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Author Topic: The Club of the Damned- the Fortean Society  (Read 17281 times)
von Adler
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« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2009, 03:56:05 pm »

i am a rock climber my self, and i have to admit im not entirely sure why i do it, because im fully aware that if i make the tinyest mistake at any point that could be it!

I used to be a freeclimber in the most extreme sense, forgoing anchors, safety ropes and all the rest of the safety gear in favour of total freedom on the rock. For me, it was partially "because it was there" but also partially about conquering my own fear of heights and mastering my body to the point of relying completely on my skills in climbing and assessing the route (I never climbed anything I wasn't sure about, despite doing some very gnarly routes occasionally). Then I hurt my back rather badly in another pursuit entirely, and not being suicidal, I have since toned down my climbing a lot, but I have to say that every time I go near a rock face, I scan it for holds and routes, climbing it in my my mind if not in body. I still lust after that sense of extreme accomplishment of coming out alive and achieving some sort of a zen state (if that makes any sense).
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2009, 12:45:56 am »

Hmm.. its gotten rather too quiet for my liking in here!

Whatabout devils and the such, anyone got any thought?
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Sulecen
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« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2009, 05:59:20 am »

Are we speaking of a specific classification of daemons, or the lot of them?
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« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2009, 04:25:14 am »

Other than the psychological sort of 'demon' I have no experience to speak of on the matter. However those that are just in your own head are terrifying enough.
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« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2009, 09:46:25 am »

What I think to be a classic Fortean tale- in that what at the time I thought must have been 'supernatural' was more normal and widely seen. I was a child, about ten, getting ready for bed, when a green round object floated across the sky outside. I thought it was aliens, but it seems lots of people saw it, and in spite of what I took to be it's unusual colouring, it was in fact a meteor.

     Am I correct in understanding that Charles Fort's interest was in not so much bizarre happenings, but WHY we think they are bizarre?
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« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2009, 11:44:53 am »

Hey, relatively new to the forums and found this to be a very interesting thread.

I have had a few unexplained experiences which I will relate to you, but first I want you to know that I am a sceptic. I believe in getting facts not just saying its so cos you want it to be. nd I get very annoyed at science people when they say its a proven theory, as it cant possibly be proven if its still a theory!

Anyway, I have dreams that seem to be prophetic. I have had two of them. I dreamt about Princess Diana for about three nights before she died, then they stopped. I had never dreamt about her before. She was campaigning to get the land mines dealt with and I was there with her (in my dream). She wanted to talk to me to tell me something important. I believe she would have if she had lived.

Also, and this one is a little gory... I dreamt about a girl, sometimes it was me, sometimes I was watching from the trees, she was being attaked in a forest. It was horrible, and again it lasted for about three nights. It stopped when I an old friend was found dead in a forest.

Now I get worried every time I dream about someone...

Also on the ghost front, I was working lates many years ago. I would come home at 2-3am. I got a creepy feeling when I came through the front door and it lasted untill I got through the living room and onto the stairs. A friend told me that it was a ghost and I needed to tell it to leave as it was dead and didnt belong here anymore. I thought it was hokey, I mean, seriously? So I carried on believeing the creepy feeling was in my head, untill one day I felt the pressence of an angry man following me, and just before I got to the stairs I could have sworn Id been stabbed in the back. The next day I told him to leave as he was dead and didnt belong. He left, havnt felt him since...

And Im a sceptic...
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Atterton
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« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2009, 11:47:45 am »

Sure you are. You should probably look up exactly what is meant with the term scientific theory.
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JohnSix
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« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2009, 12:16:13 pm »

Remember Heliocentrism is only a theory.  Wink
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Atterton
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« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2009, 12:19:01 pm »

Indeed, actually many things indicate everything in fact revolves around me.  Wink
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Sulecen
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« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2009, 04:07:00 am »

Other than the psychological sort of 'demon' I have no experience to speak of on the matter. However those that are just in your own head are terrifying enough.

Well mayhap such deamons in our heads as you say have in fact somewhat informed our belief in their supernatural existence? Being possessed seems a good way to explain with someone who might develop certain psychological problems such as Terret's syndrom or what not.
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Herr Döktor
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« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2009, 10:37:03 am »

     Am I correct in understanding that Charles Fort's interest was in not so much bizarre happenings, but WHY we think they are bizarre?


The best explanation of Charles Fort's thinking is in the back of the Fortean Times every month, and is reproduced from their website below:

Quote from: Fortean Times website
Born of Dutch stock in Albany, New York, Fort spent many years researching scientific literature in the New York Public Library and the British Museum Library. He marshalled his evidence and set forth his philosophy in The Book of the Damned (1919), New Lands (1923), Lo! (1931), and Wild Talents (1932).

He was sceptical of scientific explanations, observing how scientists argued according to their own beliefs rather than the rules of evidence and that inconvenient data was ignored, suppressed, discredited or explained away. He criticised modern science for its reductionism, its attempts to define, divide and separate. Fort's dictum "One measures a circle beginning anywhere" expresses instead his philosophy of Continuity in which everything is in an intermediate and transient state between extremes.

He had ideas of the Universe-as-organism and the transient nature of all apparent phenomena, coined the term 'teleportation', and was perhaps the first to speculate that mysterious lights seen in the sky might be craft from outer space. However, he cut at the very roots of credulity: "I conceive of nothing, in religion, science or philosophy, that is more than the proper thing to wear, for a while."


More here, have a loook, it's almost as good as the magazine!

Smiley
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2009, 12:38:53 pm »

An open question for open minds (or those with a crowbar to open mine, which might be a bit stuck):
As I understand it, science demands that a phenomenon should be repeatable, and measurable, to qualify for investigation.
But those requirements are based on the assumption that everything in creation can be influenced by human beings, somehow.

Is it a valid assumption?

Is mine even a valid question or have I misunderstood something?
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« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2009, 01:40:56 pm »

Hmm, to get a bit 'quantum' here, I seem to recall that the act of observation may be a factor in the occurrence of very small events...

But I digress, Miss Briton, I think you make a valid point- if an event occurred that was visible, but only one person saw it, and it left no tangible evidence, no photographs were taken, no impact on it's surroundings that could be measured at a later date, we'd have to take his word for it...

If a tree falls in an empty forest, does it make a sound?  Wink
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JohnSix
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« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2009, 01:57:19 pm »

As I understand it, science demands that a phenomenon should be repeatable, and measurable, to qualify for investigation.
But those requirements are based on the assumption that everything in creation can be influenced by human beings, somehow.

Is it a valid assumption?

Is mine even a valid question or have I misunderstood something?
Well sort of.
You're very close.
Repeatability is a huge problem in researching the paranormal. (especially for ghosts and hauntings.) If ghosts do exist it may well be impossible to create them in a lab.
How ever remember science also operates on stuff outside a lab, take astronomy or meteorology.

If one of these disciplines obverse a previously unknown phenomenon and wish to see it again they would look for similar conditions in a similar location and wait and see if it happens again.

To my knowledge there has never been a proper study on the conditions necessary for a ghost to form.

As for measurablity: if you can observe it you can measure it.

If a tree falls in an empty forest, does it make a sound?
Answer: Yes if the laws of physics hold for that area of forest.
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MWBailey
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« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2009, 02:03:30 am »

Indeed, actually many things indicate everything in fact revolves around me.  Wink

*ducks as venus flies past, nearly braining him* dagraddit!
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Herr Döktor
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« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2009, 11:45:45 am »

If a tree falls in an empty forest, does it make a sound?
Answer: Yes if the laws of physics hold for that area of forest.

And that's why the philosophy department is always a long way from the physics department, at most universities, anyway...

Wink
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helios
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« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2009, 12:05:36 pm »

If a tree falls, and it hits a mime, does anyone care?
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« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2009, 12:42:30 pm »

That poor mime was screaming for days, eventually I had to put him out of my misery- the sudden lack of silence was deafening.
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helios
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« Reply #93 on: August 30, 2009, 12:46:36 pm »

So, you?
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Mr Peter Harrow, Esq
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« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2009, 02:02:41 pm »

Some unexplainable phenomena are being explained. For example it has been recently discovered that a form of macular degeneration of the eye can leave suffers processing visual images as gargoyles or demons, which would explain the existence of such images reproduced in art in widely separated cultures. Another form has the faulty processing resulting in the perception of people in anachronistic clothing, which suggests a link to ghost stories, of course it may just be steampunk meet.

Does potential explanation spoil the enjoyment of such phenomena?
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« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2009, 02:13:06 pm »

That sounds rather odd, do you have references to those studies?
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Victoria The Mistress
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« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2009, 03:33:52 pm »

How very strange - I was folding washing earlier, whilst ruminating on the Influencing thoughts / Universe and everything thread, and actually had the debate going on in my mind as to whether if you cannot prove something, it is therefore impossible in "scientific" terms. Then I decided I'd just have a quick browse as I passed my computer, and for the first time in months I decided to actually look at the threads in here.....

And this thread perfectly mirrors the things that were running around my head!

So, as a great respector of the scientific phenomena of coincidence, I would like to join this club as I feel somewhat drawn here by forces beyond my control  Grin

Seriosly though, very interesting debate going on here.

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Mr Peter Harrow, Esq
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« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2009, 06:46:18 pm »

That sounds rather odd, do you have references to those studies?
[/quote

I came across it at an SF Convention in Cambridge earlier this month, a panel of scientists and editor of one if the major science magazines were discussing recent interesting developments in science. I believe Saga Magazine also have an article. Much hilarity ensued when I pointed out to the Convention that I was merely an artifact of their collective eye disease.
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Atterton
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« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2009, 07:07:42 pm »

I can imagine an disease which distorts the way you percieve people´s facial feature, making them look demonic. The "old clothes" one sounds rather more unlikely. Will it make me see people in togas? Will it make me see people in togas if I´m in China? I guess I´ll see if it shows up in any science magazines.
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« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2009, 07:13:19 pm »

Count me and the boy in Smiley
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