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Author Topic: Research Question on Airships/Dirigibles  (Read 892 times)
caboose
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« on: August 16, 2010, 09:50:48 pm »

Hello all!

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to post this question, but as it's for the novella I'm working on I went with textual. I have a few questions about airships/dirigibles because one of my main characters is traveling via air ship from England to the U.S.

I've set the port as Philadelphia as I believe that it would be the largest in the area in the time period I'm working with.

My main question is how would someone board and depart an air ship? Does it land on the ground? Do they have some sort of 'gangplank' to get the people up there? What would they do with luggage/cargo?

In my story, the air ship in question is a passenger ship and the main character is a lady.

Any suggestions or answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Caboose
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Professor Veritas
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 11:02:46 pm »

Found this article online while reading about airships.  It's an interesting take on a classic airship journey over the Atlantic.
Enjoy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/sky-cruise-hindenburg.html

Regards,
Prof. Veritas
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arcwelder
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 11:30:52 pm »

A lot of it would proceeds much as with a modern airliner or cruise ship. The same practicalities are in play.

Yes it lands on the ground - all you really need is a large open area, but sites in regular use would be developed similar to a modern airstrip since there would need to be room to load and unload cargo, refuel, conduct maintenance, and so forth. The key difference would be no need for a runway.

It would also be possible to dock on top of a building much as a helicopter, but this wouldn't be a good idea for a ship carrying much in the way of cargo or passengers. Nor would it be something you would use more than occasionally with heavier / larger ships - the area they land in needs to be capable of sustaining their full mass in the event that a maintenance routine doesn't allow them to be maintained at neutral buoyancy.
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 12:05:06 am »

I dont know how much this is actually possible but I always imagined them docking kinda like a ship on the ocean.
The docks are raised into the sky and the airship stays in the air about 40-50 feet off the ground, people board, depart via a gangplank that links them to the dock and the refuel stations and all that jazz is stored inside the dock itself.
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Vellorian
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 03:48:42 am »

I took a seminar recently from a New York Times best-selling author.

The specific topic was: "Using travel in your writing."

One of the things that was explained may help: Unless the specific aspect of the travel has importance to the story, don't bother with it just to put more words on the page.

Now, as for the boarding, do you remember how the Empire State Building is constructed?  Tall, then tapers to a point?  The point was intended for mooring of dirigibles.  A "gang-plank" would be extended from the "gondola" and people would disembark, walking along a narrow plank with some less than safe hand-holds.

Now, unless your character is particularly afraid of heights, or unless this is the dramatic moment where you want to showcase this kind of thing, you can pretty well move the story along with...

"Disembarking from the airship was uneventful, even somewhat boring, as she waited for her baggage to arrive with the porter."
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MWBailey
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 03:58:45 am »

For the RTAFSt. Elmo, My airship from the Steam London: Realms of Aether RP, the Tinker's Row Airdock was equipped literally with a raised u-shaped dock berth for the ship to nose into. The AFP Boheme used, if I am not mistaken, a lateral side dock and/or a ramp, inside of a hangar. Mind you, the St. Elmo is a hybrid form of suspended-ship dirigible, and the Boheme has a door in the side of control car at least, adn if I remember correctly a door in teh side of teh hull as well, so in that wise at least the nautical paradigm holds and fits.

The RTAF Beau Rosin (Mad Jack Pulcifer's and also MW Brantley's armed, time-travelling blimp from the Steam Salon, Blazing Gun Saloon and Andromeda Effect RPs) boards/disembarks cargo and passengers via a 'gangramp' over the railing, or a rope ladder over same, either while the ship is in midair (usually rope ladder) or on the ground (gangramp).

Please note that other methods of docking/loading/unloading/maintenance would probably obtain for other types of dirigible designs.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 04:16:34 am by MWBailey » Logged

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arcwelder
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2010, 06:52:39 am »

One of the things that was explained may help: Unless the specific aspect of the travel has importance to the story, don't bother with it just to put more words on the page.

Yeah. What you often want to do is a combination of learning to be a good researcher and learning when to keep your mouth shut about things which don't really contribute to the story in a meaningful way.

A major offender in literature is when the author starts trying to use "a scientific explanation" for something - yet they are unwilling to do their research and they don't even have a high-school level understanding of basic scientific principles. The resulting mishmash just makes the author look ignorant and serves to break immersion rather than facilitate immersion (presumably the author's intent).

Technobabble is fine. Fantasy is fine. Glossing over the details is fine. Making the pretense of rationally explaining the details while saying things that are not even wrong just makes you look like an idiot who couldn't be bothered to do their research or adequately beta test the piece. These details are almost never critical to the story - you could change them in a trice to something which serves the same literary function or often even omit them entirely.

Yeah, there's a certain willing suspension of disbelief. But you shouldn't assume this is a blanket license to not do your bloody research. People will buy into straight up fantasies as long as they're reasonably consistent internally, but they'll reject stories which attempt a veneer of reality while frequently and directly being inconsistent with the same. You could think of this as a variation on the "uncanny valley" effect. The mind is most likely to rebel against input which is approximate to something it recognizes yet at the same time meaningfully inconsistent.

The TARDIS is a great example. There's a lot of technobabble around it which makes no pretense of not being artful nonsense. Practically, it's a magic box which serves to move the narrative along. It works so well in no small part because they are always up front about everything - sort of like a stage magician. The magician is up front about the fact that they're going to trick you. Somehow, perversely, this makes the human mind want to become a willing accomplice in the trick.
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Narsil
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 12:41:27 pm »

One of the things that was explained may help: Unless the specific aspect of the travel has importance to the story, don't bother with it just to put more words on the page.

Yeah. What you often want to do is a combination of learning to be a good researcher and learning when to keep your mouth shut about things which don't really contribute to the story in a meaningful way.

A major offender in literature is when the author starts trying to use "a scientific explanation" for something - yet they are unwilling to do their research and they don't even have a high-school level understanding of basic scientific principles. The resulting mishmash just makes the author look ignorant and serves to break immersion rather than facilitate immersion (presumably the author's intent).

Technobabble is fine. Fantasy is fine. Glossing over the details is fine. Making the pretense of rationally explaining the details while saying things that are not even wrong just makes you look like an idiot who couldn't be bothered to do their research or adequately beta test the piece. These details are almost never critical to the story - you could change them in a trice to something which serves the same literary function or often even omit them entirely.

Yeah, there's a certain willing suspension of disbelief. But you shouldn't assume this is a blanket license to not do your bloody research. People will buy into straight up fantasies as long as they're reasonably consistent internally, but they'll reject stories which attempt a veneer of reality while frequently and directly being inconsistent with the same. You could think of this as a variation on the "uncanny valley" effect. The mind is most likely to rebel against input which is approximate to something it recognizes yet at the same time meaningfully inconsistent.

The TARDIS is a great example. There's a lot of technobabble around it which makes no pretense of not being artful nonsense. Practically, it's a magic box which serves to move the narrative along. It works so well in no small part because they are always up front about everything - sort of like a stage magician. The magician is up front about the fact that they're going to trick you. Somehow, perversely, this makes the human mind want to become a willing accomplice in the trick.

I'd add to that that only a small fraction of your research needs to make it directly onto the page. The real art in writing is to be able to paint a rich picture without  labouring every single detail and ending up with something which is more like a technical manual than a novel. But the ability to do this successfully requires you to do more research not less. If you have a thorough understanding of the world you're trying to create it's much easier to get right to the point and less tempting to shower it with unnecessary detail as a substitute for substance.
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arcwelder
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 12:56:00 pm »

I'd add to that that only a small fraction of your research needs to make it directly onto the page. The real art in writing is to be able to paint a rich picture without  labouring every single detail and ending up with something which is more like a technical manual than a novel. But the ability to do this successfully requires you to do more research not less. If you have a thorough understanding of the world you're trying to create it's much easier to get right to the point and less tempting to shower it with unnecessary detail as a substitute for substance.

Absolutely. Really, the same thing goes for research in any context. Most of the work is intended to help you become sufficiently familiar with the topic. Then, after the fact, you draw upon the pieces which are most relevant when writing your story or paper or whatever. (This is one of those areas where good documentation does wonders.)

It also helps if you're allocating more effort to topics which you find more interesting. You can't always skip over the topics which you don't like as much, but your writing will be at its most interesting when you care the most about the topic.
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Professor Fzz
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 02:46:26 pm »

To answer the original question, it depends on what country you're talking about.  For Zeppilins the answer appears to be simply use a set of steps, somtimes with the airship still in the hangar:




If it wasn't in the hangar, they used a low boarding mast, and still used steps, or simply landed it.



British airships used a higher mooring mast and then passengers entered via a gangway just below the nose of the airship, before descending steps inside to the passenger cabins.



Much more details are here:  http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Mooring_mast
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 02:48:15 pm by Professor Fzz » Logged

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Professor Fzz
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2010, 03:07:53 pm »


This video shows the British mooring masts in operation:

The R101 Airship


Worth watching it to the end - very sad.
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Professor Fzz
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2010, 03:33:06 pm »

Oh, and one final video.  This one shows the Graf Zeppelin landing (about 7 minutes in) and the huge number of people needed to physically grab hold of her and hold her down:

The Graf Zeppelin
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Darin Calhoun
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2010, 03:35:27 pm »

Hello all!

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to post this question, but as it's for the novella I'm working on I went with textual. I have a few questions about airships/dirigibles because one of my main characters is traveling via air ship from England to the U.S.

I've set the port as Philadelphia as I believe that it would be the largest in the area in the time period I'm working with.


I would say Lakehurst, New Jersey Naval Station should be considered as the Hindenburg and Graf Zeppelins often landed there, and is were the US Navy Dirigibles were built and kept.  

My main question is how would someone board and depart an air ship? Does it land on the ground? Do they have some sort of 'gangplank' to get the people up there? What would they do with luggage/cargo?

In my story, the air ship in question is a passenger ship and the main character is a lady.

Any suggestions or answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Caboose


In Lakehurst it would be guided to the ground and moored to a anchor tower in good weather, and taken into the hanger during bad weather. The Hindenburg could lift the airship itself, plus over 200,000 pounds of passengers, crew, luggage, food, cargo, and mail ( which was a very important income source).  It could take on Thirty-six passengers and 61 crew members.

You may want to watch the movie "Farewell", about Lady Grace Drummond Hay who was a reporter that flew in the Graf Zeppelin around the world. There is a wonderful site here that has some info about it. http://www.airships.net/blog/movie-lady-hay-graf-zeppelin-farewell
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 03:42:36 pm by Darin Calhoun » Logged
caboose
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United States United States


« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2010, 12:34:18 am »

Wow, thanks for all the replies and info everyone! I wasn't expecting such a large response!

I found a lot of very helpful and I'm pretty sure I'll be bugging you all again with some more questions, lol.

Thanks!
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WickedPenguin
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 02:14:54 pm »

Thoroughness in research is a great thing, but realize that maybe 1% of what you find will actually make it onto the page. Research is also a great way to find out what NOT to do. For instance, if someone wrote, "I grabbed the 747's four throttles and jammed them forward to the afterburner detente," I'd scream bulls***! A 747 is not a bloody Concorde! I'd the writer was an idiot.

Onto airships.... I'd recommend researching the concept of "weighing off". It's a vital part of airship handling near the ground. Essentially, prior to both departure and landing, the ship must balance its lifting gas and weight to achieve proper buoyancy.

Departure was a balancing act. There are many factors in play here. There's of course the structural weight of the ship, loaded ballast, the weight of the fuel and stores, and the weight of people and cargo. There are also outside factors, such as temperature, barometric pressure, and the aerodrome's altitude above sea level, which play a dramatic role in the effectiveness of the lifting gas. The key is to get the airship off the ground, either with neutral or slight positive buoyancy. This is achieved by dropping ballast until the airship is able to rise on its own. Most vintage rigid airships were overloaded with ballast upon departure, allowing them some leeway in the effort to find the ideal weight.

One airborne, fuel is burned, food is consumed, waste matter produced, and drinking and bathing water is consumed. Lifting gas may be vented for altitude changes. Water ballast may be vented. The long and short is that the ship will never the weigh the same on arrival as it did on departure.

While in cruise flight, this change in buoyancy can be offset by trimming the flight controls. For instance, if the ship is too light, a slight bow down attitude can be dialed in to maintain level flight. Too heavy? Trim bow up.

However, once you're in the low speed landing phases, the flight controls don't have much aerodynamic authority. It then becomes crucial to achieve proper buoyancy. At this point, it's another balancing act. Gas may be vented to lower an overly lightened ship. Weight may even need to be dropped if too much gas was vented during the flight. As a side note, the operators of helium-based ships were very reluctant to vent gas, as helium is simply quite rare and expensive.

Later rigid airship designs took measures to combat the weight change and conserve their lifting gas. The German Zeppelins would not vent waste water from cooking/toilet and instead stored it in "dirty water" tanks. The Graf Zeppelin actually used a propane-like gas - called blau gas - as engine fuel due to its buoyancy compensation effects. The USS Akron and Macon incorporated water reclamation devices to capture condensation coming off the engines and store the water in ballast tanks as an effort to counteract the burned fuel. You can see them below as the white stripes above each engine.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/USS_Akron_in_flight%2C_nov_1931.jpg

The Macon and Akron would also depart without their Sparrowhawk scouting aircraft aboard. While ten thousand pounds worth of airplanes would have impeded the airship from getting off the ground, once the ships were in cruise flight they could trim away the effects of the weight. Therefore, their aircraft would take off under their own power from an airport and join the ships in flight. Additional fuel and store weight would be burned away during the remainder of the flight, enabling the airship to land with the aircraft on board.

For more information, check out this Wikipedia page I just stumbled across:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_compensator_%28aviation%29

You may not have to know the formulas, weight-and-balance sheets, checklists, and all the other minutia involved in weighing a ship off. That would make for some boring reading! However, a general working knowledge of lift vs. weight as applied in airship operations will certainly lend authenticity to your work.
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