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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #550 on: July 10, 2012, 02:26:40 pm » |
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I realise the thread has moved on a little, but just on the subject of the Bergmann. Because all the ones I've seen have been quite old and I get a certain industrial vibe from its design, I never would have imagined it making an attractive presentation model. But I think this one turned out quite splendidly. I was reading up on the genteel art of C19th parlor shooting. Plinking in the lounge was quite a popular form of entertainment back then. Some of the small calibre BB guns they used had interesting designs and were sometimes quite ornate. I'm wondering how timeline wise the Schulhof compares with the Prussian Dreyse needle revolver. The needle rifle is (I believe) credited as the first bolt action, but I'm unsure about the workings or date of invention of the pistol. |
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« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:29:52 pm by Argus Fairbrass »
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Have her steamed and brought to my tent!
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Darkhound
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« Reply #551 on: July 10, 2012, 05:33:30 pm » |
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As for the Dreyse needlefire revolvers, von Dreyse began making these curious little striker fired double actions @ 1860, to fire cartridges similar to those used in his Zündnadlegewehr of 1857. A long trigger pull withdrew the striker, rotated the cylinder by a simple ratchet, and dropped the striker. the needle on the striker pierced the paper cartridge and struck the priming compound on the base of the bullet, firing the weapon. The paper cartridge left nothing to eject, and reloading was by turning and removing the cylinder axis pin by the little handle at the front of the frame and removing the cylinder.
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"Stupidity is a curse with which even the Gods struggle in vain. Ignorance we can fix."
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mephit
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« Reply #552 on: July 10, 2012, 08:52:28 pm » |
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Yes, though von Dreyse had introduced the earliest needle-fire rifles some 25 years earlier in the mid '30s and apparently created his first bolt-action mechanism (the first bolt-action of any kind) in '24 when he first started his initial business of manufacturing percussion caps (This '24 mechanism I've yet to find any difinitive information on, though.). So there was plenty of history and development of the bolt-action mechanism to draw on by the early '80s when Schulhof presumably started development. The early problems with bolt-action mechanisms were largely due to the cartridge more than anything else. The mechanism itself is actually pretty simple, especially the early single-shot paper-cartridge locks. Paper, even well waxed and glued, is not very durable or water-resistant. Black powder makes this worse as dampness affects it detrimentally far quicker than it does nitrocellulose. Paper cartridges were also more prone to jamming when loading (even by hand) as the cartridge had to be perfectly aligned or the paper wrapping could be caught by the mechanism and crushed or torn. Finally, the paper allowed for a great deal of gas leakage out of the breach as it burned away, reducing the effective power of the charge. The later 19th century bolt-action weapons like the Gras, Lee & Mauser rifles were materially improved not only by improved manufacturing techniques but also by the far better brass casings that not only withstood the elements better but were easier to load quickly and smoothly and far better at sealing the breach. It's no wonder the design migrated to pistol form fairly early as well. Simpler than the early auto-loaders like the Borchardt, faster firing than any revolver of the day and able to utilize the by this point standard brass cartridges. If not for the introduction of the Mauser C96, the Bergmann and the Luger, these might have had a far greater impact than they ultimately did. It just amazes me that we've so totally forgotten an entire line of evolution in handheld weaponry.
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mephit
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« Reply #553 on: July 10, 2012, 09:29:05 pm » |
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And yet more! Sheesh. Now that I know better what to look for I'm finding even more in this bolt-action vein. Two more makers from the same time frame. I won't bother the thread anymore with them, I promise. For one thing, they aren't nearly so Steampunk to me as the Passler-Seidl or Bittner guns. But I'm amazed at how many people seemed to see promise in the design.
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mephit
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« Reply #554 on: July 10, 2012, 09:42:45 pm » |
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Oh, and Argus, that is a beautiful Bergmann! I usually don't like these for the same reasons you state; i.e., the very industrial feel of the gun most of the time. That one, however really improves the look. The embellishments are absolutely perfect! Where did you find those pictures?
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Carter
Deck Hand
 United Kingdom
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« Reply #555 on: July 16, 2012, 01:59:21 pm » |
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I don't believe anyones mentioned this radical revolver yet |
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'There's no need to be so brass Marshall'
'I think you mean so brash Carter'
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Arvis
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« Reply #556 on: July 16, 2012, 02:22:40 pm » |
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I don't believe anyones mentioned this radical revolver yet I challenge you to quick draw. |
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DAG-NABBIT...I cut it and cut it and cut it... an it's STILL TOO SHORT!
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Carter
Deck Hand
United Kingdom
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« Reply #557 on: July 16, 2012, 03:21:36 pm » |
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I don't believe anyones mentioned this radical revolver yet I challenge you to quick draw. I hope this doesn't mean I've reposted one of you examples sir, if thats the case I apologise  |
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OswaldBastable
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« Reply #558 on: July 16, 2012, 05:06:20 pm » |
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I think he was suggesting how hard it would be to do with that mad french revolver; you'd have less of a holster and more of a bucket (and a limp)
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C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre
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Arvis
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« Reply #559 on: July 16, 2012, 11:49:40 pm » |
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I think he was suggesting how hard it would be to do with that mad french revolver; you'd have less of a holster and more of a bucket (and a limp)
Quite right. I was thinking about how ludicrous a "high noon" gunfight would be where a gun such as this were being employed. My money would go on the six-shooter. (unless of course "radical revolver" is being utilized by "Steampunk RoboCop") At which point all bets are off. |
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Eldrock
Deck Hand
 Canada
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« Reply #560 on: July 17, 2012, 02:32:32 am » |
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I think he was suggesting how hard it would be to do with that mad french revolver; you'd have less of a holster and more of a bucket (and a limp)
Actually, this appears to be a one-off of Spanish manufacture. http://www.horstheld.com/0-Spain.htmChris |
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OswaldBastable
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« Reply #561 on: July 17, 2012, 12:03:22 pm » |
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ahhh my mistake I clearly didnt look at the revolver that closely so I thought it was a Lefaucheux
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 12:05:20 pm by OswaldBastable »
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Eldrock
Deck Hand
Canada
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« Reply #562 on: July 17, 2012, 02:16:45 pm » |
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Ah, yes. I can see the resemblance and why it could cause the mistaken idendity.
Chris
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OswaldBastable
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« Reply #563 on: July 17, 2012, 07:07:40 pm » |
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I now have this story in my head that a Spaniard fell out with with a LeFaucheux armed Frenchman and felt outgunned so had it made special. That would be a shootout worth seeing  |
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #564 on: July 17, 2012, 10:46:39 pm » |
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Oh, and Argus, that is a beautiful Bergmann! I usually don't like these for the same reasons you state; i.e., the very industrial feel of the gun most of the time. That one, however really improves the look. The embellishments are absolutely perfect! Where did you find those pictures?
Sorry Mephit, way late response on this one. I can't find the original site but this must be the chap responsible. Check out the cute little miniature.  http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Ronnie.htm |
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Nathaniel Flood Harwick
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« Reply #565 on: July 18, 2012, 12:16:57 am » |
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I came across this video which has some interesting guns including one that is a mish mash of parts from a revolver, a bolt action rifle, and an Ak-47.
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Too many ideas, not enough time.
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Major Willoughby Chase
Board Moderator
Zeppelin Admiral
United Kingdom
Awesomologist
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« Reply #566 on: July 18, 2012, 08:32:25 am » |
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Quite a lot of post 1914 firearms in there, as well as some nice pre'14 pieces. Just a reminder, if setting off on a discussion of the video, of our informal Post 1914 exclusion. Feel free to wax lyrical about any of the others. |
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The Kilted Yaksman
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« Reply #567 on: July 19, 2012, 02:27:22 am » |
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I don't believe anyones mentioned this radical revolver yet Oh, really? My apologies if this has been posted before... |
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire
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OswaldBastable
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« Reply #568 on: July 19, 2012, 02:29:01 am » |
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I don't believe anyones mentioned this radical revolver yet Oh, really? My apologies if this has been posted before... Is the tripod sold separately?  |
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D.Oakes
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« Reply #569 on: July 19, 2012, 04:03:00 am » |
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I don't believe anyones mentioned this radical revolver yet Oh, really? My apologies if this has been posted before... I believe it has been posted before....but I am not complaining about seeing it again. It looks rather beautiful, even though it is a bit...uhmm...impractical perhaps. |
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #570 on: July 19, 2012, 07:04:40 am » |
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Judging by how unwieldy it looks, I suspect if you could hit the back of a barn door with it you're a better man than I. Although as a general scare tactic I'm sure it would be highly effective. This does feature some post 1914 models, but for those that haven't seen it I do recommend giving this chaps blog a gander. http://peashooter85.tumblr.com/ |
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D.Oakes
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« Reply #571 on: July 20, 2012, 01:25:11 am » |
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mephit
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« Reply #572 on: July 20, 2012, 06:05:44 am » |
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19mm?! That's .75 calibre! And pinfire means it had a metallic cartridge so minimal gas leakage from the breach. Add the rifling (which means the bullet had to fit the barrel tightly) and the odd grip angle to the sealed breach and that beast is a total wristbreaker! Gorgeous, though. |
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D.Oakes
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« Reply #573 on: July 21, 2012, 02:54:37 am » |
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19mm?! That's .75 calibre! And pinfire means it had a metallic cartridge so minimal gas leakage from the breach. Add the rifling (which means the bullet had to fit the barrel tightly) and the odd grip angle to the sealed breach and that beast is a total wristbreaker! Gorgeous, though. My flare gun is a 26.5mm, it is not that bad with a lower velocity type round as what the .75 would have been. Okay, let me rephrase that...YOU NEED TO BRACE YOURSELF....but it is AWESOME!!!!!  |
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mephit
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« Reply #574 on: July 21, 2012, 06:13:42 am » |
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My flare gun is a 26.5mm, it is not that bad with a lower velocity type round as what the .75 would have been. Okay, let me rephrase that...YOU NEED TO BRACE YOURSELF....but it is AWESOME!!!!! A flare gun is far lower velocity than any handgun. Many of them only use the primer and the burning of the flare itself as propellant with little or no actual gunpowder in the cartridge. At most, they seem to have a couple grains of powder for a bit of added oomph. Even something as small as a 9mmx19 has 8 to 10 gr of powder and that's a third the size bullet of this monster. This thing is supposed to have had a 2.5" long cartridge! Even with black powder instead of nitrocellulose, that wonderful beast I guarantee would kick harder than a flare gun. |
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