiable by different wheels, handlebars, lights, fenders.

Try NeverWas on etsy.  In addition to ready-made goggles, they sell lens and other bits that can be used to modify their or any other standard welding goggle.

[Torvald_Faust]

Here is why:

Very well put, sir, very well put

[bicyclebuilder]

Didn't anyone ever figured this out?
Overall Steampunkers like to make their own stuff. Especially goggles.
Why isn't there a modulated version of goggles for sale? A couple of stock goggleframes in different colours and materials, with standard connections on witch you can screw on different shaped glasscovers or straps. Add-ons like fake gears, magnifying glasses, diafragma's. All interchangeble on the stock goggleframes.

This is also done with beachcruiser bikes. A couple of standard bikes, modifiable by different wheels, handlebars, lights, fenders.

Try NeverWas on etsy.  In addition to ready-made goggles, they sell lens and other bits that can be used to modify their or any other standard welding goggle.

That's sort of what I'm talking about. But what is shown on Etsy is pre-maid goggles and additional lenses. I've seen goggles with a range of lenses, but you would still have a standard goggle.
What I mean is a range of seperate add-ons and a couple of different standard goggles. Sold as a starter-package and seperate add-ons, so you can make your own creation. Standard welding goggles could be a good base to start from. Add-ons could be the sides of the goggles, the part that screws on the lenses, leather straps. You know what, I'll draw a couple of things out on a peice of paper and start a new topic.