Reproduction Typewriter Keys

[Spotteh]

To waterbug,

Id love to see any pics on these efforts of yours, and your design aswell! I understand that Metal working can be difficult, but The industrial arts is my thing! For now, I have given up on the tabs on the backs of the keys, Because as long as the backing and clear are a snug fit, there should be little hassle, and removable rims might not be a bad thing, I just have make it nice and snug!

What I plan on doing, once a little more capital is in order, is taking 0.3mm to 0.5mm thick metal tubing(9/16th OD), cutting out a 1/4th inch ring  and setting those aside. My next step is to take a 1/16 inch peice of sheet steel and boring a 9/16th countersunk hole into the sheet, then take 2 1/16th sheets and boring a hole clear through these, so i can stack them and make a die that is 3/16th thick.

Ill heat the ring and tap it into the die, forming a ring with a 1/16th bevel at the top, next I will flatten the bevel with a flat sheet. Finally I will Take a 1/2 inch steel rod and bend the rims in, this should yeild me with a 3/16th inch thick key with a 1/16 rim bent in. It should be able to hold a 1/16th inch of clear acryllic or glass, the identifier, and a 1/16th piece of balsa or basswood veneer back. Careful sanding and a little bit of Clear Epoxy should leave me with a close replica!


I Have all the tools I need, i just need to wait for my next gain on capital to afford the tube.


Still on the drawing boared, but i beleive im getting closer! Stay tuned everyone!

[Waterbug]

Just for the record, I see no problem with disassembling typewriters. The market sets their value and the value is pretty low. Many typewriters go unsold and end up in the trash. Someday maybe their numbers will be reduced to the point of becoming valued. Then my huge stash will be worth millions and millions.

Here are my notes.

Shows different rim profiles I've seen and my initial threaded design, later simplified.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

More threaded design.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Diagram at the bottom I thought interesting, tapping the tube.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also tapping the tube but also the cut off to taper the wall for the round over.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My big problem at the time was I didn't understand annealing. Now that I do I believe the task of rolling the rim would be much easier.

I would not underestimate the problem of how these keys would be attached to whatever their finial use. It screwed me up several times.

I also have drawings for the threaded design sent to the machine shop. If needed I could find those. But not very interesting since I think threading is far too time consuming for a mass produced item, plus the need for thicker stock, seemed a dead end.

And speaking of dead ends...I gave up on this for economic reasons. The number of keys needed per keyboard at 100+ is a scary multiplier. Keys from old typewriters are expensive, but still less than $1 each, less than $0.40 each with careful buying. And these keys have history and are perfection. That's the competition. I suggest a cost analysis before investing too time and money.

There are two ways I see to make this worth while. One, a large market. I believe someone like Datamancer would like to produce keyboards in larger numbers and less labor. Two, improve the design. Steampunk the key itself. For example, in trying to improve the tabs I thought to drill tiny holes through the sides of the ring into the base and then use tiny rivets. A copper or brass ring with the other metal as the rivet I think would look nice. Also, a key may look nicer if thicker. Any improvement could increase value and cover cost. Plus, anything worth doing is worth doing well.

However, I think it would provide excellent experience and completely worthwhile from that perspective.

To me epoxy would be completely out of the question. I think the key should be able to be disassembled and fixed by the user. Liquid on the keys can stain the paper beneath.

I have to study your die making plan more as I didn't get an image in my head on the first read. It certainly sounded very interesting. You're far ahead of me in your understanding of how metal performs. Without that experience I tend to over think what is needed.

One last thing comes to mind...I was looking into buying a manual press but didn't know what size was needed. So I sent a piece of copper pipe to a press manufacturer to test how much their press could deform it. But without a die or dies I really couldn't go further. Do you have any way to test with some simple die idea using copper pipe? I am in Phoenix AZ. I don't suppose you are down the street?

[Captain Quinlin Hopkins]

If you don't mind a quick interjection here.  Copper is a wonderful material, that can be worked easily.  For the most simple exercise go you your local cheap tool store(such as a harbor freight) and pick up a double tube flaring tool kit http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/66000-66999/66534.pdf.  It contains a die, which, when inserted into the properly sized tube, begins to bend the tubing in.  Removing the die and finishing cranking on the handle presses this bend down and back onto itself as it produces the final flare.  It's meant to double the wall thickness and give a bit more material over to compression in a flare fitting.  A very similar die could easily be used in a fly press http://www.flypress.com/manual_sizes.htm to hand mint each piece from tubing.  
To cut the same from sheet stock would involve a few more complicated dies, but their complexity lends to more reproducible dimensions.  As well as a bit more speed(if the multiple stages can be run on a single stroke).  Though either process is not extremely complicated, they do take a bit of research to master.  
At the bottom of the fly press link are a few charts for calculating pressure needed.  

Best of luck,  It's something you can definitely accomplish, so don't give up.  

[Waterbug]

Captain,

Good to see a face I recognize. The flaring tool is only the exact tool I have been searching for oh these many months. While I have done some plumbing over the years I never really used compression fittings much and so did not know of such a tool. Whether or not it actually is the finial solution or I just learn further it at least allows me to move past this road block. The Oliver Keypad company is back in business.

Right off, looking at the picture of the dies it gives me ideas on making dies which I also have no experience. Simply drilling into steel stock with a large bit, maybe 3/4" to 1", just to create a concaved surface. Pushing the tube into that should start to round over the rim. The a series of such dies, unless one does the job, until the rim is at least 90 degrees over. Then maybe other dies to push the rim straight down. But for all I know this is what the flaring tool does. My local Harbor Frieght opens in 30 minutes so hopefully I will know some results tonight. I will be using rigid pipe, but annealing will take care of that unless there is some dimensional difference that messes the works.

I have a manual tool used to punch holes in steel given cutting dies. Hopefully this will serve as fly press.

For me copper is my first choice for keys for many reasons in addition to ease of working. It improves the look over the nickel plated steel. It steampunks the key itself rather then just the key steampunking another object. Also copper is thought to cure or help with several ailments from arthritis pain to Menke's Syndrome and the user will be in direct contact with the keys. Whether or not I believe this is immaterial, only my patrons' beliefs matter. Copper can of course also be plated so that option is still available.

Captain, it is just these types of diversions why it takes me 15 weeks to complete a hidden door bookcase which should have taken 2.

Spotteh, what do you think. I would like to be saved from further dead ends. The equipment you have access to would still produce a superior result I should think and at a faster rate.

[Waterbug]

The flaring tool is in stock and I am as giddy as a little girl and out the door. The kit also includes tube benders, something else I have wanted to try. Giddy I say. Thanks much Captain.

[Captain Quinlin Hopkins]

This particular kit will work on 8 sizes from 3/16" to 5/8", so even if it's not exactly right, Hopefully one will be close enough to at least give you the concept.  

If you don't mind delays I've an entire machine shop at my disposal, so may be of some assistance in creating a purpose built die.  Only heat treating would be lacking.  I'm currently working 80+ so little time for side projects.  But I do squeeze them in when I can.  Odds are what you need is already out there, it's just tracking it down properly that's the bugger.  

Edit and do make sure you're looking at the Double flare kit.  The single flare won't help you a bit. 

[Waterbug]

OK, there are two ways I go off, half cocked or not at all.

Yes, I called about the flaring kit and not the double. Lucky for me the two were side by side and my brain did engage for a moment. I got both thinking if one tool is good then surely two would be doubly good.

There was a problem with the first try and I quickly narrowed the problem down to me. I have seen flares on copper before but not a double  wall so I really did have a clue of the goal. And of course the Harbor Freight while always a very entertaining puzzle was no actual help.  Not having an net connection at my shop I had to drive back home. A quick search resolved my problem. I thought the whole button went inside the tube, didn't realize there was a concaved bit inside.

My result was just a single flare, of course not what I wanted or you the Captain had in mind either.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now armed with infinite knowledge I'm off to the shop again. One thing I have noticed is this indeed may well be exactly what I want. The flare is very uniform. And I think I'll be able to easily control how far over the rim is turned as I won't want to go all the way. However it occurs to me that given no experience I shouldn't expect to know the result. So, therefore I am half cocked and again and ready to proceed.

And thank you good Captain for the offer of the machine shop and your talents. I would hate to impose so I will delay that until or unless absolutely necessary. But your experience is truly invaluable.

[Waterbug]

I tried rigid copper M and L. No go. The O.D. of the rigid is close to 5/8 so it did fit into the 5/8" clamp nicely. But the rounding over die was a touch too small.

Then I tried 1/2 copper tubing, O.D. is 1/2. This fit in the 1/2" clamp and the die fit. However, I think the tube wall is too thick. The die has a post that goes inside the tube and that post barely fits, so there is little to no room to round over into, if that makes sense. I basically just crushed the wall.

From my light Goggling it seems people talk about using this for brake lines. Maybe brake lines have a thinner wall? The 0.025" wall on the copper seems too thick for the dies unless I'm using them wrong. I will research more.

I also tried some 7/16" brass tube, 0.014" wall, half that of the copper. That didn't fit in the 1/2" clamp very well and didn't seen to want to deform at all. Perhaps I will get some 1/2" brass tube tomorrow. The cost just for the brass would be about $0.18 per key, $18 for an entire keyboard. I'm sure I could get it cheaper, but I'm already pretty close to the cost of typewriter keys.

I also had a grommet tool which has a die of sorts which fit the 1/2 rigid perfect. I hammered a piece into it and it did round over nicely, but only a bit as the die is much too shallow. But it certainly seem doable with the right die. But making the die would seem to be trial and error without being an engineer in this line.

[Captain Quinlin Hopkins]

Yes, commonly used for brake or transmission lines in autos.  A .030" thick wall should not be an issue, as I did thicker steel lines on my transmission just a few weeks ago with this particular tool.  Setting your tubing in to the proper height makes a large difference.  It should extend beyond the clamp by the height of the lip of the die being used.  I think these have a main surface thickness of around .150", but don't have it in front of me.  

I can't recall, is one side of the clamp flat, and the other have a chamfer? or do both sides have the flare?  If they were flat the tube would curl in more, instead of trying to push out.  
At least you do get the concept now.  And yes, the grommet tool is indeed a die that can properly bend the tubing out.  You might search for other grommet tools of the proper size for a commercial answer, short of a purpose built die.  

If you were to have a clamp with straight walls, a mandrel(the sticking up portion of your die that fits inside the tube)....  bah..let me work up something in cad to show you, back in a second.  

Edit:  This is similar to the grommet die you have and a very simple solution to your current needs.  All you have to do is pick a diameter and a radius that your material can actually bend at, and you're golden.  Purple on bottom is the stationary plate.  Red on top would attach to your arbor press.  A small groove on the lower plate should keep the bottom from mushrooming out.  Hard tooling on both sides of your part will give you rather consistent finished product.  

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Waterbug]

Your information that 0.030" wall thickness should work keeps from going down one wrong path. I was convinced that was the problem. Perhaps I am not preparing the tube correctly although I haven't seen any overly complex instructions in that regard.

I did have the tube sticking up about 0.180", so that sounds about right.

The clamp is flat on one side and chamfered on the other. I was using the chamfered side. But your point is well made on the flat side helping keep the walls from blowing outwards.

Also, I did oil both die and tube as I saw suggested on some sights.

[Waterbug]

I found superior instructions from another manufacturer. Here is their diagram.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

These instructions also say copper up to a wall thickness of .040" is allowed so I should be good there.

Figure 4 shows the tubing after the first step and its wall has deformed outward. Also note the post of the black die inside the tube fills, or nearly fills the side of the tube and would stop the tube from rolling inward. It seems to me the post is there to keep the die square and that is why it must fill the inside. This was my exact experience, so perhaps there is no issue. It is what it is.

I've learned a couple of things so far. First, this tool has no problem deforming the target metal type and thickness.

Secondly, the wall thickness on the copper at even .025" is starting to look way too thick for use in keys. By the time the roll is complete I think the inside diameter would be reduced too much. I hadn't considered this before but now it is becoming obvious. But of course given the right die and pressure copper could be deformed like a rivet head rather than any roll at all.

I still like the copper. Perhaps no roll is needed at all, or at least a modified roll. My original diagrams with the threaded keys showed more of a blending over than a roll. I may try chamfering the outside of the tube to a great degree and use the non-chamfered side of the clamp and a smaller die size, so the post yields more space, to see if I can get the wall to move inward. Long term I could reduce the diameter of that post just near the base to give room for movement inward while leaving the rest of post diameter for proper die alignment.

What is bothering me greatly is I have a lathe, purchased a year ago just for making these keys, and I have made little use of it. It has intimidated me I am ashamed to admit. I think I should have produced proper dies long ago. As dies go this should be butt simple.

[Miles (a sailor)Martin]

have you checked out Linsay's publications web site , i think that the Accurate Tool Work book or the Sheet metal pattern making could have the info you are looking for.
                                       Miles (a sailor)Martin

[Waterbug]

Great site I had not known, Linsay's Technical Books. I find these older books much easier to learn from and much more practical for my limited shop. Modern books generally assume a better shop and experience than I have. I will get Accurate Tool Work and look for others. Thank you Miles.

[Miles (a sailor)Martin]

No problem my good fellow , glad to be of  assistance
                                       Miles (a sailor)Martin

[Spotteh]

To Waterbug,

Copper Tarnishes really fast, in fact, if you dont laquer it right after polishing, it ill turn icky black pretty quickly, in less then a week. But I love the rosy pink of polished copper.

If you can invert the flare with the flaring device, then that would be amazing! I hope you can figure it out! As i Said before, i need to pause do to my financial situation.

Thick Tubing is hard to use. I tried so many times ith the tubing you can pick up at loes or homedepot. Its far too thick. Since all the kys I have seen are less then half a milimeter thick, I suggest fallowing suit. Small Parts sells a verity of metal tubing, so i would suggest looking there.

Look for something from 1/2 to 5/8s inches thick, with a all less then a milimeter thick.

Aluminum, Brass, and copper ould probably be the best metals to used, becuase when polished they all look nice.

[Waterbug]

Spotteh,

Good to see you back, I was starting to worry.

I like all phases of copper from the green through to the bright depending on the application. For keys I can see both the bright and patina being good choices. My current preference is natural patina. I can see these keys getting dark on the sides and staying bright where touched and that beautiful gradient inbetween. And the idea of different keys tarnishing differently depending on how often used tickles me. Like tracks on the keyboard. I would start with polished, no coating, and let time takes its course which works well for copper because as you said, doesn't take long. But of course there's no problem going back and forth between lacquered and natural if one was unhappy or bored with either look.

I would be more enchanted with lacquer if it didn't darken or reduce the luster of polished copper and brass. But of course on the other hand, as you said, that luster seems to only last moments.

I understand what you mean about wall thickness. The wall does have to be thin for a roll like the old typewriters. I did try some 0.014" walled brass tube. For some reason I couldn't get it to deform at all, but I had the wrong diameter, 9/16". It didn't fit in the 1/2" clamp properly. But given the shape of these dies there doesn't seem to be a way to flare inward no matter.

I am now also concerned about the inside edge. Whatever is done the result has to be very uniform which I think is an issue with rolling. I am becoming more and more convinced that custom dies are need. I don't think they have to be very complex as I have drawn some and also I have zero experience. Nothing looks complex when one doesn't know what one is talking about.

A plus of thick wall copper is it does deform well under small pressures. I'm thinking the entire head should deform and fill the die rather than just rolling. The same way the head of a rivet is formed only half a head, inside out.

I do curse you Spotteh for putting back onto this obsession.

You are smart to heed your financial situation and not waste too much effort on this folly as I have. I too should, and hopefully will, pause again as I am suppose to be getting a home ready for my wife who has already been very patient. No good comes from pushing wives or finances to the brink.

My next step in making dies will be a large step for me and require a lot of practice and time. So I should wait until my house is in order first. I will post images of my die ideas to see if anyone can point out improvements or issues. Do you still have access to presses? If I made dies is there some shape or something needed to fit into your press? I think even a manual press would work, but maybe not.

In the mean time I will acquire proper technical books, study, and dream of the perfectly shaped rims.

As a side note, I spoke with my neighbor Dr Nick who is better than 3/4 of a century, a physicist, a had a factory back in the day that made metal trash cans and other objects. So he was explaining how his machines worked. He says to me "why don't you just get the original dies"? Well for one, they are 50 to 100 years old. This does not phase Dr Nick as he has older shirts. Second, who do I call? Dr Nick has some connections in Woodstock Ill and will get back to me.

Perhaps Captian Hopkins will beat me to the punch (sorry) and whip out some cracker dies on one of his fine machines. I can surface hard them if need be which should be OK for copper. But I know he is very busy too.

[rovingjack]

I'm of the opinion that maybe an easier way might be to simply get a staight tube get glass lenses, letter plates, and back fastener.  or something build a stack of keys in the tube. Set it in a lathe. and turn the keys out that way.

not well described and some steps are omitted but you probably get the idea.

[Narsil]

I stille think you;re beter off casting them

[Miles (a sailor)Martin]

 Mr.waterbug where abouts are you living , I'm in new mexico, own a lathe and might be able to make a set of round dies that you could mount in a drill press to form the rolled edge. the materials i have available at this time for such an endeavor are 1018 cold rolled steel for the base, .5 drill steel rod for the punch personal message me if these materials would work , my guess as to the weight of the finshed parts would be 10 to 12 ounces max.
                                                                  Miles (a sailor)Martin

[Waterbug]

Mr Jack, I think you are right. Some steps omitted and unfortunately I didn't get the idea. If you cared to explain further I would be appreciative.

Mr Narsil, If I had a foundry then I'd be casting away. Someday I hope to. I do think one could make an interesting pattern on the key sides with a cast. The mold would not be simple I think. Pretty thin wall. But if you knew of a way...

Mr Martin, I am in Phoenix. Your assistance would be invaluable to me.

[Spotteh]

A Lathe may work, it would certainly make polishing easier, but as for bending, I dont know. My lathe (a relic form my grandfather) met its end years ago when i was wee little kid. ^Test it out, however, the results may be worth while!

To waterbug,

0.014 is the best, because that is about 0.3 mm, which is the relative thickness of most keys. Studying is perhaps the most important part, I will visit the patent office, or perhaps find a way of contacting Singer or Brother (I believe both still make sewing machines) and try to see if they will dig up the old blue prints. I will also check out Yahoo Groups, maybe there is a few sources to tap.

I hope your Neighbor can assist us, He sounds like he can walk the walk.

To Narsil,

I wouldn't mind casting, if I could easily ensure uniformity. How Ever i don't think my dice lie there.


Comeon fine chaps! We are getting there! Think of this, It seems as if a right of passage for one to steampunk their key board, becuase its easy, and you can get really crative, however it is expensive, 150-200 dollars for the keys alone! Perhaps the keys can be synthesized, and if they can, buttons would be easier to get! And even then, maybe we can chase those Key castrating crafters off ebay!

I am going to experiment with thicker tube a bit more, this time i am going to try smaller rims, at a higher temperature.

Best of luck everyone! I can almost taste the typewritery goodness!
 

[Waterbug]

higher temperature

I didn't know there was any heating used in the processes?

I would be surprised if a patent search revealed anything about keys. Pretty standard manufacturing was used. But still, it would be an interesting document.

I would also be surprised if Dr Nick came through. Then again, I wouldn't be overly surprised if a flat bed appeared at my door with a 40 ton press and a full set of dies with Dr Nick saying "where do you want it". His is a character.

Good luck to you also sir and I look forward to the results.

[rovingjack]

okay I haven't got actual measurements to work with but:

say you glass key tops are 1 unit thick. you have a letter sticker and then a small snape or shaped button back all three being four units in diameter. you then slip them into a tube of copper or brass (zinc or nickle plate later for differant finishes). Then slip into the tube a spacer bead or washer that is three units in diameter or less but centered with wax to adhere to the back of the button. the spacer sould be one to two units thick. then repeat process again with glass keytop on the spacer and letter folloed by back and another spacer. fill the length of tube like this. Then by turning on a lathe you can deform the metal into the gap caused by diameter differances of the spacers and the keys themselves. The lip is formed by this on the top of the glass and the bottom of the base plate.

Then either on the lathe or after revoving it the individual keyes are cut away from one another through the spacers.and buffed smooth.

It's sort of like the technique they use to shape bell horns for musical instruments. only you are making a series of them and forming them to hold tight against the object inside. It would allow you to also vary the backing as desired for differant applications.

[TheGumbieCat]

you know their is a woman on etsy that sells type writer keys ...and she gets them from her husband that has a company that refurbishes old typewriters to go to Africa for people to use in offices etc... when they fix up the type writer the Africans like them to replace they old ones with plastic keys because they like the way they feel better... if you want i can try to look her up for you.

[Waterbug]

Mr Jack, I think I understand. It sounds good but in practice I don't believe I could pull off such a feat. And if I could I'm not sure the rim would be to my liking if I have a proper mental image. The rounded shape of the ring that cradles one's digits is at the heart of a key's beauty.