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Author Topic: The Club of the Damned- the Fortean Society  (Read 18600 times)
Herr Döktor
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Herr Döktor, and friend.


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« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2009, 07:10:09 pm »

I'm reliable informed that by setting the height of a combined harvester's blades to a lower level that the bent stalks within a crop circle can be cut as efficiently as standing stalks- that's how wind damaged crops are cut- but some farmers would rather not take the ten minutes to do this, and rather like the publicity that they receive by complaining of the vandalism!

Smiley
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MWBailey
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"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2009, 10:11:02 pm »


Yes much of science is theoretical but that by no means implies that they are just guessing. There is alot we do know about the universe.
They use verifiable equations and such based on what we do know.

And science isn't as dogmatic as some people think it is. It's very open to change by it's nature.
If you have clearly, verifiable, repeatable evidence a new theory will be accepted.


This brings to the fore in my mind the unfortunate fact that, often, people who have lived to see old theories discarded in light of new evidence tend to adopt the attitude that Science is a waste of time and a collection of convenient explanations presented as truth. I have subbed and taught long enough to have covered for science teachers both in the late nineties and just this past year; just in that short a time, science textbooks have become wildly obsolete and new ones have had to be written-- three times!

The unfortunate effect of such occurrences is the situation that I have just described, wherein the worth of science is called into question. If we could  get pedagogy to stop presenting science as concrete, we might be able to avoid such rampant distrust of the discipline.
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Herr Döktor
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« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2009, 10:20:57 pm »

I remember, several years ago, a lady writing to the South Coast local paper the Argus- she went to great lengths explaining that the weather we have today was nothing like the weather of her youth, and blamed 'scientists' who kept 'shooting rockets into space'!

So, there you have it: all our problems are down to the thoughtless meddling of SCIENTISTS! Smiley
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2009, 12:14:27 am »

The unfortunate effect of such occurrences is the situation that I have just described, wherein the worth of science is called into question. If we could  get pedagogy to stop presenting science as concrete, we might be able to avoid such rampant distrust of the discipline.
I agree.
The scientific method should be taught better and shown to be a process rather than stagnant facts.
In secondary school science there was like a single page on the scientific method and rest of the book was just bland facts. (most of which I learned weren't strictly true when I reached college.)

Quote
I remember, several years ago, a lady writing to the South Coast local paper the Argus- she went to great lengths explaining that the weather we have today was nothing like the weather of her youth, and blamed 'scientists' who kept 'shooting rockets into space'!

So, there you have it: all our problems are down to the thoughtless meddling of SCIENTISTS! Smiley
Recently I read a blog entry wherein a woman was angry at Nasa for planing to crash an impactor into the Moon.
She was furious that Nasa neglected to ask the moon's permission.
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Atterton
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« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2009, 12:26:35 am »

I think they should have done so too. They could have gone "Hey Moon, if you have a problem with this, blink twice."
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Herr Klinger
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Hmmm... Must shoot better photos...


« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2009, 04:42:12 am »

http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm


Of course, all of us logical people know shooting things at the moon is fruitless.....
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MWBailey
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"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2009, 06:43:56 am »

I was referring to this bit which I think was the conclusion the experimenters reached:
Quote
The people performing the test thought it was possible for skeptics to actually not allow things to happen, sort of like the bit about simply observing something and changing the outcome.

I don't think you can fairly conclude that skeptics block paranormal occurrences when there is no definitive evidence that such occurrences actually happen in that location.

You also can't fairly discount such experiences as the "believers" reported just because a group of skeptics did not experience them. Lack of evidence does not necessarily indicate nonexistence.
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2009, 02:11:29 pm »

You also can't fairly discount such experiences as the "believers" reported just because a group of skeptics did not experience them. Lack of evidence does not necessarily indicate nonexistence.

But I wasn't concluding it. I was offering a different explanation which hadn't been excluded/
I feel that this explanation is more likely because it relies on know and understood psychological effects and the fact that people can be wrong, where as the other explanation relies on unknown and unobserved (possibly unobservable) effects.
So unless this study provides some kind of evidence that excludes the natural explanation, Occam's razor is clear.

Lack of evidence doesn't indeed indicate non-existence. But a consistent lack of positive evidence despite nearly a hundred years of serious research coupled with evidence for more likely explanations kinda does indicate non-existence.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2009, 09:59:29 pm »

most likely they are looking for evidence in the wrong place!

Crop Circles.. Prehistory?! what nonesense (okay here i really come into my own my true and real calling is - Prehistory i have devoted the past six years of my life to studing it! so appologies in advance if i get a bit.. um argumentative, i am not being an idiot, i just find it hard to express my self in textual form!)

Crop circles COULD not have been produced in prehistoric times simply because intensive farming back then, by our standards today was not! their feilds would have been very very small indeed infact you can still see the ridge and furrow marks in the country side today. cup and ring marks where probably envisioned as a side product of farming ... as a result of rotten grain and accidental cultivation of ergot and/or other fungi, causing the consumer to suffer hallucenogenic entoptic visions (I have an entire parper in the works for this if any one is acctualy interested)

For evidence of aliens (although i think this is total nonsense, but refus to disregard any ideas untill its proven otherwise) you are better looking at cursus monuments they are found ONLY in britain and ireland, and the dorset cursus happens to be the largest (area not height) 'ritual' structure currently known in the whole entire world - anywhere. these structures contain nothing, very few artefacts have ever been found in them, further more they are so large that unless you know what you are looking for they can only really be seen effectivley from the air. Strange huh.

I  have my own ideas about cursus monuments but the explanation that would be given by 'fringe' archaeologists for these would be something along the lines landing strips for aliiens/ gots etc. So much so that these monuments are often referred to as the britis nazca lines.

further more if we look into the future a few thousand years or so, we start to see huge images carved out of chalk, again these are only really visable from a distance of from the sky.. markers to aliens? maybe so.

DISCLAIMER: I dont acctualy beilve any of this stuff about prehistoric messages to aliens, I'm just expressing an opinion!
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"
--Some archaeologist
Herr Döktor
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Herr Döktor, and friend.


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« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2009, 10:07:16 pm »

I thought the only truly 'ancient' chalk carving was the Uffington white horse? The rest being cut in the 17th century or later?
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2009, 10:15:57 pm »

This is kind of a touchy subject. Alot of them are from the 17th-18th centurys, however many of them are alot more difficult to date and academics have been arguing about them for years upon years! personaly I think that alot if not some of them MUST be as old as the Uffington horse (go see it its really worth a trip if you can go) simply because people never just do things once! if one guy or tribe carves a huge thing in the ground his or her neighbors automaticaly want a better one!
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Herr Döktor
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Herr Döktor, and friend.


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« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2009, 10:22:31 pm »

I've been to Uffington several times, I usually try to take in the Rollright stones while I'm there; more recently I had a look at the Cherhill White Horse; in my many trips West I've seen most of the chalk figures down that way!

I'm inclined to agree that it's probably 50/50 between old carvings being 'renewed' and the local Lord wanting an eyecatcher, and I can't help but admire them no matter how old they may be!

Smiley
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2009, 10:36:48 pm »

Aye I say the same about rock are and graffiti that has been done as an art form rather than midless vandalism. I tell you all something that is truly a marvel to wonder at and it isa bizzore mystery to me as to the working of the human animal, i cannot recomend enough going to ilkeley moor to look at the rock carvings there, every inch of stone at the quarry is COVERD in art from the late bronze age right through to modern day.

If any one has read Neil gaimens American gods, and can recall the bit about meeting points on ley lines, you will understand why i find this place so fascinating
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Dr cornelius quack
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« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2009, 11:26:20 pm »

I'm not too impressed by ley line arguments. If I were herding sheep across a basicly flat landscape to market then I'd take a straight line course. Even the odd hill in the way would not make me detour any great distance. At a time before wholesale land enclosure or improved roads the "old straight track" is just the most economical route. Settlements, Churches, Temples, Pubs, Marker stones along the way?  Well, Duh? Yeah!!

Try drawing a number of random dots on a piece of paper, 50 or so, then get out your ruler and spend some time finding alignments in your array. It's nigh on impossible not to.

"Yeah, but some of these lines are hundreds of miles long!!"

Sure, The longer the baseline, the more likely you are to find 'significant sites' along them.

Did you know that all of Sir Christopher Wren's London churches anlign perfectly to a logarithmic spiral?

But, then again, so do all the other churches, all the lamposts, every discarded coke can, in fact any set of related objects that you care to name,actually, any set of unrelated ojects that you care to name.

Ain't geometry wonderful?
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2009, 11:37:14 pm »

Oh i totaly agree, I just like neil gaimens idea of them.

Although i am a true beliver that people are drawn to certain areas by something. what is it in human nature that drives us towards places we know are dangerous? and why do we place sop much value upon objects that have come from these places.

I Agin give you an example derived from the depth of pre-history in britain, many of the early neolithic flint mines that have been discoverd have been in treacherous areas such as at the top of mountains, when the same materials that have been extracted from can be abtained at the same quality and quantity from much less dangerous places.

A more modern example for this could be seen as expeditions too the moom, or samples taken from the antarctic,  or people such as my self who are driven to go to places  which are life threartening to get there, only to come back again? human curiosity? Andrennaline seeking or something more. Further more in the old stories of heores and adventures, in the myths and legends the main charachter will often travel into the depths of hell or into the lair of a dangerouds beast.

Any weird and wonderfull thoughts?
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Dr cornelius quack
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« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2009, 11:52:01 pm »

One needs to look at the sequence of events before drawing any conclusions about such matters as resource extraction. If the only source of a material that you know of is halfway up a mountain, then that is where you go to get it. If you subsequenly find the same stuff somewhere safer, then you would go there. But even that does not take into account all the factors. You'd be reluctant to just write off any investment of time and effort that you'd put into the original site. Did you build a track/dig a mine/clear a forest?

Oh yes! As far as that 'absence of evidence' line is concerned, it's true enough as far as it goes, but continued absence of evidence in the face of repeated testing does tend to skew the balance of probabilities somewhat.

I'm a scientific sort of chap by nature. Give me some evidence in support of your claim that can be reproduced and verified and I'll believe what you say.

Dr. Q.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2009, 11:55:40 pm »

which claim? ( have made a few)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 11:59:22 pm by Archaeo_fozz » Logged
Dr cornelius quack
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Arrant Carney. Phmebian Cultural Attache.


« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2009, 12:07:51 am »

Claims generally, not anything specificly aimed at what you said.

Also, I'd like to see a study into the correlation of the incidence of crop circles with the provision of cheap minibuses by the students union.

Being both skeptical and a cynic when surrounded by 'true believers' is such fun.

Dr. Q.
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Herr Döktor
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Herr Döktor, and friend.


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« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2009, 12:14:47 am »

To me, the Fortean philosophy is to keep an open mind to the possibility that 'true believers' of every stripe can be wrongfooted at any time by an anomalous result, fact or discovery; including any other anomalous result, fact or discovery that comes along after the 'new truth' has been accepted.

Something like that, anyway...

Just found a quote that sums it up quite nicely: "People with a psychological need to believe in marvels are no more prejudiced and gullible than people with a psychological need not to believe in marvels"
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2009, 12:14:58 am »

Ahh fair enough, the stuff about prehistoric people going out of their way to obtain materials from obscenley dangerous place is acctualy a proven fact... although if you wishj to know more i will PM you as it is incredibly INCREDIBLY long winded and filled with technical jargon.

Yes being a skeptic around 'true belivers' anthing is very fun, especially when they refse out right to listen to anyones ides but their own. 40% of my degree was cultural, religious and theological studies, and im far better at arguing a point in person!.. to upset people in that course even more i was the only male in a room full of uppity femenists for the most part... but I digress.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 12:26:30 am by Archaeo_fozz » Logged
Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2009, 12:17:27 am »

I Utterly Agree with you on every point there Herr Doktor... unfortunately forums rules forbid me from spouting more academia here.
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Dr cornelius quack
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Arrant Carney. Phmebian Cultural Attache.


« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2009, 12:29:05 am »

I'd very much like to see that study. If what you say is true, then the interesting question revolves around what the motivation to do so may have been. Not something that we may ever get a definitive answer on, but one might speculate along the lines of 'Rite of Passage/initiation' practices
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2009, 12:34:08 am »

haha.. my dissertation was about it! there are also scores of books written on the subject, once I have my laptop up and running i shall be more than happpy to send you my notes, reading lists, copious essays and many musings and scrawlings (and damn to the depths with that bloody right of passage notion... sodding time bloody team and their ritual buggering everything.. bloody grumble grumble ) ahem sorry about that!
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Dr cornelius quack
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Arrant Carney. Phmebian Cultural Attache.


« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2009, 12:47:03 am »

Carefull!! Major Tinker may be looking in.

Then I'll admit to being puzzled as to why anyone would do something known to be dangerous when a safer alternative was known about.

Mind you, I was a rock climber in my youth so maybe the old 'because it's there' argument applies.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2009, 03:45:13 pm »

i am a rock climber my self, and i have to admit im not entirely sure why i do it, because im fully aware that if i make the tinyest mistake at any point that could be it!

i like to think that there are other forces at work in the world otherwise the world would be rather boring!
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