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Author Topic: Body issues and embracing some new style  (Read 1243 times)
Reni Valentine
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see here, Gus - nobody chaperones the chaperone

Reni_Valentine
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2010, 05:27:32 pm »

EDIT: i've not been keeping up with the boards so this is a multi-post. sorry for the length!  Embarrassed

My point beyond my discomfort with these things is that I cannot picture myself doing the whole bustle and such. I’m afraid of looking like a footballer in a dress. And I’m not sure I’m the proper Victorian lady either.


for what it's worth, i'm not the proper Victorian lady either - hell, i'm not the proper lady in any time period.  Wink and to misquote myself from another thread - it's meant to be anachronistic; otherwise it's Victorian dress-up.

Though strangely reading some of these posts on here has made me want to get a corset. I'm a little worried though as my inside are damaged enough from some personal stuff; I'd rather just leave it at that. I'm not sure squishing things around would be a good idea.

Okay so maybe there is a little part of me that wants my waist to be 69 instead of 76, but only a little part.


the damage is done with prolonged tightlacing. corsetry itself may still be an option to look into if you're interested in such. it can be done without causing damage to one's body...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


i don't know you personally, but i feel the need to point out that you are simply fascinating...

I'm male, 5'9", slender, athletic, well-muscled, never had a problem attracting female attention in my adult life.

And yeah...still have body issues.  Why couldn't I have been 6'4" and 250 pounds of barrel-chested muscle with a lantern jaw and a Barry White voice?


if you sounded like Barry White, i for one would be thoroughly skeeved out... as to your height - your personality more than makes up for any lack thereof and i've told you as much!



I'm a 5'7" very curvy hourglass, but it's hard to believe people who tell me I look good when they're all female or related to me. I've never been looked at twice by a guy, which, at 21, can be a depressing realization.


I don't want to drag this too off topic, but I just wanted to let you know that it gets much better as you gt even a tiny bit older.  I'm 5'1" and about 300 pounds, and I'm now (about 30) knee deep in fine-ass young men all the time.  It's all about confidence (and possibly witchcraft).  The big secret is this: I really don't believe there is such a thing as "out of my league".  I know it's hard to believe now (becasue plenty of people told me when I was your age, and I didn't believe them), but it really does get much much better once you're about 23.


1 - feel free to point some of those "fine-ass young men" my way. please.  Wink
2 - yes, with age comes not only wisdom but a healthy dose of self-love for most. i was squidgy until around 23, but i also went through a lot of changes related to motherhood and blah blah blah.

Pshaww! If there is any subculture which cares LESS about shape and size I would wager it was Steampunk.


sadly, that's not always true. yes, we accept each other (especially here over the forums where a lot of us are faceless for all intents and purposes), but there is still a bit of the pretty girl syndrome. the girls that are lithe and pale and look as though they've stepped out of 1899 definitely seem to garner more attention than those of us who don't. it is what it is, you know?

for what it's worth - i'm 5'4"(ish? my license indicates that i'm two inches taller so i'm never really sure). i fall quite firmly into the "plus-size" clothing department (i honestly don't know my weight, nor am i bold enough to post it if i did). if i could change things, i would make my chest smaller and my torso larger and my face less round. but i can't change things (at least not without medical intervention). i make the best of it, you know? like VG i'm a lot of personality in a compacted package. that, and i have great eyes. everyone has their attributes - it takes a really strong person to see them in themselves. i have no doubt that you're amazing in your own way. be a snowflake and all that, ouais?
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In all reality, "steampunk" is anachronistic, innit? Otherwise it's just Victorian dress-up.

chain smokin', sleep needin', apparel designin', mohawk havin', tea drinkin', steady cursin', boy charmin', card readin' rabble-rouser and amusement park cleverly disguised as a woman

TS245
Nikola Tesla
Zeppelin Overlord
*******
United States United States


Angel of Timefoolery


« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2010, 08:22:54 pm »

I might point out something about pretty much all of us and vintage clothing or Victoriana.

Many (not all) of us are much taller than the average in those times, because we eat better.  While the wealthier classes of humanity have always managed an adequate diet, in many times and places the "average" person was overworked, underfed, and/or fed in an improper nutritional balance.  In Industrial Revolution times, sunlight was also a factor (rickets, anyone?).  So the "average" person was smaller.  Hence we often can't fit into "vintage" clothes for whichever gender.  This makes modern seamstress skills, which can provide the same clothing in a larger overall size, much appreciated.

And, just to echo pretty much the entire health news-o-sphere, we're fatter.  I'm not going to get into all the toxic body judgments our media are making about any woman who isn't shaped like a parking meter with large breasts or any man who doesn't resemble an action figure.  We need to be healthy but...anyway.  The extra adipose makes it harder for us to fit into clothing that was tighter around the waist than it is today - especially for our women, most of whom have not been corseting since they were eight.

And on that last...a modern woman is also much more likely to be physically fit!  If your waist is thick and firm from eating healthy protein and fresh fruit since you were small, and from being allowed to go out for sport instead of sitting in the shade doing needlepoint, that is a good thing!  Some fat over it?  Still not really all that bad.  It just means that where clothes are concerned, the ladies especially are going to have to get creative.  Is that bad?  Not for steampunks.  Does it mean something bad about your body?  Emphatically not!  We live in a prosperous and ambitious society, and many of our body problems reflect that reality, which remains a good reality despite our physical imperfections and non-imperfections.  More power to us!

(Now for those of us who are trying to fit our pot-bellies into Civil War uniforms, I'm not sure I can say this as emphatically... Wink )
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"An announcement that a poetry-reading is about to take place will empty a room quicker than a water-cannon." - Daniel C. Stove, The Oracles and Their Cessation
Vagabond GentleMan
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Clockwork Sepia


« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2010, 09:09:04 pm »

- your personality more than makes up for any lack thereof and i've told you as much!


Personality?  You callin' me ugly?  Grin  >JK, of course!<
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Well that wolf has a dimber bonebox, and he'll flash it all milky and red.  But you won't see our Red Jack's spit, nug, cuz he's pinked ya, and yer dead.
Reni Valentine
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


see here, Gus - nobody chaperones the chaperone

Reni_Valentine
WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2010, 09:35:08 pm »

You're daft! Hahaha! I was merely referring to your height!!! I'll deal with you later Wink
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Kelley
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States



« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2010, 07:08:55 am »

A side show performer? That's supposed to reassure me?  Grin It did make me laugh though. So it isn't all bad. Not that I don't like side show performers, I've met an escape artist and used to know a fire breather. Good folk.


Unfortunately, like many "oddities" in side-shows at the time, she might not have had a great deal of choice in the matter. Parents might have trouble affording to clothe and care for such a child - and side-show touring might be a way for such a person to gain independence later in life - and, unlike an escape artist - she was simply born that way.

I'm not sure about her - but her husband alone earned $400 a month. I don't have a great deal of knowledge on the exact exchange rates and conversions, but from what I can figure out - but from what I can tell, that works out to around £80 - which is almost double what a labourer would have made in an entire year. Just some perspective !

Also, she was over a foot taller than you !

So there I am, with this great idea for exploring and having fun with the creativity of my artist self, and a list of my measurements. I got a big frustrated with trying to figure out sizes.


Knowing your measurements is definitely good. If you would like to try to sew, but do not do so right now - a simple full skirt is one of the easiest projects you can do to get a feel for it - and if you don't want to actually wear the skirt down - you can hitch it up while wearing trousers (something that some women actually did at the time, albeit in pretty laborious jobs like mining).

Since I am the opposite of tall, I do not know any resources in that area. I did know a girl who was about 6' and much larger than you - and she seemed to be able to find fitting clothing somewhere - so I think there's definitely hope. I am used to being shorter than a lot of people, so I honestly usually don't really think of it when someone's taller than I am.


I might point out something about pretty much all of us and vintage clothing or Victoriana.

Many (not all) of us are much taller than the average in those times, because we eat better.  While the wealthier classes of humanity have always managed an adequate diet, in many times and places the "average" person was overworked, underfed, and/or fed in an improper nutritional balance.  In Industrial Revolution times, sunlight was also a factor (rickets, anyone?).  So the "average" person was smaller.  Hence we often can't fit into "vintage" clothes for whichever gender.  This makes modern seamstress skills, which can provide the same clothing in a larger overall size, much appreciated.


Another thing that is often not mentioned since it's "unsavoury" is that the "classes" did not mix as much as they do today. There was a lot of genetic material getting bounced around the upper-class (more likely to be photographed - so this is easy to see), and people simply looked different because of this - combined with less ethnic mixing, you have a very different population.

I would guess genetic diversity likely also helped people grow stronger and healthier, in combination with a better diet and lifestyle. I mention it because I have found the "changing face" of society to be incredibly interesting - it came up when we were talking about faking old photographs once.


All the well-fitting clothing I own is from the 1920s or before. It's nearly impossible to find these sizes today. I have heard I should look to Asian companies, but I have not found anything yet - I would guess the language barrier is a problem as these are most likely not usually marketed at Westerners.

I recently bought a modern suit and it fits like a bag, and I plan to alter it as best I can to match the lines of the Edwardian tuxedo jacket I have, which is about the ideal figure I'd like (natural shoulders, non-boxy).






Since a lot of people have mentioned corsets, I just wanted to throw out the bit of information that Victorian waists were not significantly smaller than modern waists. The main issue with vintage dresses, I've found, is the shoulders being too narrow for modern wearers.

When looking at Victorian photographs, one must remember that there was "photo-trickery" even back then, and certainly some antique photos seen on-line have been touched by modern PhotoShop as well. As well, photographs where a serious affair - they were quite costly and took some time to produce - a woman would likely have worn her very best clothing, and perhaps laced her corset tighter than she normally might (as might be done on "special occasions" like a ball, where a bit of discomfort was borne for that vanity).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here, you can see how the top of the dress is padded. Her actual rib-cage is not as large as it appears to be, and her breasts probably do not sit where the eye perceives they do - padding the bust, and sides of the chest ( Like here), was definitely done, either to "enhance" the figure or to fill out a ready-made corset that didn't fit perfectly.

The point is that her waist is not as drastically re-shaped as it appears to be. Her waist is probably in the 24-27" range, nothing crazy or completely otherworldly - just some soft fat pushed around. Measurements like 16" and 18" were not common - and if seen were for the measure of the actual corset - which was generally left open quite a bit.

I think Victorian corsetting is greatly exaggerated. I see modern authors throw around ridiculous numbers for shock value and I think it's a warped picture that anyone takes them seriously.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, on the topic of "body image", I wanted to show this picture - none of the women are what magazines would call "thin" today - none of them could be runway models, or even print models by today's standards. It's actually fairly uncommon to find antique pictures of women who are that thin, the beauty ideal was in a way more natural than it is today (I argue that using a corset to smooth one's "lumps" is less invasive and dangerous over-all than having one's fat removed with knives and needles).


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lillie Langtry, while she certainly had an impressively corsetted waist, was definitely naturally larger than most super-skinny "famous beauties" of today.

One can only wonder what modern eyes and surgeons would require of these ladies. The simple truth is, it's not necessary - not for health in many cases, and certainly not to attract the opposite (or whichever) sex.

On the Wikipedia page about Corsets, the most of the pictures of women in corsets have that same plump look. Look at the "before and after" picture !  Some women definitely took things to an extreme, like some still do today - but this was not normal or common at all (and it should be noted that even figures such as Polaire's have been subject to much re-touching, she certainly had a tiny waist, but people still want it to be smaller to be more shocking).


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Mata Hari never allowed topless photographs of herself because she was self-conscious about her small breasts.



i don't know you personally, but i feel the need to point out that you are simply fascinating...


O, shucks !
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 09:46:48 am by Kelley » Logged
Nikola Tesla
Zeppelin Overlord
*******
United States United States


Angel of Timefoolery


« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2010, 07:58:54 am »

Quote
I wanted to show this picture - none of the women are what magazines would call "thin" today

To be fair, it's been a long time since I've seen any evidence that magazines were calling anyone "thin".  Every time I pass through the grocery checkout, the magazines at eye level are screaming about how fat their (presumably female) target audience is, with diet this and trim and tone that; men's magazines that mention the body at all usually include a piece on how to get rid of one's belly or the dreaded "man-boobs" (though there are also those big-muscle things that might call you too thin, implication "scrawny").  Yellow-journalism celebrity rags are always featuring a "look how fat so-and-so is" section; the only time "thin" is mentioned is when it can believably be presented as a sign of anorexia.  A woman, anyway, has to be ridiculously thin before the idea is even brought up.

I'd agree though that if one is going to achieve a "thin" look, a "waisted" look, or just "smooth some lumps and bumps", that it is healthier to do so with a garment worn on the outside than with surgery (or extreme dieting).  I'm hardly anti-corset; they also can be excellent for posture, which is a definite health effect.  However, "corseting" and "surgery" are hardly the only options.  There are lifestyle options up to a point, and clothes options, and hey, the acceptance option.

As to the naturalness of Victorian feminine beauty ideals (I assume we're not talking about the "invalid look", which of course still has its adherents today), I'll definitely agree on one major point:  women back then were not expected to remove all trace of softness from their physiques; the fact that women carry a somewhat higher fat percentage and thus a softer look was generally accepted.  These days, it seems that fashion-minded women are trying to harden-up everything; soft squishy hips or buttocks or thighs or shoulders are seen as evidence of overeating or under-exercising.  It's not exactly like the women are trying to look like men; in fact, it seems that the most feminine-presenting ones are the most likely to want to be rid of all forms of fat.  So it doesn't look like a feminism/equality/liberation from tradition thing, but more clearly a fashion thing; I guess modern clothes look good on clothes hangers, so people are trying to resemble clothes hangers as much as possible.  Maybe bring back the more humanlike dressmaker's dummy?
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