Would YOU?

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

All residential building on farm land must have a farm related purpose otherwise it comes under full planning permission which in the UK would be very hard to get, but not impossible.

Which is why, officially, everyone would be employed by the ("Victorian Museum") farm estate and their steamy jobs would be "crafts"

Tell the council you are building a village and they go stoney....tell them the farm remains but is diversifying into being a museum and they will be far more open

I like your thinking here.

All I need now is to be struct by lightening 3 times and buy a lottery ticket

I should think a more realistic manner would be to draw up business plans, gather investment capital, and get a business loan or the like.

... or is "all I have to do is win the lottery" some sort of code for "it's a nice idea but no one will actually put in the effort to make it a reality"? 

It would be a lot easier if it were not beholden to banks.....

[markf]

Would you move to a steampunk city if one were to be created? A city made up of lofts atop workshops and stores; of three story buildings outlining narrow streets and alleyways; of messengers instead of email, and street performers instead of MTV; no cars or modern looking buildings? All Victorian. All steampunk. Would you? Curious to hear disagreement and/or YOUR idea of the perfect city

I would not move here because (for me at least) it would not be a steampunk city.  Victorian for sure, but such a place as described would be steampunk only in terms of the overall architectural background.  My steampunk town would be laced with steamy 'modern' technology with updated/retro science componentry: no email or human messengers, but some sort of mechanical routing system for moving messages quickly (a la pneumatic tubes); no modern cars but instead trucks, busses, bikes, & cars powered by steam/air compression/springs; etc.  I'd be ready to move to a purpose-built steampunk town, but not to one that was simply a re-enactment of Victoriana alone. markf

[stardust]

... or is "all I have to do is win the lottery" some sort of code for "it's a nice idea but no one will actually put in the effort to make it a reality"?  

i would put the effort in about five years down the line from now, but there's no way i'd do it now. i want to know that the interest would last. so i'd want to study the market for a long time.

[Isabella Stormrift]

Would you move to a steampunk city if one were to be created? A city made up of lofts atop workshops and stores; of three story buildings outlining narrow streets and alleyways; of messengers instead of email, and street performers instead of MTV; no cars or modern looking buildings? All Victorian. All steampunk. Would you? Curious to hear disagreement and/or YOUR idea of the perfect city

I would not move here because (for me at least) it would not be a steampunk city.  Victorian for sure, but such a place as described would be steampunk only in terms of the overall architectural background.  My steampunk town would be laced with steamy 'modern' technology with updated/retro science componentry: no email or human messengers, but some sort of mechanical routing system for moving messages quickly (a la pneumatic tubes); no modern cars but instead trucks, busses, bikes, & cars powered by steam/air compression/springs; etc.  I'd be ready to move to a purpose-built steampunk town, but not to one that was simply a re-enactment of Victoriana alone. markf

I think that realistically speaking, even what you're proposing here would be a miss. While the tube idea for messages is a thought that had crossed my own mind... the infrastructure involved would be a nightmare. What about adding onto it as it grows? How to control which building in the community a message goes to? etc, etc. Are steampowered cars/carriages/whathaveyou actually feasible, even just for within a small community? I'm not the most mechanically/scientifically minded in an average group of people, much less this fine collection, so I could be overreacting to the complexity, but while as a fantasy that sounds marvelous, I just don't see it happening realistically.

[OswaldBastable]

What we need is a member to become a millionaire, build a model village (in itself a very 18th/19th century thing to do) and rent out housing to his/her fellow Steamers.

I can dream

though If I ever win that sort of money (yea right) I woulkd seriously do something along these lines

[Dr. Oliver Cross]

This is quite true, but the fact remains, dark as that fact may be, that banks are in control of the economy as it now exists.  Unless one of us finds ourselves independently wealthy enough to operate such an idea entirely of our own capital, we'll need external input, if only in the initial financial impetus stage of things.  Buying out the banks quickly would be a very good idea, of course, but we dare not look a source of funding in the mouth simply because it may not fit the aesthetic ideal we're aiming toward.

That said... perhaps land in the United States may be more toward our acquisitioning abilities?  I've located a 160 acre vineyard in The Dalles, Oregon, for 1.2 million dollars, a 97.5 acre plot in Malheur County, Oregon for $700,000, and a one THOUSAND acre plot in central Oregon for four million dollars US, which comes equipped with a 2,500 sq. ft. solar-powered home which, although it seems externally to be a bit modern, inside it looks remarkably similar to the Chief Factor's House at Fort Vancouver, which as a Hudson's Bay Company fort in the 1840's certainly fits to our target, no?  Also, a forested 1,160 acre plot in the same state for $850,000, with a functional cabin on site.

I've also found a grazing ranch in eastern Oregon which is currently used for cattle.  They want four million US for it.  It's ten thousand acres....

(Conversion scale: One hectare = 2.47 acres.  So, for example... 10,000 acres = 4047 hectares, give or take a few sq. metres.)

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

What we need is a member to become a millionaire, build a model village (in itself a very 18th/19th century thing to do) and rent out housing to his/her fellow Steamers.

I can dream

though If I ever win that sort of money (yea right) I woulkd seriously do something along these lines

A little like Blists Hill: http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=blists%20hill&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

[MechanicalMouse]

I think that realistically speaking, even what you're proposing here would be a miss. While the tube idea for messages is a thought that had crossed my own mind... the infrastructure involved would be a nightmare. What about adding onto it as it grows? How to control which building in the community a message goes to? etc, etc. Are steampowered cars/carriages/whathaveyou actually feasible, even just for within a small community? I'm not the most mechanically/scientifically minded in an average group of people, much less this fine collection, so I could be overreacting to the complexity, but while as a fantasy that sounds marvelous, I just don't see it happening realistically.

My thoughts with my circular village modern conveyances would be kept in a secure area on the outskirts on the village, and used when going out side the village. Internal transport would be done of foot, bicycle or something fitting to the surrounding. I thinks the power source for such a vehicle should be sensible either infernal combustion or electric, but should look the part.

You're not over reacting to the complexity of the design though. There would be a dramatic overhead in keeping the atmosphere correct.

As for expansion, I would prefer to make a satellite settlement in a similar design and have a connection between the two.

While the thought of making it a reality is lovely the harsh reality of raising the capitol to build such a venture is daunting and doubtful.

The terms of any loan would effectively double the initial construction cost. In order to pay it off, the houses would have to be sold at a premium placing it well outside the means of the target community.

The only way it could work is if the those funding the venture did so out of a genuine interest in the project rather than seeing it as away to make money.

Maybe if Richard Branson turned out to be a closet Steampunk.

[Isabella Stormrift]

... or is "all I have to do is win the lottery" some sort of code for "it's a nice idea but no one will actually put in the effort to make it a reality"?  

i would put the effort in about five years down the line from now, but there's no way i'd do it now. i want to know that the interest would last. so i'd want to study the market for a long time.

In the past 7 years I've been involved with various online communities, the idea of a commune of those of similar aesthetics/mentalities banding together has cropped up at least 5 times per year in each club or what have you. I've only been a member here for I believe two days now? So I cannot speak as far as the frequency with which the idea circulates here.

However, there's a certain pattern to the ideas which get thrown about. It gets brought up almost wistfully, a "wouldn't it be nice if" sort of suggestion. Then several others immediately jump on board. More often than not those most vocal in support at first are those with the least to offer the community (I may be guilty of this myself- as much as I'd like to see this sort of thing happen, I'm sure at least half the people can cook/clean/sew, etc, and more besides). Then those with experience in the particulars speak up, presenting problems with details. Problem solvers begin to come up with solutions. Compromises are made. Someone points out that these communities tend to dissolve over internal strife. Problem solvers begin to approach actual theoretical solutions to the theoretical problems. The idea begins to sound feasible, the idealists begin to gain hope.... then the whole thing collapses in a cloud of "well as soon as I win the lottery."

...so perhaps I should start a thread for those looking at it from a "make it a reality" point of view, even just to hit that think-tank phase? This is always the confusing part to me... do people REALLY want to do it, or just sigh fondly over the image?

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

...so perhaps I should start a thread for those looking at it from a "make it a reality" point of view, even just to hit that think-tank phase? This is always the confusing part to me... do people REALLY want to do it, or just sigh fondly over the image?

In a similar vein....what level of practical (rather than purely aesthetic) steampunkyness is actually technologically feasible? I mean, given the only fuel sources as wind, steam and clockwork, and only using pre-1900s materials, what would be practically achievable in terms of level of technology and what would be pure "cloud cookoo land"?

[Dr. Oliver Cross]

I cannot speak for anyone else, (well, I could, but that would be indefensibly rude), however for myself, I do indeed truly want to do this.  Indeed, my mother, my fiancee, and I have been not simply wanting to do this but writing out business proposals, looking into land acquisition, and running cost-benefit analyses on this precise type of idea for a good two years now.  We've come to the theory that, were we to run it in conjunction with a permanent facility which could provide an external stream of income, (we've been looking into a hippotherapy centre (horse therapy), as my mother is a hippotherapist), we can indeed do this, provided we have enough initial starting capital to acquire the land and convert it.  We figure an initial outlay of roughly two million dollars US should have us up and running.  Indeed, some of our papers have the costs as low as nine hundred thousand.

[Isabella Stormrift]

...so perhaps I should start a thread for those looking at it from a "make it a reality" point of view, even just to hit that think-tank phase? This is always the confusing part to me... do people REALLY want to do it, or just sigh fondly over the image?

In a similar vein....what level of practical (rather than purely aesthetic) steampunkyness is actually technologically feasible? I mean, given the only fuel sources as wind, steam and clockwork, and only using pre-1900s materials, what would be practically achievable in terms of level of technology and what would be pure "cloud cookoo land"?

Is that really the goal? Actual true reverting to steam/wind/clockwork power? As I understood it the generally accepted idea was a blending of the two- keeping modern conveniences such as computers and indoor plumbing, but using steam type resources when "feasible" for things such as.... to be honest, I'm not quite sure :O

Dr. Oliver-

I too, would truely love to be a part of a community such as this. Have you explored it from the "tourism" angle? or merely the hippotherapy? are the two incompatible? I'm not incredibly familiar with that precisely that entails.

[MechanicalMouse]

...so perhaps I should start a thread for those looking at it from a "make it a reality" point of view, even just to hit that think-tank phase? This is always the confusing part to me... do people REALLY want to do it, or just sigh fondly over the image?

For me its more or less a thought experiment. I like to think how it could work as a  physical construction and social group.

I believe it would be possible to get sufficient funding to build it, though I don't think i have the "gift of the Gab" to sway such venture capitalist. However as I stated, once built, it would be out side the range of the target audience.

We would end up with a new topic on Brass Goggles "Steampunk Village" with people say they could buy a house there when they win the lottery.


I'm not shooting down your wish, and can see your point.

I think, from your posts you would be more interested in making a smaller scale steampunk community. Now that is in the range of possibility.

Upto a dozen families working together on a steampunk commune, is very feasable. But it wouldn't be a full town or even a village. It would be a commune, shared living areas, using modern green cheap building techniques.

Oh and it would be a LOT easier to do outside the old world. America, Australia and the like where land cost cheap and planning control is not as restrictive.

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

Is that really the goal? Actual true reverting to steam/wind/clockwork power? As I understood it the generally accepted idea was a blending of the two- keeping modern conveniences such as computers and indoor plumbing, but using steam type resources when "feasible" for things such as.... to be honest, I'm not quite sure :O

I wasnt suggesting dumping the aetherweb  But rather asking what is actually achievable using "purely" pre-1900s means and what would need post 1900 stuff (technical term that) to work. A community based primarily on a surface aesthetic (non-functional cogs etc) would almost certainly never get off the ground (even IN an airship ). To work, it would need something deeper, such as a "if it can be practically achieved using steam/clockwork/wind/brass/wood then we use that and not modern means" ethic.

[akumabito]

Maybe if Richard Branson turned out to be a closet Steampunk.

He loves airships. We should send him an email. And I am only slighlty joking..

[Isabella Stormrift]

MechanicalMouse-
Actually, to be quite frank, the whole "get off the grid", "self sufficient" thing seems impractical to me. A good goal but... not something we would be able to do straight away at all. While the small commune would definitely appeal, the specifics of a steampunk community feels like it would open the opportunity for something larger.

 The reason I was even entertaining the idea of a large scale "city" was the idea of tourism. Folks coming through to experience the "fantasy" of it, be they our fellow steampunks or otherwise. I can think of a good 10 people I know who aren't into steampunk (as far as they know) who'd be interested in experiencing that sort of thing as a vacation or the sort. And if I know 10 people, those people likely know 10 people, etc etc. (Clearly not the most well thought out demographic, but this is all in the realm of brainstorming at the moment ) In this way, we could have at least a surface barter system for permanent residents; we would be "hiring" inhabitants as part of the attraction, thereby hopefully reducing the costs of housing, etc, if not eliminated altogether for the individuals; we could produce gadgetry, jewelry, clothing for outsiders, etc which could be sold to the "outsiders" as souvenirs or general steampunk equipment, etc.

Sir Henry-

I see! Yes, the "let's slap a cog on it, now it's steampunk" type aesthetic would get us nowhere. Lead Zeppelin, etc, etc. I think to define what would be doable through our pre-1900s tech would require deliniating what would be required of technology one way or another... or is that too broad? I'm thinking along the lines of sewing machines and the like, but that's just the slant of my niche talking, I do think.

[MechanicalMouse]

A community based primarily on a surface aesthetic (non-functional cogs etc) would almost certainly never get off the ground (even IN an airship ). To work, it would need something deeper, such as a "if it can be practically achieved using steam/clockwork/wind/brass/wood then we use that and not modern means" ethic.

I agree, there would have to be a high degree of function, but be realist on what can and can not be done.

Wind/Water power would look great and be useful, a huge steam engine driving a time in the centre of town for power while very cool, would be an evil monster to maintain.

[Dr. Oliver Cross]

...so perhaps I should start a thread for those looking at it from a "make it a reality" point of view, even just to hit that think-tank phase? This is always the confusing part to me... do people REALLY want to do it, or just sigh fondly over the image?

In a similar vein....what level of practical (rather than purely aesthetic) steampunkyness is actually technologically feasible? I mean, given the only fuel sources as wind, steam and clockwork, and only using pre-1900s materials, what would be practically achievable in terms of level of technology and what would be pure "cloud cookoo land"?

Is that really the goal? Actual true reverting to steam/wind/clockwork power? As I understood it the generally accepted idea was a blending of the two- keeping modern conveniences such as computers and indoor plumbing, but using steam type resources when "feasible" for things such as.... to be honest, I'm not quite sure :O

Dr. Oliver-

I too, would truely love to be a part of a community such as this. Have you explored it from the "tourism" angle? or merely the hippotherapy? are the two incompatible? I'm not incredibly familiar with that precisely that entails.

Indeed we had.  Basically, it would be a two-fold property.  Roughly twenty acres of it would be the riding centre (they're not actually all that big), and the remaining 65 acres -- we've been looking at 80 acre plots mostly -- would be the village.  The village would have a tourist centre, if we were to do the tourist side of things rather than only selling our goods into the outer world through the internet, and would also have room for roughly a five street by five street grid with housing, shops, and manufactories dispersed therein.  We'd probably have a residential capacity of roughly fifty people to start, give or take about fifteen.  Mind, all of this is based on an eighty-acre plot.  If we go with the ten THOUSAND acre plot I mentioned in a previous post... well, ten thousand acres is roughly the size of Southampton!

As for where the aesthetic lines would be drawn... I'd personally go with a 'keep it visibly Victorian' rule, outside of our private areas of our homes.  Inside the private areas, which would most likely include our small craft shops, (but not our 'public' craft shops, as it were, where we demonstrate our arts), I'd say anything goes, as those are personal space.  Do people agree?

[Miss Genevieve Gale]

I'm quite certain I could live without cars, automatic dishwashers (as well as clothing-washers-and-dryers), television, and even modern plumbing.
But I don't know that I could do without the internet and my cellular phone at this point. They make my antisocial tendencies a little less debilitating.

Ditto

[MechanicalMouse]

I think a residential "Steampunk World" would be very possible in the States.
The absolute killer this side of the pond is land cost and planning control.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are already large scale re-enactment towns in the States?

Also while we're on the Topic, what are your thoughts on conformance.

I remember Disney once made a town (Celebration or something), and the residents required to sign contracts to control conformance on their behaviour and appearance.

[OswaldBastable]

Dr Oliver,
yes thats a bit more practical to my mind; you would have to balance the idealism with practicality and also remembering its not a Victorian living village so there would and should be things out of the normal historic context

[OswaldBastable]

I think a residential "Steampunk World" would be very possible in the States.
The absolute killer this side of the pond is land cost and planning control.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are already large scale re-enactment towns in the States?

Also while we're on the Topic, what are your thoughts on conformance.

I remember Disney once made a town (Celebration or something), and the residents required to sign contracts to control conformance on their behaviour and appearance.

Mr Mouse, oooo thats a can of worms and no mistake; as of course it would involve someone somewhere deciding what 'is' steampunk and what isnt; I wouldnt fancy that job!

Also was this town featured in Shrek? 

[Miss Genevieve Gale]

All Victorian. All steampunk

Hmmm..lemme think.
Does it come with diphtheria, rickets, tuberculosis, child labour, house servants, no votes for women, dark santanic mills, pea souper fogs and capital punishment?

In the SCA we say that we are representing the Middle Ages "as they should have been".
We can have the Victorian era as it should have been.

[Dr. Oliver Cross]

Miss Gale, better words have never yet been spoken on this topic.  And as a proud SCA member myself, I can't imagine why I didn't consider that....

On the topic of determining what 'is' and 'isn't' steampunk, I would push for a council, consisting at first of all residents, and when and if the place grows too large for consensus rulings an elected council, that would determine such a thing.  A city council, basically.

In other words, if we're going to be a functional village, should we not have a mayor and council?

[Isabella Stormrift]

Dr. Oliver-
That sounds like almost EXACTLY what I had in mind. As for "visibly Victorian" I assume you mean in technology level, not exactly historical accuracy, is this correct?


MechanicalMouse-
There ARE already large scale re-enactment towns over here, I referenced one earlier. Colonial Williamsburg is nearly frightening in its scale. http://history.org/

The Disney town is in fact Celebration, it's not too far from me, actually. The residents had to sign those contracts as they were basically considered employees of Disney for the purposes of ambiance. If we're approaching this from a potential tourism idea, we may need a sort of guideline, but it will more likely be along the lines of "steampunk here, these areas can have modern apparel" etc. No formal defining of what "qualifies" as steampunk, because we don't want to get into THAT fight.