Would YOU?

[Theophilus Saxe]

its a defunkt little township, my good friend and fellow steampunk has a family farm there that is a quarter of a mile section, the town has almost no one in it anymore, leaving the population center of norton as the nearest real town, there are a couple of rusting grain elevators, the afore mentioned old mill and a number of homes in the area... truly im sure there is something there to meet anyone's needs...
 lots for sale in the area and cheap is the word...

Interesting. The way I feel about the modern world at the moment I could well go for something like this. My only quibble is, it's in the middle of a very rural area. If something went wrong, we'd be out on a limb.

[Caine]

I'm glad to see that I can go on hiatus (from the internet, not BG), and this idea is still just as alive and well as when I left.

I am still VERY into this idea, and here are my two cents at the moment:

The best way to get the ball rolling on this project (in my opinion) is to begin with some form of cohabitation, be it a neighborhood, apartment building, farm, or what have you. It seems that most of you, my fellow steampunks, have no issue making a living for yourself, and those of us who are a bit wet behind the ears still (myself included) are hopefully all on our way to joining the working class as well. Before we worry about fairs, or income sharing, or schools, or any of these things we need to start at the root, which is getting ourselves together and establishing ourselves all in one place. Once all those interested in living in the same general locale and have figured out their individual living situations within the community, we can look for ways to combine our forces outside of merely living in proximity. Now, the first priority will be deciding what part of the country to move to. For the purposes of this I'm going to use this regional map of the country (for no other reason than that I like the way it's set up). Let us take a look at the pros and cons of each region. I will remind you, fair readers, that this is all based on my personal knowledge and experience and is not infallible, so please correct me if I am wrong about anything, and feel free to add your thoughts.

First, let us take a look at the Pros of the West: The West is a rather wonderfully accepting place. While we're not exactly a radical group, our group could draw some unwanted attention in some parts of the country, but for the most part we wouldn't have to worry about this in the West. The West is also a beautiful part of the country. The biggest con to the West is that all the areas that exemplify the acceptance and beauty I spoke of are also very expensive places to buy property and live, which is a major obstacle for this project.

If we look at the Southwest, the biggest Pro is the availability of reasonably priced land. The Southwest also has a lot of areas of low-population density, which could be a pro or a con depending on how you look at it. The biggest con to the Southwest is a the weather. The Southwest does not have traditional seasons like the rest of the country, and the weather of the Southwest all but rules out the possibility of the Steampunk farm. Also: Texas sucks

The biggest pro of the Midwest would be that it's a beautiful part of the country with plenty of great farming opportunities. There are also many places in the Midwest that are liberal enough to easily accept and accommodate our group. The biggest con to the Midwest is that the Midwest is an economically challenging part of the country. Even before the recession finding a job in the Midwest was not easy, and while some parts of the Midwest might be better than others, it would require a lot of research to figure out where the most economically stable places are, and they might not be anywhere that we particularly want to be.

I'm going to group the Mid-Atlantic and New England together and just call it New England for the purposes of this. The biggest pro to the New England area is that it's a historically rich area that would have the potential to provide a lot of opportunities for Steampunks we might not have other places. However, New England suffers from extreme weather, and is also another particularly expensive place to try to set this up.

The last area is the South. Parts of the South are very beautiful, and great for farming, which is a definite pro. Another pro to the South is the availability of reasonably priced property to live/build/whatever on. The biggest con to the South is the possibility of total social rejection. Social deviance is much more easily achieved in parts of the south than other parts of the country.

Personal opinion: if it were up to make to make a unilateral decision my first choice would be North Carolina, because it's a reasonably liberal state with a great climate, a decent economic situation, and plenty of available property at reasonable prices. Other states I wouldn't mind are Colorado, Washington (state), Ohio, New Mexico, Virginia or Arizona.


The next question is Rural, Semi-Rural, or Urban?

Rural living would make the idea of the Steampunk farm very easy, and the availability of a large chunk of reasonably priced Rural land is a lot better than the availability of a large portion of reasonably priced Urban landscape. However, Rural living could make it very hard for some Steampunks to make their living, go to school, or be a part of other social interaction outside of our community (like you would need any!).

Semi-Rural, such as in a small town, has some of the advantages of Rural living, while providing more potential for jobs and social activity. The issue with Semi-Rural living is that the further in you get the more hoops you have to jump through to build and do what you want. Building restrictions could create a lot of problems for us. Also, Semi-Rural living still does not provide all the social benefits of Urban living.

Urban living gives us the full advantages of social networking and employment opportunities, however, the cost of urban living, and the limitations on what we could build and do are greater.

Personal opinion: living rural requires a much more concrete plan, but gives us a lot of opportunity to create a strong community on our own terms, which is why living reasonably close to, but not in, a large city would make the most sense to me.


The next question is Neighborhood, Apartment (or True Cohabitation), or Farm?

Having a Steampunk Neighborhood would be an expensive and not particularly cost effective option, however, it provides the potential for a very enjoyable and easily long term situation.

Having a Steampunk Apartment Building or other form of True Cohabitation living presents a large cost at the start, but a lower cost of living from then on. Depending on how we model this and where we set it up it could prove to be a very effective way of establishing a strong community bond, without relying on each other completely.

The Steampunk Farm option means very much so establishing a strong community, and dedicating oneself to that from the start, but could be a good option for the cost, and agreeable to a lot of people.

Personal Opinion: I believe that the stronger the community the better, and that all three forms of living have interchangeable parts. Some sort of Cohabitation option is my ideal for this reason.

The last question is Build or Buy.

If we Buy something we're paying more in the long run to have those houses, structures, or whatever pre-built for us as opposed to doing it ourselves, however, it makes it easy to get the ball rolling right away without necessarily having a lot of capital right away.

Building requires a lot of initial investment (you can't make payments on lumber), and a lot of initial work, but it would allow us to get exactly what we want with less long-term paying for it.

Personal Opinion: With the DIY attitude of the Steampunk community building seems like a pretty natural option, but it does require a lot of commitment.

So, my friends, comrades, gents and ladies, this is where we stand, as I see it. If we are taking this beyond the idea stage these are the questions we need to answer first, in my most humble opinion, to make this dream reality.

Hope my thoughts help!

[markf]

To get a better view of real estate prices in the rural USA, this site is a good place to start because of its very easy to use search engine. 

You can search nationwide or by state, then by acreage and/or price and/or residential vs business vs farm vs land only, etc.  You'll find some mighty cheap places in PA and West Virginia, but the Midwest probably wins that 'price is paramount' contest. markf   

http://www.unitedcountry.com

[MalContent]

I like the regional breakdown...however I would add that mid-atlcentantic and new england should be seperated out...having lived in MD and PA the weather is not nearly as harsh as further north....also the greatest pro to the mid-atlantic is that there are still parts that are very rural yet very close to large population centers...obviously the further west you go the further the distance between pop. centers.  The con to the mid-atlantic is price and amount of land...though central, western and northern PA is still very rural. 

I think ideally we would want something that is semi-rural...ie close enough to a pop. center as to be commercially viable.  If we are looking at a true SP town, settlement...than we will need to be able to generate income not only for ourselves but for the settlement as well....I don't think that we could forgo a profitable business idea and just begin to live close by or together.  A venture of this type needs income generation from the start...which in turns provides jobs...which in turn provides insentive for people to come an join.

Personally, for this to actually work a more detailed idea must be formulated.  A mission statement or vision statement if you will.  What exactly do we want from this plan.  Just a business were Steampunks can make money doing their own thing, a showcase of the genre for public tourism, a place to live but work elsewhere...lets define what we're after clearly and consicely than worry about location.  Purpose and intent will go a long way in dictating location and cost and need.

[Caine]

I like the regional breakdown...however I would add that mid-atlcentantic and new england should be seperated out...having lived in MD and PA the weather is not nearly as harsh as further north....also the greatest pro to the mid-atlantic is that there are still parts that are very rural yet very close to large population centers...obviously the further west you go the further the distance between pop. centers.  The con to the mid-atlantic is price and amount of land...though central, western and northern PA is still very rural.  

I think ideally we would want something that is semi-rural...ie close enough to a pop. center as to be commercially viable.  If we are looking at a true SP town, settlement...than we will need to be able to generate income not only for ourselves but for the settlement as well....I don't think that we could forgo a profitable business idea and just begin to live close by or together.  A venture of this type needs income generation from the start...which in turns provides jobs...which in turn provides insentive for people to come an join.

Personally, for this to actually work a more detailed idea must be formulated.  A mission statement or vision statement if you will.  What exactly do we want from this plan.  Just a business were Steampunks can make money doing their own thing, a showcase of the genre for public tourism, a place to live but work elsewhere...lets define what we're after clearly and consicely than worry about location.  Purpose and intent will go a long way in dictating location and cost and need.

While I see your concern, I would like to point out that groups of people regularly form intentional communities without a ton of capital. It's all about people pooling their resources together and looking for ways to share the needs of the community. It seems to me that the primary goal of this is to be able to live very intentionally with fellow steampunks, so the only sensible thing to do, in my mind, is build the community first and figure out how we can then use that community as a way to make money second. If this is not what other people have in mind then that is that, but this is what I envision as the primary goal and the best way to get the ball rolling.

Besides, my personal program of study is Sign Language, which isn't exactly a "Steampunk" profession. I imagine the community as where I will play, not necessarily where I will work. Even if some form of commercial venture comes about, I may or may not participate.

On regards to New England and the Mid-Atlantic, having never lived there, your opinions trump mine. It's the one part of the country I don't know particularly well.

[MalContent]

@ Caine....I too see you point on intentional groupings of people and totally agree....I guess what I am curious as to is...would said community be attempting to be a self sufficent entity ie. a place for people to live and work as steampunks...almost creating a steampunk world 24/7 or simply a place to go an visit on occasion and than return to "normal" life? 

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

I'm from CO so I'd vote for that - lots of urban places, lots of rural places, and everything in between. I'm also partial to having distinct seasons, and in particular cold ones, not least because Victorian garb is more suited to such climes. May I also note that Colorado has diverse employment options, and the cost of living can be very reasonable in some areas.

What would be interesting, though, would be to look at where steampunk concentration is high, and maybe cross-reference that to where cost of living is low and incomes are high. If there's a place that the 3 intersect, it might be ideal for such a venture.

Any idea about where to look for that kind of info (steampunk geographical locations in particular)? A super-rough estimate might be provided by looking at number of unique posters for each region here on BG, or perhaps in doing a google search of "steampunk 'insert state name'" and seeing which returned the highest number of results. Either way it is quite an ordeal...

Or, and I don't know if this is deemed to invasive for most, but we could ask Harold if he has access to visitor locations for this board - I run a few websites, and they track exactly how many visitors you've had, and where they come from. That might be enlightening as we consider where to go. It would be easier to start in an area that had a thriving steampunk community to begin with than it would be to try to build one from scratch.

[MalContent]

I like the idea of gathering the info....Google analytics makes a map tool that places peoples location...on the 501st legion site we use it...it is very simple....and it does not show exact info only what city you are in...I can ask our 501st webmaster for the info for it or perhaps our admins here already know of a better way to use it.

[Caine]

Yeah, figuring out where we all are would be a great start.

@Mal, my goal would be to make it a place to come home to at the end of the day, with the goal of eventual 24/7 steampunk life, however, even in this model there's no reason we couldn't have options for visitors. Rent a room for a month, a week, or a weekend, why not?

[Theophilus Saxe]

I think ideally we would want something that is semi-rural...ie close enough to a pop. center as to be commercially viable.  If we are looking at a true SP town, settlement...than we will need to be able to generate income not only for ourselves but for the settlement as well....I don't think that we could forgo a profitable business idea and just begin to live close by or together.  A venture of this type needs income generation from the start...which in turns provides jobs...which in turn provides insentive for people to come an join.

Personally, for this to actually work a more detailed idea must be formulated.  A mission statement or vision statement if you will.  What exactly do we want from this plan.  Just a business were Steampunks can make money doing their own thing, a showcase of the genre for public tourism, a place to live but work elsewhere...lets define what we're after clearly and consicely than worry about location.  Purpose and intent will go a long way in dictating location and cost and need.

I agree, such a community would need to be within easy traveling range of a reasonably large population center.

One thought that occurs to me. In the UK there's an excellent TV series called Grand Designs. Presenter Kevin McLeod visits home-building projects during the course of work and shows all the problems and pitfalls associated with it and the (generally) triumphant end result. No doubt something similar has aired here in the US. Could a nascent steampunk community attract the interest of a TV producer in like fashion? It would generate publicity and possibly attract funding even in these difficult times.

[mattig89ch]

It seems as though we're all leaning towards a sub-urban or rural setting.  There fore I would like to propose an option for you all.

You guys mentioned the south as an option (not a very favorable one).  So I would like to suggest New Orleans.  They're still recovering down there, and we could get some great deals on some pretty decent land.  The only major concern (from a broad point of view) is the hurricane season would be brutal.

Incidentally, Wile I like the idea of a steam punk farm, I don't see it a a viable option at this point.  Don't get me wrong, once we do get ourselves established in some area, then we could look into expanding into other areas, but we should really form a community some where before we do anything else.  Remember...there's strength in numbers.

but...thats my 2 cents.

[Theophilus Saxe]

Over at the UK equivalent of this thread there's been talk of gerrymandering a small community. I feel the underlying ethics are mixed. Should such a thing be done by steampunks, on the one hand we'd be muscling in on the lives of people whose families may have lived in the area of our chosen place for generations. They'd have their own way of doing things, and who are we to impose change? On the other hand, if the community is a failing one (which Edmond, KS seems to be) the influx of creative and innovative folk could be welcomed as revitalizing the community. Thoughts? Opinions?   

[MalContent]

Well I think the muscling in on a community fits very well with the steampunk ethos...ie British Imperialism and America's own Manifest Destiny.....okay okay...just joking...I think the ethics are something to look at least in seeing how a SP community could comfortably fits its self in with an existing community with as little disruption as possible....It would be ideal to have the surrounding community's support.  Though the influx of creative and intellegent people could be seen as a potential influx of money and business and in these hard economic times...that would be a very welcome thing.

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

I'm not a big fan of the farm idea - mainly because, from what I understand, farming is ludicrously hard work. I think aesthetic ideals and artistic visions would be abandoned because the constant labor requirements would suck up all of our time and energy. The self-sufficiency is a nice idea, but one that has more costs than benefits (IMO).

Starting small, and with something that has a large likelihood of success, would be better than planning big and creating nothing at all.

Perhaps we can see how the tea-house fares... if all goes well, it might be a reasonable idea for other steampunks with business ideas to start building in the area. Adding one business at a time would eventually create a steampunk district.

[mattig89ch]

Starting small, and with something that has a large likelihood of success, would be better than planning big and creating nothing at all.

Perhaps we can see how the tea-house fares... if all goes well, it might be a reasonable idea for other steampunks with business ideas to start building in the area. Adding one business at a time would eventually create a steampunk district.

We just have to make sure we don't completely take over the area.  I do think we should all seriously consider opening new buisnesses in our areas.  If I was employed and could find a steady stream of gears/tailors I think we could do very well near me.

incedently, does anyone live in or around port jeff on these forums (as far as I know there's only 1 port jeff in new york)?

[Dr Neko]

I would love to live in a steampunk city or town! Sadly I fear there would be little work for one such as myself. As one who is in school to be a Historian/ Teacher perhaps I could teach because my only other option is manuel labor or perhaps a machinists apprentice. The latter is because I once took a few semesters of Tool and Die courses prior to entering the History dept. If its located here in America why not along one of the little canals near Indiana and Ohio?

[von Corax]

I would love to live in a steampunk city or town! Sadly I fear there would be little work for one such as myself. As one who is in school to be a Historian/ Teacher perhaps I could teach ...

I should think a Steampunk community would place considerably more value on History and Education than Mundane communities do.

[MaxLibra]

Would you move to a steampunk city if one were to be created?

To say the least, does a bear take reading material into the woods?

Though I would purchase additional insurance with a lower deductible, on account of all the Mad Science running amok about the place.

[Gomez Darkholm]

I think a residential "Steampunk World" would be very possible in the States.
The absolute killer this side of the pond is land cost and planning control.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are already large scale re-enactment towns in the States?

Also while we're on the Topic, what are your thoughts on conformance.

I remember Disney once made a town (Celebration or something), and the residents required to sign contracts to control conformance on their behaviour and appearance.

  You are correct good sir.  It's a real community/town that was constructed as part of Walt Disney World, and it is indeed that restrictive.  As far as the whole Steampunk village idea I'm for it, and will happily run a local theater 

[dman762000]

Someone brought up the idea of a television show that deals with building mighht be interested in this project. Well here is a step further that may provide income for the community. The Discovery channel and TLC are very interested in reality tv these days. Perhaps a show idea could be pitched about building a themed village. They could follow several members and do their thing detailing everything from finding work to building houses, to setting up an economy. Might be an idea if this thing ever gets off writing and into real life.

[Polaris]

As kind of a mishmash reply to a few of the previous threads:

I'm not necessarily recommending this particular town, but as an example.... Here in PA, I believe there is still in action a policy of "eminent domain" where in if a property is abandoned and left to disrepair, another party or government office can simply take that property and revamp it- making it once more profitable. A believe there was some debate on the issue because Western Pa. ((and indeed W.Virginia, Ohio, and the surrounding area)) has alot of old coal mining towns. Towns that were mostly abandoned after the mines closed. A couple great Examples are Uniontown and Brownsville Pa. And while Uniontown's artist population is making a "blood sweat and nails" effort to revamp their town, Brownsville shows no signs of gentrification. It's just down there moldering.

It's only a hour or so from Pittsburgh ((A big popular city with alot of fairly stable jobs))is still fairly rural, and even without eminent domain laws, the real estate has got to be cheap.

If I were planning the whole thing, I would get ahold of a great deal of venture capitol/ government or institutional grants and sponsorship/support from wherever I could ((Contacting TLC, the Discovery Channel and all them about a show is a great start)) Collect a group of people and begin quietly buying up the property under the guise of different businesses and partners. Then bring in the architects. I'd design this much as a housing development would, ((anyone ever heard of Baxtor in NC??)) planning out shops, homes and town houses- using as much of the existing structures as possible. The main architectural additions would be a town square, a large victorian bed and breakfast, and lots of, as well as a convention center, discreetly done in a victorian facade and designed to have multiple uses. ((IE: a sports rink, concert hall, ect....))  At the same time would begin the marketing. Going to Steapunks the world over and telling them what I'm doing and inviting them to purchase property with us. If they want to open a business with us as well, I would offer discounts. ((this insures that what money isn't granted from an institution or company can be repaid to the initial investors)) I would try and make the homes as customizable as possible and focus on allowing each to be unique. ((No cookie-cutter track-mansions please!))

As people move their homes and businesses to my new town, I would begin another marketing campaign- this one aimed at tourists to come and visit. In the end- my goal would be to achieve a town similar to Rothenburg ob der Tauber (( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothenburg_ob_der_Tauber ))  A place where people live work and commute, but is also a big tourist attraction. To further promote the town I would have weekend "faires" similar to the ren faire in summer and hire actors- likely local towns people- to give tours and generally create merriment. I'd host large balls/parties for the major holidays. I'd lend out the convention center at discount rates to steampunk groups to invite larger conventions ((such as SPWF)) to come to town, making up the money by charging a non discounted rate to more tourist-ie companies who wish to hold conventions there. The same goes for shows.

Income brought by tourism would fund the town's upkeep as well as a private educational system ((private as in it's public for the locals and out of town students would have to pay a tuition- similar to CAPA Highschool here in Pgh. )) that would focus on math, science, english and the arts ((sports would be available, but they would not be a major focus the way they are in most public schools)).

In the end, we could create a viable and financially self sufficient town and the previous locals- I would think- would welcome the capitol and community investment.

I think that covers the basics of a fairly solid prospect? What says you?

[Theophilus Saxe]

A bulletin just released by the US Dept. of Agriculture that may be of some interest to those pursuing a rural steampunk idea.

http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/Home.html

The pertinent entry is under this link on the page.

(June 3, 2010) Agriculture Secretary Vilsack and Small Business Administrator Mills Announce Agreement To Stimulate Rural Business Creation and Expansion

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

I think that covers the basics of a fairly solid prospect? What says you?

I think this is a pretty solid model, but there are a few concerns I have...

Basically, it is hard to start something from scratch, and go so big right from the outset. It seems to me that things have a better chance of succeeding if they start smaller and then grow organically. I've seen no end of big, well-funded projects that have some initial momentum and do well, but struggle to get a stable community and eventually stagnate. If you start with a small community and let it grow gradually, you don't have as much initial risk, it is easier to start, and it has a better prospect of decent longevity.

How do you remedy this? Well, if you can find some VC, that would be a huge help. Using some of that money and maybe legal loopholes to buy up scads of land and then give it away free to anybody willing to develop it and live on it would be a great way to jumpstart things. Getting a sizeable and committed starting group would be very important, and making sure that some baseline rules were agreed upon by all.

I would be a willing participant if it was in an area close to me, but I don't think I would abandon my current location without an extremely compelling opportunity. That said, there are many people who are probably not as tied down. As well, I might be traveling (temporarily) for school and if something along these lines existed I would be very tempted to choose a nearby university.

[heavyporker]

I have to agree: making farming the main profession in the steampunk town is not recommended in my opinion.

 A community garden, however, I would really recommend and heartily support. Heck, even one acre alone, should be easy enough for a riding mower (fairly affordable, even for one person, but especially from a pool of investment) to handle, properly modded up ( I think they come with hitches and can pull a small tiller, scatter-sower, etc.) but is small enough to someone to go out and hoe or sow or fertilize a particular patch that needs tending to in a hour or so. And one acre should be more than enough to furnish a significant portion of the group's fresh-food needs.

 Also, an orchard would is a good possibility to get started. Mmm, apples. Not to mention the other fruits. I bet as a community, we could do a long greenhouse that encloses one or two rows of "heightened-requirement" fruit trees like oranges or avocados and so on that would be able to get through a winter, especially with some hot air piped in from the exhaust of a steam engine or two from adjacent workshops.

 With the internet, tradeskill professions can easily handle their business, and we can make it so that OUR post office is robust enough to handle all these packages. Heh! And with a pool of tradeskills, we can easily justify commerical-level hardware and high-output engines. Can you imagine a big-ass coal-fired steam engine with a few belts going all over the place?

 And have you seen the camper/trailer projects on this forum? I bet several of us only need "just-that-little-more-reason" justification to go and get started on our own campers. So with some of us going for campers, the need for property investment is lessened slightly in the short term, as we can get together without requiring multiple residential buildings.

 Let's see... one barn gathering together the tradeskills and that engine, lower-requirement tradeskills working in second and third levels of barn, the long greenhouse adjacent to that barn and sharing the heat, the community garden also adjacent to that barn or greenhouse. The farmhouse as community headquarters, perhaps communal storage and communications nexus, especially since it most likely will water/electrical hardpoints. Multiple windmills can be put up, heck, put one by the barn, by the farmhouse, and one at the tent/camper/trailer line. The campers could ring the community garden, or on the farm trail from barn to farmhouse to outside road.

 Sheesh, guys, we could start an entire steampunk community on one farm, even a fixer-upper! We really don't need to start an entire steampunk village in one go.

 The idea of taking over an old coal-mining town is pretty appealing, though, especially since we might be able to "liberate" some abandoned mines and repurpose them, possibly. Sure, we'd need to be really on the ball about tunnel maintenance, but wow!

[19th Century Space Pilot]

Just be careful, in all your plotting, not to run afoul of government legislation...