Steampunk, get ye off the computer!

[Johnny Payphone]

One of the points from the "social structures" thread that I strongly wish to state and stand behind is that, while discussion and imagination are all well and good, the Internet is a poor substitute for participation in real-life society.  What I would like to assert is that there are demonstrable examples of people dressing, living, engineering, and creating steampunk worlds in real life, and those people don't neccessarily participate in this or any online forum because their (and my) aesthetic tastes are inclined to shy away from this awkward, impersonal, and time-wasting form of communication.  My personal theory is that this is due to a class difference between the we're-living-live-the-old-way-with-a-modern-twist crowd and the lets-talk-about-how-awesome-it-would-be-to-do-that crowd, but that debate has apparently been run into the ground like Zeppelin's first eight attempts.

So.  Despite my contempt for it the Internet has introduced our way of life to a whole bunch of folks.  Many of them were surprised to discover a Wikipedia entry describing them.  Others were just bored and looking for someone to be.  I can't wait to meet you all.  But, I don't necessarily feel that the influx of a bunch of white nerds who found "A Past That Wasn't" is a good thing for my personal vision of the world, particularly if it ends up as a bunch of livejournal entries and a yearly visit to SteamCON.  I would rather see people manifesting their individual dream as reality (because, although they will differ, they rarely clash and the world could use a shot of class anyway- I echo Steampunk Magazine's call for a revolution in design).  I would be pleased as punch if folks who were well-off supported an entire industry of craftsmen who made functional objects for the retrofuturist (I'm not anti-money, I'm pro-perspective if you'll recall, and presence on the internet is a symptom of privelege, that's all I'm screamin').  But one thing I've learned over the years is that the more time you spend talking about something on the Internet, the less time you spend doing that something.  This is the curse of blogs, right?  The ones that are updated the most are usually about the owner's cat.

I have a desperate fear that the knowledge of old ways will die off while the young folks jibber-jabber about it on the Internet.  You should get off your duff and go find your nearest hair-flower maker, live steam engineer, or vintage seamstress immediately and I guarantee they will be overjoyed to find someone eager to learn their craft.  You should also throw caution to the wind an wear those goggles or that waistcoat every day.  If your boss complains then you need another job.  If you can't find one then you need to move.  I consider this claim- 'get off the internet and get some face-time with old retrofuturists while you live your life as you envision it' vs. 'people are connected this way, the internet can play a role in a steampunk's life' - to be a subject worthy of discussion.  I hope the moderators feel the same way. 

[HAC]

Ok, I'll play along here...
 
The way I see it is that too many see this stuff as a game, or simply something to set them apart, and that's fine for what it is, and in that the Internet provides them a service.
 As far as knowledge being lost, that's all too true in many fields of endeavour in this age of "instant gratification". No-one wants to work for anything anymore.  The concept of the "Renaissance Man" is one that appears to be out of favour.

  The best way to learn something is to get out there and do it. I knew very little about steam until I got really dirty and bruised in the process, and I was lucky to have had an old-time master steam mechanic as a mentor. Why did I do it? It was interest and pride, I wanted to see that beast run again, and be part of the heritage. For every one of us who EARNED that crew pin (and there weren't many handed out) there were hundreds "isn't that cool" hangers on, who  did nothing to learn or help, but thought it would make them cool to be around the project,
 
   The sad thing is that a lot of the "olde wayes" could be used (albeit in an updated manner) beneficially in today's world. Lots of
good stuff buried in there. (as an aside, check out "The Backwoodsman" another great resource of old "technology").  Find something that interests you, then get out there and learn by doing.. (I did that a few years ago with flint knapping, looked cool, found someone to show me, adn then caused a sudden and sharp increase in Band-Aid stock) - BUT I ended up after two summers work with a very nice flint bladed knife that I had the satisfaction of making.  (pics on request  )

 As far as apparel, well, while I agree, we could use a "touch of class" to offset the current "look".
To me goggles are a safety device only, and while I would not consider (save in the shops)  them part of daily apparel,  the vest at work is not dead, nor is the pocket watch and chain.. (of course it helps that the vest is a vintage CPR  conductors vest, and the watch is a proper vintage CPR railroad watch, even if it gets worn with custom burgundy kanagroo cowboy boots and black dress pants and white shirt) (which, as an aside, is how I got into vintage watches. As part of the 2816 project, I was asked to find 10 ex-CPR vintage watches from the "approved list), and that led to interest, and a lot of hands-on learning from the watchmaker that eventually became a good friend)

I could go on, but I feel that our Mr.Payphone has a valid (indeed several) point.

That's my .02, flame if you will, after working live steam, I don't burn easy...

Cheers
Harold
 

[chicar]

I want to personnally thank you for this encouraging acidental agreed to all my recent decision dictated by this philosophy.

[HAC]

I want to personnally thank you for this encouraging acidental agreed to all my recent decision dictated by this philosophy.

Bienvenue copain...

Salut!
Harold   (nee a Montreal)

[Baron Verndorf]

With all do respect Mr. Payphone, why the hell are you here? You are so derisive of the internet, and yet you do indeed post on this forum. It's like me going to an arcade, and yelling at all the kids there 'why are you wasting your time?', then getting down and throwing a quarter into time crises. What bout the people that have no intention of living that life, who dont really care about 'upholding the true examples of steam', but just kinda like it? Isn't that one of the great things about the internet? That i can hop around from forum to forum, dabbling in this, looking at that, learning about another thing?

I am not a steampunker. There you are, i'm not, i'm simply a fellow who, ever so often, enjoys throwing on a Waistcoat, Pocket Watch/chain, tie, trousers, and spats, tends to have slightly antiquated views, and likes the way a steam engine looks. So, may i now be free of your silly little manifestoes? Sure, it'd be nice to get out and try all that real stuff, but here's the truth, it's not that easy. So i'm quite glad youve found your little world of living steel and steam, why dont you dive into it and stop ridiculing us peons who dont have the moral fortitude, self will, time, or money to do it ourselves.

[Gearworks]

"The best way to learn something is to get out there and do it."

From a personal perspective I think that such questions as these are loaded with the despair of the dreamer.   I fully agree with you, but in my efforts to "get out there and do it" I have been badly chastised and mocked.  Not every one can be as fire proof as you.

[kiskolou]

Can't all of the people with "Important" Things to say just shut up for a day? Let's stop trying to be cool and enjoy steampunk, in whatever form you wish. Internet or otherwise.

[HAC]

"The best way to learn something is to get out there and do it."

 Not every one can be as fire proof as you.

Age has its privileges      if you're a bona fides old fart they just ignore ya!

[Kabuki]

"The best way to learn something is to get out there and do it."

 Not every one can be as fire proof as you.

Age has its privileges      if you're a bona fides old fart they just ignore ya!

Yay!  I'm getting close!  Wait....  Drat.

At any rate, I certainly appreciate Johnny's sentiment of "Put up or shut up!", but not all of us are in a position to do so.  Be it monetary constraints, social ineptitude, general lack of steampunk vibe in their given local, or a pure inability to pull it off.  I must partially agree with Baron Verndorf, in that while I have been able to bring a little steam in to my life, I am in a position that does not allow me to fully embrace a modification of my wardrobe.  I simply must drive an automobile, and yes, it also must operate on gasoline fuel.  That is just the way it is.  But I do not feel that I should be excluded, because I don't live the life.  Isn't the whole idea of lifestyle to make one happy? 

[Cory]

*chuckle*

Nice shot at my former website.

[Gearworks]

"The best way to learn something is to get out there and do it."

 Not every one can be as fire proof as you.

Age has its privileges      if you're a bona fides old fart they just ignore ya!

I hear that a lot actually.  It doesn't actually help anybody though, except vindicate the speaker's own ability.

[Flynn MacCallister]

*Groans* I feel as though I'm back in high school.

[Gearworks]

*Groans* I feel as though I'm back in high school.

Don't ever become a politician or a teacher.

I was only saying that the advise wasn't really advise.  My advise is pray to your God that there is someone near you that is as interested as you in "Steampunk".

[HAC]

"The best way to learn something is to get out there and do it."

 Not every one can be as fire proof as you.

Age has its privileges      if you're a bona fides old fart they just ignore ya!

I hear that a lot actually.  It doesn't actually help anybody though, except vindicate the speaker's own ability.

Well.. I tend to feel that to fully learn something, you really need to at least try to do something. I could simply, for example have read books on flinknapping, and perhaps understood it, but to actually make something gives you the feel of how it must have been for those who went before.
Its the appreciation that makes it worthwhile...

Cheers
Harold

[Gearworks]

"The best way to learn something is to get out there and do it."

 Not every one can be as fire proof as you.

Age has its privileges      if you're a bona fides old fart they just ignore ya!

I hear that a lot actually.  It doesn't actually help anybody though, except vindicate the speaker's own ability.

Well.. I tend to feel that to fully learn something, you really need to at least try to do something. I could simply, for example have read books on flinknapping, and perhaps understood it, but to actually make something gives you the feel of how it must have been for those who went before.
Its the appreciation that makes it worthwhile...

Cheers
Harold

Oh, I agree!  It's the doing thats the hard part!  I have worked very hard on a particular "Steampunk" goal of mine for several years now, and I have been given no real help by anybody and probably won't get any in the future.  They say the profession is dying out, but I can't find one person in my area who will apprentice me.  I don't want to become a professional through self teaching, as it does not appeal to me and finally, some weeks ago I stumbled onto some bright shining light after all but giving up on my dream.  I still have many years ahead of me in this pitiful plan, but I will continue striving until I reach the fulcrum.  The plans for my business are laid out on my wall and I gaze at them longingly every day.  I get strange looks and chuckles were ever I am to go, even though I am dressed sharply!  It grates on my confidence and I want to scream at the world for it.  Here I am, trying to live life as I please and in a conservative manner no less in a wholly conservative state and I am scorned by those who dare wear flip-flops to their jobs and dress in tattered clothes in public.  They are the ones who should be ashamed, but I am mocked by them and it rubs me.   

[HAC]

Good on yer mate! 
Keep on striving, be true to yourself, thats the main thing..

Luck to you.
Cheers
Harold

[gpalmer]

Oh, I agree!  It's the doing thats the hard part!  I have worked very hard on a particular "Steampunk" goal of mine for several years now, and I have been given no real help by anybody and probably won't get any in the future.  They say the profession is dying out, but I can't find one person in my area who will apprentice me.  I don't want to become a professional through self teaching, as it does not appeal to me and finally, some weeks ago I stumbled onto some bright shining light after all but giving up on my dream.  I still have many years ahead of me in this pitiful plan, but I will continue striving until I reach the fulcrum.  The plans for my business are laid out on my wall and I gaze at them longingly every day.  I get strange looks and chuckles were ever I am to go, even though I am dressed sharply!  It grates on my confidence and I want to scream at the world for it.  Here I am, trying to live life as I please and in a conservative manner no less in a wholly conservative state and I am scorned by those who dare wear flip-flops to their jobs and dress in tattered clothes in public.  They are the ones who should be ashamed, but I am mocked by them and it rubs me.   

It's hard, yes.  But so it goes.  I've received mockery and misunderstanding for many aspects of my life that I can't control, as well as my peculiarities of dress and behavior.  And I live in a fairly liberal area.  I know very well that tolerance would be less, were I in a more conservative one.  But it's much harder to conform than to take strange looks and scorn, so I do as I will, and the rest of the world may hang.  It is helpful, of course, that I am finally able to work for myself, and thus am no longer confined by dress codes.  However, it's my experience that the weird tend to filter into places where they can be themselves, if doing so is their priority.  I have sacrificed income for freedom.  It's a conscious choice, and one I don't regret.  Going against the masses has always been incredibly difficult.  It takes a lot of work and a lot of misery to do it.  Still, if going with the masses grates more, it is what one does.

Grace D. Palmer

[Tristian Dreyman]

Ok, time for my two cents worth... although on my side of the atlantic, should it be pennies? hmm...

I'm going to take the diplomatic view here and say I think both sides of this argument have valid points of view.

Mr Payphone, you have long been a bastion of real-life steampunk culture, and that is your life-style. I admire you for it, sir. And that is meant with no sarcasm. It is true that, as with any emerging sub-culture/lifestyle (lets not start THAT debate again), there will be hangers on and posers. However, telling other people they aren't Steampunk enough because they don't live it every hour of the day is taking it a bit too far. We all display our allegiance to that greatest of forces in different ways, be it by wearing that cravat and waistcoat to work/college, scribbling fiction set in the world we wish we lived in, or, yes indeed, going out and learning to build a steam engine.

To Baron Verndoff, I applaud your honesty and boldness in your response. It is true, there is a slight hypocrisy to telling people to get off a computer, using a computer... Your arcade analogy was broadly relevant. And, though my regular dress code is indeed waistcoat, shirt and trousers, my job and other life as a rock guitarist does need the comfort of faded jeans and a Dave Matthews T-shirt, so I get that as well. It is true that, although the aesthetic styles of Chav, Emo and whatever other ones are out there (bit of a social recluse, apologies) have been vaguely accepted, Steampunk is still rather new and not widely known.

So, in the spirit of progressing our cause, let's live and let live.

*Groans* I feel as though I'm back in high school.

Don't ever become a politician or a teacher.

I was only saying that the advise wasn't really advise.  My advise is pray to your God that there is someone near you that is as interested as you in "Steampunk".

Good advice there... And yes, it is rather like school...

[Doctor Trakov]

I like waffles

[Baron Verndorf]

I like waffles

Indeed... waffles are tasty.

[Smaggers]

I believe what has happened is that this site has attracted two previously unconnected aspects of the same culture.

The interest in steampuk literature goes back to the original Verne, Wells et al books.  There have been reread by generations since they were first written, films have been made and remade, other books in the same vein appeared bringing in analogies of new technologies as and when they appeared.   Such is the way of any developing culture. Suddenly in the eighties they pick up a steampunk name tag due to one authors sense of humour.

The interest in steampunk technology goes back to the original technology and the aesthetics of the age that went with it.   People ever since have been dressing their own way and tinkering with old style engines and technologies, be they steam/old bike/car enthusiasts, or general Victorian culture enthusiasts, bringing in old aesthetics and craftsmanship to new technologies as and when they appeared.  Bringing their own fashion/lifestyle sensibilities to old fashions.  Such is the way of any developing culture. Suddenly in the eighties they pick up a steampunk name tag due to one authors sense of humour.


Then due to the nametag they both end up here and everyone starts puffing and blowing about how theirs is the one true way when really they are two sides of the same coin.

Oh and people who observe, enjoy, and comment on a culture are part of that culture, just as fans of a particular band or movie director who chat and comment of the latest piece are part of that culture even if they can't play instruments or don't know how editing actually works.  


Enough already.

[Alderman Simeon]

{Applauds}

[heresyoftruth]

I believe what has happened is that this site has attracted two previously unconnected aspects of the same culture.

The interest in steampuk literature goes back to the original Verne, Wells et al books.  There have been reread by generations since they were first written, films have been made and remade, other books in the same vein appeared bringing in analogies of new technologies as and when they appeared.   Such is the way of any developing culture. Suddenly in the eighties they pick up a steampunk name tag due to one authors sense of humour.

The interest in steampunk technology goes back to the original technology and the aesthetics of the age that went with it.   People ever since have been dressing their own way and tinkering with old style engines and technologies, be they steam/old bike/car enthusiasts, or general Victorian culture enthusiasts, bringing in old aesthetics and craftsmanship to new technologies as and when they appeared.  Bringing their own fashion/lifestyle sensibilities to old fashions.  Such is the way of any developing culture. Suddenly in the eighties they pick up a steampunk name tag due to one authors sense of humour.


Then due to the nametag they both end up here and everyone starts puffing and blowing about how theirs is the one true way when really they are two sides of the same coin.

Oh and people who observe, enjoy, and comment on a culture are part of that culture, just as fans of a particular band or movie director who chat and comment of the latest piece are part of that culture even if they can't play instruments or don't know how editing actually works. 


Enough already.

I think you are right. I came here because there is a great forum in Tactile, that lets me see what other people are doing. I was previously spending a lot of time on MAKE:, and Instructables for the same reasons. When I got here, I was surprised to find there was a whole clothing, fiction, etc side of things. Personally, I have always liked vests and pocket watches, but it goes with my general liking of anachronistic items.

I think that's what makes up the tension we are seeing. Personally, I could care less about Victorian era fiction, but give me a good list of junk sellers, and I am in heaven. I do sew, and that brings me in contact more with the clothiers, but I sew for my daily life, not costuming. I find a lot of good in the costumers that do the con/cosplay thing because we are all sewing things. Who cares how often we each individually wear them.

I think, also, the two halves of this genre attract those with a stronger sense of independence. You have to have some decent levels of self confidence to step outside social norms, and sometimes that self confidence can help you hold your convictions in front the the Lowe's sales guy making fun of your project, or clash with someone else over minor definition issues on a genre you love.

Since I am more hands on, I am a big proponent of just getting out there and DOING THINGS. Sure there will be mistakes, and yes people will tease you. It doesn't mean you can't use the internet as a tool for asking questions when you are stuck, and looking for help in your local area.

I also think some folks are just not interested in anything hands on. My husband sure isn't. He is more of a hypothetical guy, and is happy to leave the tinkering to me. I don't begrudge him that. He's a white collar worker, and I am blue collar. Neither one of us would be happy in a reversed roll.

[Smaggers]

Mind you here's a sage piece of advice which is from the same direction I believe Mr P is coming from.

Sir Robin Knox-Johnston is a yachtsman.  He has just complete his latest solo circumnavigation of the globe. This involved lack of sleep, amazing stamina and included diving into freezing water to untangle a rope from the keel.  "I knew I'd have to do it in two minutes, or my hands would be so numb I wouldn't be able to climb back into the boat".

He's 79.

He's wondering about taking up flying, though he's not giving up the sea.

Being interviewed afterwards he was asked about for advice and said "You should always try to paint your life in bright colours, you only get one run at it."

Not always easy, but good advice, however it practically works out for a particular person.  

[Quebrith]

"Get off the computer" is an admirable statement, as is an encouragement to folks to expand their horizons.
(I am reminded of the advertisements during Saturday morning cartoons, telling kids to go play outside.)

On the other hand, my father (a psychologist) gave me some great advice once:

"If it's worth doing, it's worth doing poorly."

He was referring to hobbies, not vocations. Meaning, you shouldn't have to be an expert to enjoy a pasttime. If lurking and marveling at the AMAZING creations posted on this site floats your zeppelin, more power to you. Plenty of room and plenty of sub-forums for all.

Celebrate diversity!